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Old 12-29-2012, 10:01   #301
Mayhem like Me
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To El Conquistador..


Since I track this stuff we don't use road checks they are worthless.

We use the more effective saturation patrols.

We hardly ever reach goals on arrests and we have never had or been threatened to have grant money pulled.

Our fatalities from DUI drugs and alcohol are below the national average at 18% and our agency has won numerous traffic safety awards,guess what this year we are down 3 dedicated officers in our traffic section and our fatalities have soared upwards and increased by a large percentage.With no other significant changes in population or traffic patterns I can't say it is the only cause effect but I will track and compare.
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:09   #302
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I could care less what you call me.

I will call you Mr or Ms whatever your last name is , you can choose to show how much of an arrogant jerk you are and I will smile and be professional.
I will introduce myself if you care to use my rank and last name great if not who cares .

I won't get in the dirt with you , it is counterproductive.
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:10   #303
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
I respect your passionate defense, but you are now telling me that I have not seen what I have seen. I've sat on the bumper and had officers tell me that that is what they are doing. I've been told that everyone in line was a suspected drunk driver and that that was their probable cause until proven otherwise.

Much like Bren, you are stating how the law is intended to be used. I can almost envy the world you guys must live in.
I think you are just mistaken about what is actually happening and basing this thread off a brief sitting on a bumper conversation.

Do you believe they are forcing blood draws without warrants, without arrest, without probable cause, or all of the above?

There are many checks and balances set in place for warrants...that is why it is unbelievable. Everyone who reads, signs, approves that warrant has to be "in" on it.
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:13   #304
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Originally Posted by Mayhem like Me View Post
To El Conquistador..
You have my title incorrect.

But my substitute one is Pharaoh or Decius. However, those are not official.


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Originally Posted by Mayhem like Me View Post
Since I track this stuff we don't use road checks they are worthless.

We use the more effective saturation patrols.
And going back many pages, what have I and others said about DUI enforcement? Seems like the exact same thing as here. No-one has argued that DUI enforcement is bad, we have said checkpoints should not be in place because of lack of probable cause and that they are ineffective. Since you contradict that checkpoints are the way to go I can only reach a few conclusions:
1) You are unintelligent
2) You are not a copp
3) You don't know what you are talking about because of 1&2.

I think I covered all the defenses of DUI checkpoints.



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Originally Posted by Mayhem like Me View Post
We hardly ever reach goals on arrests and we have never had or been threatened to have grant money pulled.
That is different than the link that I posted. Not all areas work in the same way.


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Originally Posted by Mayhem like Me View Post
Our fatalities from DUI drugs and alcohol are below the national average at 18% and our agency has won numerous traffic safety awards,guess what this year we are down 3 dedicated officers in our traffic section and our fatalities have soared upwards and increased by a large percentage.With no other significant changes in population or traffic patterns I can't say it is the only cause effect but I will track and compare.
Again, until you can show statistical significance against the null hypothesis, it is an interesting data point, but not does not mean anything. That is a problem with data like this. It is just like the gun control. People assume causation, because it fits their agenda, and absent proof it is "fact". You will see that gun control advocates talk about lack of assault weapons in Europe being why there are lower homicide rates, yet they leave Switzerland out. Why? Because they cannot make a statistically valid argument against the null hypothesis if they include it (FYI Switzerland has almost all male citizens with a machine gun in their house and yet has a lower murder rate than Germany)
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:13   #305
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You can easily find it.
"What" isn't that important.

At what point in the encounter would you expect them to use your proper title?
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:16   #306
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There are no Mandatory blood draws without a proper search warrant based on probable cause it is that simple , and can be the smell of alcohol on you and or you admitting to drinking, unsteady gait...blah blah..blah.
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:23   #307
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"An agency could have their contact terminated if it doesn’t reach its goals, but we look at all the goals," said Mairi Nelson, spokeswoman for the Colorado Department of Transportation

Boulder police spokeswoman Julie Brooks said the department fell short of its grant goal of 1,000 arrests set for 2004 by fewer than 100 arrests.
Did that, the part in bold, result in a loss of funding?
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:24   #308
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No-one has argued that DUI enforcement is bad, we have said checkpoints should not be in place because of lack of probable cause and that they are ineffective.

I think I covered all the defenses of DUI checkpoints.
Probable Cause is not required for a motor vehicle stop or for a DWI checkpoint.
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:26   #309
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
You have my title incorrect.

