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Old 02-13-2013, 21:07   #641
Syclone538
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
We've been talking for a while, I have long said that many self described atheists do not seem religious, but there are many that are.
...
This post makes me wonder if I've misunderstood you for the last 2 or 3 years.

When you say "atheism is a religion" are you trying to say that some atheists act like atheism is a religion, while for others it's not?
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Old 02-13-2013, 21:10   #642
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Twist it into a pretzel if you have to, but it seems the fear is on your side. Not sure why someone just not committing one way or the other is so discomforting to you.
I'm not twisting anything. There is not a deity that you accept as living or as having lived. You can easily prove me wrong by naming a deity that you accept. There's no fear involved on my part whatsoever; however, I'm not sure why you're so afraid to admit that there is not a deity that you accept -- it's plain for all to see.

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The evangelical atheist approach is humorous though.
Not as amusing as a holier than thou agnostic.

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Old 02-13-2013, 21:15   #643
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...
Either you do *believe*, not "know" or "can prove" or "allow for the possibility of" gods, or you do not. There is absolutely no third option when it comes to whether or not you believe something exists. You either do or you don't. It's completely binary.
...
While I agree, I do sympathize with him on this. I was raised Christian, and started questioning it (to myself only, my mom still has no idea I've questioned it, let alone become atheist) around 12-13 years old or so. I'd say there was a good 10 years that I would not answer if I believe. I wanted there to be a middle ground. I would only answer, I don't know, or I'm not sure.
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
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Old 02-13-2013, 21:25   #644
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...
!=
...
I've seen this cause a lot of confusion.

≠ is much better, though I'm not sure everyone will see it on their computer/phone.
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
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Old 02-13-2013, 21:28   #645
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I truly believe I don't know. That's not a problem for me. Why is it so hard to accept?
...
It's not hard to accept, I'm sure for anyone, but it's not an answer to the question asked.








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If you don't know, then you lack a belief in dieties, while maintaining they are a possibility. Right?
...
Not true. I already explained that I do have a belief concerning deities.
...
Then what is your belief concerning deities?
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...

Last edited by Syclone538; 02-13-2013 at 21:48..
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Old 02-14-2013, 06:31   #646
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Originally Posted by Syclone538 View Post
This post makes me wonder if I've misunderstood you for the last 2 or 3 years.

When you say "atheism is a religion" are you trying to say that some atheists act like atheism is a religion, while for others it's not?

It's not much different than any belief system, there are people that were baptized as Catholics, but aren't practicing, at all, and when asked their faith will reply catholic.

There are some people that identify themselves as atheists that aren't evangelicals, there are some that are.
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Old 02-14-2013, 06:40   #647
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It's not hard to accept, I'm sure for anyone, but it's not an answer to the question asked.
Yes, but the agenda in the question is a little obvious. When asked a question with a digital answer, if that's going to give a dishonest impression, I'll answer it in another way.

It's sorta like being asked, "yes or no, have you stopped beating your wife". Well if you have ever beaten her, a yes or no answer would be appropriate. If you have not beaten her ever, ignore the manipulative demand for a digital answer and clarify.

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Then what is your belief concerning deities?
That maybe there was one or more or maybe there have never been any.

Haven't we covered this ground before.
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Old 02-14-2013, 06:43   #648
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
I'm not twisting anything. There is not a deity that you accept as living or as having lived. You can easily prove me wrong by naming a deity that you accept. There's no fear involved on my part whatsoever; however, I'm not sure why you're so afraid to admit that there is not a deity that you accept -- it's plain for all to see.


Not as amusing as a holier than thou agnostic.

Regards,
-ArtificialGrape
Well at least we are amused. I've explained it quite well, if you don't understand what I've been telling you, or you cannot accept it, it's probably an impasse that we will just have to bypass.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 02-14-2013 at 08:30..
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Old 02-14-2013, 07:57   #649
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Religious Issues
Religious Issues
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:20   #650
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Yes, but the agenda in the question is a little obvious. When asked a question with a digital answer, if that's going to give a dishonest impression, I'll answer it in another way.
It's dishonest for you to admit that you don't actually accept the posit that a deity exists, and therefore, you don't actually believe that a deity exists?

IMHO it's dishonest to dodge the question. There is no agenda in the question other than to point out that as a self-identifying agnostic, you *also* have to lack belief in a deity.

