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Old 02-13-2013, 15:23   #621
Cavalry Doc
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Originally Posted by void * View Post
The math used to model the laws doesn't have any meaning at that particular point. It's somewhat like a divide by zero.

That's a different ball of wax than CD's statement that the laws of physics as we know them today did not apply. Our understanding of the laws of physics may not be complete, or it may not be possible to describe that particular state using any mathematical model, etc. Saying that it means 'physical laws as we know them did not apply' is a stretch.
Very well explained, and that points out that we just don't understand or know how it all began.

Nothing wrong with that.
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Old 02-13-2013, 15:29   #622
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Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
And none of that addresses whether you believe gods exist or not. Knowing != believing.
I truly believe I don't know. That's not a problem for me. Why is it so hard to accept?

Quote:


It causes me no pain to accept that I don't *know* whether gods exist, either. What's your point?
What do you believe though? Do you believe no deity has ever existed?

Quote:

I certainly have no idea, nor do I care. Why are bringing this up? It's certainly not part of the discussion at hand.
Sure it is, just answer, it'll be ok.
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Old 02-13-2013, 15:30   #623
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Very well explained, and that points out that we just don't understand or know how it all began.
No one had made that claim to begin with (well, excepting creationists - scientists have suggested many things, but not one of them has yet met the bar of having enough evidence, and/or are technically but not practically falsifiable, yet.). So what's your point here?
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Old 02-13-2013, 15:35   #624
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
I truly believe I don't know. That's not a problem for me. Why is it so hard to accept?
If you don't know, then you lack a belief in dieties, while maintaining they are a possibility. Right?



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What do you believe though? Do you believe no deity has ever existed?
Yep, I've stated several times that I'm an agnostic atheist. I lack a belief in gods, but I don't claim to know that there are no gods. I'm relatively certain I've even told you this.


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Sure it is, just answer, it'll be ok.
I did answer, I have no idea what motivates people to do what they do, ESPECIALLY when it comes to religious/theistic opinions. Why?
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Old 02-13-2013, 15:39   #625
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No one had made that claim to begin with (well, excepting creationists - scientists have suggested many things, but not one of them has yet met the bar of having enough evidence, and/or are technically but not practically falsifiable, yet.). So what's your point here?
That there should be no problem accepting that we don't know how the universe began.

We don't know how life began either. We are pretty sure there was a beginning. The first few seconds of the BBT seem to describe conditions incompatible with life as we know it.

No big. Dinner is coming up shortly, what are you going to have?
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Old 02-13-2013, 15:46   #626
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
That there should be no problem accepting that we don't know how the universe began.
There isn't. You appear to be alleging there is, I'm asking why you are making that allegation. It's been stated several times that the BBT doesn't make such a claim. It 'not being a problem accepting that we don't know how the universe began' is not in dispute - except, perhaps, with the creationists.

It's the same with evolution. The theory of evolution does not claim to model how life arose - just how it changed once it existed. There is currently no accepted model for abiogenesis (because none of the proposed models have sufficient evidential support & testing), so there is, again, no problem admitting we don't know. The only people who seem to have a problem admitting we don't know are the creationists.

So, again, what's your point?
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Old 02-13-2013, 15:51   #627
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If you don't know, then you lack a belief in dieties, while maintaining they are a possibility. Right?
Not true. I already explained that I do have a belief concerning deities.

What's so hard to accept about that?


Quote:
Yep, I've stated several times that I'm an agnostic atheist. I lack a belief in gods, but I don't claim to know that there are no gods. I'm relatively certain I've even told you this.
But do you BELIEVE no deity has ever existed? If not, we might agree much more than I previously thought.

Pull up that 2 dimensional graph that has atheism/theism and gnostic/agnostic at perpendicular relationships, it might help.

Quote:
I did answer, I have no idea what motivates people to do what they do, ESPECIALLY when it comes to religious/theistic opinions. Why?
So, you don't advocate one way or the other? Are you sure?
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Old 02-13-2013, 15:56   #628
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Not true. I already explained that I do have a belief concerning deities.

What's so hard to accept about that?
'Does Cavalry Doc believe he knows whether or not there are deities?' is a different statement than 'Does Cavalry Doc believe in deities?'

You could, for instance, believe you don't know, while believing that there are.

Or, you could believe you don't know, while *not* believing that there are.

I believe you're a smart enough guy to make that distinction - so my question is, why do you continually avoid making it?
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Old 02-13-2013, 16:13   #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by void * View Post
'Does Cavalry Doc believe he knows whether or not there are deities?' is a different statement than 'Does Cavalry Doc believe in deities?'

You could, for instance, believe you don't know, while believing that there are.

Or, you could believe you don't know, while *not* believing that there are.

I believe you're a smart enough guy to make that distinction - so my question is, why do you continually avoid making it?
Or I could just believe it is possible that there was or is at least one deity. Of course I could believe it's possible that there has never been one too, at the same time.