But my substitute one is Pharaoh or Decius. However, those are not official.




And going back many pages, what have I and others said about DUI enforcement? Seems like the exact same thing as here. No-one has argued that DUI enforcement is bad, we have said checkpoints should not be in place because of lack of probable cause and that they are ineffective. Since you contradict that checkpoints are the way to go I can only reach a few conclusions:
1) You are unintelligent
2) You are not a copp
3) You don't know what you are talking about because of 1&2.

I think I covered all the defenses of DUI checkpoints.





That is different than the link that I posted. Not all areas work in the same way.




Again, until you can show statistical significance against the null hypothesis, it is an interesting data point, but not does not mean anything. That is a problem with data like this. It is just like the gun control. People assume causation, because it fits their agenda, and absent proof it is "fact". You will see that gun control advocates talk about lack of assault weapons in Europe being why there are lower homicide rates, yet they leave Switzerland out. Why? Because they cannot make a statistically valid argument against the null hypothesis if they include it (FYI Switzerland has almost all male citizens with a machine gun in their house and yet has a lower murder rate than Germany)
You seems have trouble with reading comprehension.

No where In the article you posted did it say grant money was lost due to not reaching arrest goals..
Should be simple enough for you to prove, when did they loose grant money what year.

If you were to also read my post I did not say the only reason fatalities increased was because of the lessened enforcement.
We cannot actually scientifically track the cause and effect because the roadways are not a laboratory .

Our best data tracking shows that targeting certain offenses In high collision areas reduces the number of crashes during and a short time after the increased enforcement.
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:33   #310
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Originally Posted by Mayhem like Me View Post
You seems have trouble with reading comprehension.

No where In the article you posted did it say grant money was lost due to not reaching arrest goals..
Should be simple enough for you to prove, when did they loose grant money what year.

If you were to also read my post I did not say the only reason fatalities increased was because of the lessened enforcement.
We cannot actually scientifically track the cause and effect because the roadways are not a laboratory .

Our best data tracking shows that targeting certain offenses In high collision areas reduces the number of crashes during and a short time after the increased enforcement.
He has a problem with honesty and integrity.

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Old 12-29-2012, 10:36   #311
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
http://www.duiblog.com/2005/04/15/

Its amazing, they couldnt arrest enough people on DUIs to get their grant money.

To add more to the story, the aftermath was many cases were dismissed or overturned based upon quotas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem like Me View Post
We hardly ever reach goals on arrests and we have never had or been threatened to have grant money pulled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
That is different than the link that I posted. Not all areas work in the same way.
How is that different than what is in the blog piece you quoted?

Haven't you already said you didn't say Boulder lost their funding?
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I did not state that they did not get their grant money.
What is the difference in what Mayhem said?
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:49   #312
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What you are not reading, is that the performance goals are based on ARRESTS and they fell short of that. Why were the arrests lower?
Don't know. Do you know?

The 1,000 arrests goal, was that higher or lower than the preceding year? By what percent was it different? Did the 900+ arrests meet, fail to meet or did they exceed the preceding year's arrests?
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In fact, wouldnt the ultimate goal of any DUI program, if it were for true public safety, be zero arrests because people were not driving drunk?
Yes, when zero violations occurred after the same efforts of previous years, that would be success.
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Imagine a check point that had zero arrests over a holiday weekend because they didnt find any drunk drivers. Wouldnt that be a GOOD thing?
Maybe. Could also mean the location and or timing was wrong. But, yes, if the number of impaired drivers decreased, that is good.
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:51   #313
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Long thread here. Take away the pissing matches and it would be 1/4 shorter.

Every so often around the new year we hear about new DWI laws with "teeth" in them and yet the problem still exists bigly. The list of drivers with multiple DWI convictions is long.

Put real teeth in the law and it will stop or reduce greatly. First offense, 10 year license suspension. Second offense, 10 years in the local jail, or something similar. And really do it. (Wait, that's Draconian, that would expensive, we don't have the room, blah blah blah, this is America, we can't do that.)

I'm not a LEO or an expert, but I don't believe that people who have not drank a drop will be blowing .08's. This, based on jury service in more than one drunk driving murder case.
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Old 12-29-2012, 11:00   #314
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Put real teeth in the law and it will stop or reduce greatly. First offense, 10 year license suspension. Second offense, 10 years in the local jail, or something similar. And really do it. (Wait, that's Draconian, that would expensive, we don't have the room, blah blah blah, this is America, we can't do that.)