Quote:
It's sorta like being asked, "yes or no, have you stopped beating your wife". Well if you have ever beaten her, a yes or no answer would be appropriate. If you have not beaten her ever, ignore the manipulative demand for a digital answer and clarify.
Except here, we are not talking about something for which a yes or no would be inappropriate. We are talking about something that, for some reason, you apparently think it's dishonest to admit, when the honest thing to do would be to just admit it - especially when it's plain on the face of it that it has to be true that you lack belief in a deity (unless you're not being truthful about being an agnostic. I am not alleging you are not being truthful about that, I am in fact assuming you are being truthful about that - I am just noting it as the case where it would not be true that you lack belief in a deity).

Do you believe a deity has existed? If you can't truly say 'Yes, I believe a deity has existed', then you do not. It's that simple. If you are truly agnostic, the way you describe agnosticism, it has to be the case that you do not believe, whether or not you think it is possible. If you did believe, you would not be agnostic by your own view of agnosticism, you would be a theist.

Precisely how is it dishonest to admit that?
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:27   #651
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Not true. I already explained that I do have a belief concerning deities. What's so hard to accept about that?
Saying that you believe they *could* exist does not answer the question of whether you believe they *do* or *did* exist. What's so hard to answer about the question of if you believe they do/did exist? Saying "it's possible" doesn't address the question. You know this, you're being intentionally thick.

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But do you BELIEVE no deity has ever existed? If not, we might agree much more than I previously thought.
I lack a belief that any dieties have ever existed. I've answered this more than once already. In this very thread.

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Pull up that 2 dimensional graph that has atheism/theism and gnostic/agnostic at perpendicular relationships, it might help.
I don't need any help describing what I believe. Thanks for the condescension, though.

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So, you don't advocate one way or the other? Are you sure?
Absolutely positive, why? I have no problem with you (or anyone else) believing whatever they like and whatever brings them comfort/peace. I will tell you it is illogical to me. I will fight against you legislating your belief into our laws. I will not tell you you're "wrong" for what you believe, though.

If you disagree, please point me to any of my posts that are contradictory to the above.
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:33   #652
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It's dishonest for you to admit that you don't actually accept the posit that a deity exists, and therefore, you don't actually believe that a deity exists?

IMHO it's dishonest to dodge the question.

.......
Try being accurate in your assertions. Then try again if you want.


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I accept that the posit that a deity has existed may be possible. It's also possible that one has not. Live and let live. A first amendment approach is that any person has a right to choose to believe what they want and freely participate, as long as they are not hurting anyone else. Yes there will be differences of opinion on certain positions, such as abortion, but for the most part, there is currently a reasonable accommodation. A woman can get one if they want one. I consider that about as elective as a breast augmentation in the absence of disease. It should be paid for by the individual that wants it.
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:35   #653
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Originally Posted by Syclone538 View Post
I've seen this cause a lot of confusion.

≠ is much better, though I'm not sure everyone will see it on their computer/phone.

Sorry, I'm an IT nerd by profession. I realize I assume knowledge on other people's part in a lot of cases.

For all in this thread "!=" means "does not equal".

Sorry!
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:40   #654
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Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
Saying that you believe they *could* exist does not answer the question of whether you believe they *do* or *did* exist. What's so hard to answer about the question of if you believe they do/did exist? Saying "it's possible" doesn't address the question. You know this, you're being intentionally thick.



I lack a belief that any dieties have ever existed. I've answered this more than once already. In this very thread.



I don't need any help describing what I believe. Thanks for the condescension, though.



Absolutely positive, why? I have no problem with you (or anyone else) believing whatever they like and whatever brings them comfort/peace. I will tell you it is illogical to me. I will fight against you legislating your belief into our laws. I will not tell you you're "wrong" for what you believe, though.

If you disagree, please point me to any of my posts that are contradictory to the above.
I believe in RKBA. You gonna fight me on that too. Better get up to DC, I met with my reps this week on the issue?

[/sarcasm]

Well, it seems that "maybe" is a very difficult concept to grasp.
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:42   #655
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Sorry, I'm an IT nerd by profession. I realize I assume knowledge on other people's part in a lot of cases.

For all in this thread "!=" means "does not equal".