What do you believe?
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Old 02-13-2013, 17:22   #630
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Honestly, there is middle ground. I believe that either possibility is possible. Yes, No & Maybe are all valid answers to the question.
Of course it's possible, but as of today there is not a specific deity that you accept as existing (or having existed). This is true unless you are able to name a deity that you accept as existing or having existed.

This is not at all to argue that they do not or have not existed -- of course they are possible.

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Old 02-13-2013, 17:25   #631
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Or I could just believe it is possible that there was or is at least one deity. Of course I could believe it's possible that there has never been one too, at the same time.
You're just avoiding answering the question. You can believe it is possible that either case might be true at the same time - but that necessitates that you do *not* believe that it is true that a deity *has* existed.


Quote:
What do you believe?
It has not been shown that a deity is probable, therefore I do not accept the posit that a deity exists. I may in the future, depending on the particular deity in question and any evidence that supports a high probability of that deity existing. (I try to frame things in terms of probability, as while I think it is highly probable that I am perceiving an objective reality, it's *possible* that I am not - and that is true of pretty much anything that requires evidence from perception to verify, rather than pure thought)

Note, of course, that it not being shown to be probable does not mean it is impossible. And note, of course, that assessment of probability is something that is done with current information, and is subject to change (i.e., we are not talking about a religious belief here).
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Old 02-13-2013, 19:22   #632
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Of course it's possible, but as of today there is not a specific deity that you accept as existing (or having existed). This is true unless you are able to name a deity that you accept as existing or having existed.

This is not at all to argue that they do not or have not existed -- of course they are possible.

-ArtificialGrape
It's not a definite yes or no. It's a definite maybe. I make no assumptions about the possible characteristics of any deity either. I just have not committed one way or the other, I see no need to. It's not something that influences day to day life for me.
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Old 02-13-2013, 19:29   #633
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You're just avoiding answering the question. You can believe it is possible that either case might be true at the same time - but that necessitates that you do *not* believe that it is true that a deity *has* existed.
I believe it's possible that a deity has existed, or not.

Can you tell me why this is so important for you, or cut to the chase, it's starting to be boring.

I've answered your question repeatedly, and you have a problem accepting it. I can live with that.


Quote:


It has not been shown that a deity is probable, therefore I do not accept the posit that a deity exists. I may in the future, depending on the particular deity in question and any evidence that supports a high probability of that deity existing. (I try to frame things in terms of probability, as while I think it is highly probable that I am perceiving an objective reality, it's *possible* that I am not - and that is true of pretty much anything that requires evidence from perception to verify, rather than pure thought)

Note, of course, that it not being shown to be probable does not mean it is impossible. And note, of course, that assessment of probability is something that is done with current information, and is subject to change (i.e., we are not talking about a religious belief here).
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Old 02-13-2013, 19:47   #634
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
It's not a definite yes or no. It's a definite maybe. I make no assumptions about the possible characteristics of any deity either. I just have not committed one way or the other, I see no need to. It's not something that influences day to day life for me.
Yes, maybe god(s) exist or existed.

However, unless you can name today a god that you believe exists or existed, there are none that you *currently* accept. You are not asserting that they don't exist or have never existed.

Everybody other than you recognizes that there is not a god -- living or dead -- that you accept. You don't need to be scared to admit it.

It's okay, until you can name a deity that you accept, we will accept that there are none.

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Old 02-13-2013, 20:05   #635
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Yes, maybe god(s) exist or existed.

However, unless you can name today a god that you believe exists or existed, there are none that you *currently* accept. You are not asserting that they don't exist or have never existed.
U
Everybody other than you recognizes that there is not a god -- living or dead -- that you accept. You don't need to be scared to admit it.

It's okay, until you can name a deity that you accept, we will accept that there are none.

-ArtificialGrape
Twist it into a pretzel if you have to, but it seems the fear is on your side. Not sure why someone just not committing one way or the other is so discomforting to you. The evangelical atheist approach is humorous though.
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Old 02-13-2013, 20:21   #636
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I've answered your question repeatedly, and you have a problem accepting it. I can live with that.
Nah. I don't have a problem accepting your answer. The problem is that your answer, isn't an answer to the question I asked. It's an answer to a different question.

You've avoided the question repeatedly.

You're still avoiding it.

That's ok - other people will grok that you're avoiding it, and get the point. I think you yourself get the point - which is why you're avoiding it.
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Old 02-13-2013, 20:26   #637
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We could have an entire thread on questions that Doc has avoided. Maybe even a subforum.

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Old 02-13-2013, 20:27   #638
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I grok that...
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Old 02-13-2013, 20:33   #639
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Evangelical atheists are funny.

If they can't convert you, they just declare you are one of them anyway.

Hilarious, thanks for the laugh guys.
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Old 02-13-2013, 21:00   #640
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Religious Issues
Religious Issues
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