I'm not a LEO or an expert, but I don't believe that people who have not drank a drop will be blowing .08's. This, based on jury service in more than one drunk driving murder case.
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Old 12-29-2012, 11:40   #315
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Refusal of the field or blow sobriety test will get you a trip to the station and refusal of a chemical sobriety test here in Nebraska will get you a one year license revocation, whether you are over the .08 or not. It's called implied consent law. Simple: Don't drink and drive.
I used to teach a DMV required defensive driving class. The biggest percentage of students were drinkers and too many points under the age of 21 so I heard lots of stories aout refusals.
Have a safe New Year's eve.
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Old 12-29-2012, 11:43   #316
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Refusal of the field or blow sobriety test will get you a trip to the station and refusal of a chemical sobriety test here in Nebraska will get you a one year license revocation, whether you are over the .08 or not. It's called implied consent law. Simple: Don't drink and drive.
I used to teach a DMV required defensive driving class. The biggest percentage of students were drinkers and too many points under the age of 21 so I heard lots of stories aout refusals.
Have a safe New Year's eve.
Rod
Thanks, Rod.

Any information on how they were arrested?
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:00   #317
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From my personal experience every time I've gone through one of these road blocks the cops already act like your guilty. No matter if you've been drinking, or not. It's like they are trying to trap you into saying something to incriminate yourself.

The first question he asked me up front was "What have you had to drink". I told him. Then "Where are you coming/going to". So I answered his questions. Then he got an attitude like I insulted him.

I was in my Mustang when I went through the road block. It's modified a lot and he proceeds to shine his flashlight around inside. Asks why I had a roll cage in the car. Then looks under the car to make sure I had the catalytic converters on my car. Was looking for anything to site me for. Cars street legal. Ridiculous.

I'm all for getting drunks off the roads. No problems with it, but when the cops act like they are some sort of god that's out of line.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:02   #318
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From my personal experience every time I've gone through one of these road blocks the cops already act like your guilty. No matter if you've been drinking, or not. It's like they are trying to trap you into saying something to incriminate yourself.

The first question he asked me up front was "What have you had to drink". I told him. Then "Where are you coming/going to". So I answered his questions. Then he got an attitude like I insulted him.

I was in my Mustang when I went through the road block. It's modified a lot and he proceeds to shine his flashlight around inside. Asks why I had a roll cage in the car. Then looks under the car to make sure I had the catalytic converters on my car. Was looking for anything to site me for. Cars street legal. Ridiculous.

I'm all for getting drunks off the roads. No problems with it, but when the cops act like they are some sort of god that's out of line.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:04   #319
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Unpossible


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Why is it unpossible?
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:17   #320
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Gee, it's ok to twist the 4th and 5th amendments how ever you see fit but by God you better not touch that 2nd....
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:26   #321
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So if accepting a DL from the State means that the driver has given implied consent to test for impairment, what is the limit of that implied consent? Can an LEO demand that a licensee submit to tests for intoxication even if that person is not operating any kind of vehicle?
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Old 12-29-2012, 13:15   #322
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Did that, the part in bold, result in a loss of funding?
Dunno. There was a threat of it, so the PD admitted to putting in "performance goals"
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Old 12-29-2012, 13:19   #323
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He has a problem with honesty and integrity.

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^ has many issues, some of which includemaking up new definitions of words, making claims where he cannot reject the null hypothesis, and being blind to "brothers" who break the law.

Prove me wrong here big guy. Prove with data in statistically significant manner, that your department can reject the null hypothesis and that you have a deterrent on crime. Show me the data that rejects the null hypothesis or you are simply talking out a blow hole.
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Old 12-29-2012, 13:26   #324
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Why is it unpossible?
Because, you like others who claim to be harassed about non-dui issues at checkpoints have been proven "irresputely" incorrect by the LEO on the forum by their jumping up and down insisting that doesn't happen. So, it is clear that it never happened, you are fabricating the incident, don't understand what LEO do since you aren't one, and are anti-LEO.

I think I have properly summed up the reasons. Maybe my LEO friends can help me out in case I missed something why it didnt happen as he says it did.

BTW. They were checking over your car for your own safety and that of the children.
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Old 12-29-2012, 13:29   #325
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Thanks, Rod.

Any information on how they were arrested?
The officer has their license from the traffic stop and they are at that point under arrest and read the implied consent law. If they are over the .08 limit they either bond out or spend the night in custody.
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