Sorry!
Is there a math or program symbol for "maybe"?
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:48   #656
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Try being accurate in your assertions. Then try again if you want.
Again, avoiding the question (with an accusation of inaccuracy, without explaining any inaccuracy. I don't think I'm being inaccurate. You are welcome to explain exactly why if you disagree, heck, I might even change my mind - I do that kind of thing)


a) Cavalry Doc claims to be an agnostic in a three-state model where the states are in the set {theist, agnostic, atheist}
b) The criteria for being a theist in this model is believing that it is true a deity or deities exist or have existed.
c) Cavalry Doc claims to be an agnostic, therefore he cannot meet the criteria for being a theist.
d) Since the criteria for being a theist is believing that a deity exists or has existed, either Cavalry Doc does not believe that a deity exists or has existed, or Cavalry Doc is a theist in the three state model
e) Assuming that Cavalry Doc is being truthful, it must be true Cavalry Doc does not believe that a deity exists or has existed

What is inaccurate in those assertions, exactly, and if there's nothing inaccurate, why can't you just admit that you do not believe?
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Last edited by void *; 02-14-2013 at 10:01..
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:01   #657
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Originally Posted by void * View Post
Again, avoiding the question.


a) Cavalry Doc claims to be an agnostic in a three-state model where the states are in the set {theist, agnostic, atheist}
b) The criteria for being a theist in this model is believing that it is true a deity or deities exist or have existed.
c) Cavalry Doc claims to be an agnostic, therefore he cannot meet the criteria for being a theist.
d) Since the criteria for being a theist is believing that a deity exists or has existed, either Cavalry Doc does not believe that a deity exists or has existed, or Cavalry Doc is a theist in the three state model
e) Assuming that Cavalry Doc is being truthful, it must be true Cavalry Doc does not believe that a deity exists or has existed

What is inaccurate in those assertions, exactly, and if there's nothing inaccurate, why can't you just admit that you do not believe?
Did you read my response to your last post? At least you could admit you got that wrong, or not, whatever.


If your point is to prove that I'm not a theist, let me save you the trouble. I am not a theist. I am not an atheist.

Does that help at all?

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 02-14-2013 at 10:02..
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:05   #658
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Did you read my response to your last post? At least you could admit you got that wrong, or not, whatever.
Please describe *exactly* what you think I got wrong. Your claim that you accept it as possible a deity exists says nothing about whether or not you *believe* a deity exists.


Quote:
If your point is to prove that I'm not a theist, let me save you the trouble. I am not a theist. I am not an atheist.

Does that help at all?
No, it again just leaves me wondering why you can't just simply admit that you do not believe a deity or deities has existed or does exist.

Again:
a) Cavalry Doc claims to be an agnostic in a three-state model where the states are in the set {theist, agnostic, atheist}
b) The criteria for being a theist in this model is believing that it is true a deity or deities exist or have existed.
c) Cavalry Doc claims to be an agnostic, therefore he cannot meet the criteria for being a theist.
d) Since the criteria for being a theist is believing that a deity exists or has existed, either Cavalry Doc does not believe that a deity exists or has existed, or Cavalry Doc is a theist in the three state model
e) Assuming that Cavalry Doc is being truthful, it must be true Cavalry Doc does not believe that a deity exists or has existed

What is inaccurate in those assertions, exactly, and if there's nothing inaccurate, why can't you just admit that you do not believe?

You say you're not a theist. Therefore, you must not believe a deity exists or has existed. Why can't you just admit that? Is the world going to end if you write words along the lines of "While I believe it is possible that a deity exists or has existed, I currently do not believe that a deity has existed or does exist"?
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:06   #659
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Well, it seems that "maybe" is a very difficult concept to grasp.
No, maybe is a very simple concept to grasp. It simply doesn't answer the question asked. Repeatedly. It's not that I don't "like" or "understand" the answer - it's that the answer is nonsensical within the context of the question asked.

I'm done with you here. You seem to be incapable of answering honest questions put to you, and as such, it makes discussion of what each of us believe impossible.

See you around the other fora, at least you *seem* to be able to answer questions posed to you there.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:10   #660
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While I agree, I do sympathize with him on this. I was raised Christian, and started questioning it (to myself only, my mom still has no idea I've questioned it, let alone become atheist) around 12-13 years old or so. I'd say there was a good 10 years that I would not answer if I believe. I wanted there to be a middle ground. I would only answer, I don't know, or I'm not sure.
I empathize with that scenario, I really do.

However, "I don't know" in the context of "Do you believe gods exist or have existed?" is only honest if you're actually saying that you lack the capacity/ability to determine if you hold a belief.
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