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Old 12-28-2012, 12:16   #26
dukeblue91
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Originally Posted by Warp View Post
No harm in lying to appeal to emotion?

Yeah...because it's not like that's what we chastise the antis for doing all the time or anything.
I understand the moral dilemma in this but this is a war of sorts and won't always be pretty.

Also the fact that it happened may be wrong but the idea that it would happen this way in an invasion of the US is not that far fetched.

Think about it there are nearly 1 billion guns in the hands of our citizens what do you think would happen to any invading force if only 10% decided to fight back.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:18   #27
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Originally Posted by Warp View Post
What matters is convincing the fence sitters. There are a LOT of people that are not completely stuck on one side or the other, and believe it or not there are people out there who will accept facts and listen to reason, given the right situation.

I could be wrong, but I do not believe that lying to them in an attempt to appeal to emotion is the way to go.
Because the other side of the fence would never stoop as low as to lie to everyone they try to convince, right?
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:26   #28
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Originally Posted by dukeblue91 View Post
I understand the moral dilemma in this but this is a war of sorts and won't always be pretty.

Also the fact that it happened may be wrong but the idea that it would happen this way in an invasion of the US is not that far fetched.

Think about it there are nearly 1 billion guns in the hands of our citizens what do you think would happen to any invading force if only 10% decided to fight back.
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Originally Posted by dukeblue91 View Post
Because the other side of the fence would never stoop as low as to lie to everyone they try to convince, right?
I am sorely disappointed.

No wonder the the public doesn't listen to us. We just lie. And openly admit it on public forums.

Maybe some day we will have strong enough arguments for gun ownership Rights that we won't have to lie to people to convince them.

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Last edited by Warp; 12-28-2012 at 12:27..
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:37   #29
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If I can't make my argument or defend my position without lying (or shouting or fearmongering), then my argument and position are inherently weak.

That's WHY the other side does it - their argument is weak and their positions are indefensible. So they lie, they shout, and they play on the emotions of the ignorant.

It ain't rocket science and it works real well, real often. But so do other forms of bullying; and I personally have no desire to engage in those, either.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:38   #30
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Originally Posted by quake View Post
If I can't make my argument or defend my position without lying (or shouting or fearmongering), then my argument and position are inherently weak.

That's WHY the other side does it - their argument is weak and their positions are indefensible. So they lie, they shout, and they play on the emotions of the ignorant.

It ain't rocket science and it works real well, real often. But so do other forms of bullying; and I personally have no desire to engage in those, either.
Exactly.

And it makes my 'job' of convincing people and bringing them over to 'our side' a lot easier when I don't have to explain why other gun owners and 2A supporters lied to them.
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Old 12-28-2012, 13:24   #31
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Originally Posted by Warp View Post
I am sorely disappointed.

No wonder the the public doesn't listen to us. We just lie. And openly admit it on public forums.

Maybe some day we will have strong enough arguments for gun ownership Rights that we won't have to lie to people to convince them.

That quote has been attributed to at least a couple of high ranking Japanese officers..

..regardless what has been "refuted" on the internet!


Here is another....the fact Germany did not invade & plunder the wealth of Switzerland in either World War states volumes about this quote...

http://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/po...0Firearms.html

Quote:
"While traveling around Switzerland on Sundays, everywhere one hears gunfire, but a peaceful gunfire: this is the Swiss practicing their favorite sport, their national sport. They are doing their obligatory shooting, or practicing for the regional, Cantonal or federal shooting festivals, as their ancestors did it with the musket, the arquebus or the crossbow. Everywhere, one meets urbanites and country people, rifle to the shoulder, causing foreigners to exclaim: 'You are having a revolution!"

- General Henri Guisan

Switzerland has not been invaded in 800 years, because every man and most of the women are issued guns which they keep at home. Imagine a government that not only allows but INSISTS its citizens keep military grade weapons. That's points right there. Even more, they hold quarterly Schuetzenfests, at which shooting, carousing and drinking are expected. And it's entirely possible you will have your ass handed to you by a 13 year old girl shooting a select-fire StG90 assault rifle that she carried to the range from school, slung across her back while pedaling her bicycle. Swiss GIRLS are better men than most allegedly-male American liberals.

There is a story, possibly apocryphal but awesome nonetheless, that a ranking German (possibly the Kaiser) was visiting and watching the Swiss military on their summer maneuvers. He asked the Swiss commander, "How big a force do you command?"

The Swiss general confidently replied, "I can mobilize one million men in twenty-four hours."

The German asked, "What would happen if I marched five million men in here tomorrow?"

The Swiss replied, "Each of my men will fire five shots and go home."

Note that Switzerland was not invaded during either World War, and still used an updated version of the same bolt action rifle from 1889 to 1959, and kept it in reserve service until 1980.


The Swiss K31 carbine is…well, the Swiss Watch of rifles. It is precise, sturdy, accurate, powerful and unusual in having a straight pull bolt action.
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Old 12-28-2012, 13:49   #32
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Originally Posted by Warp View Post
I could be wrong, but I do not believe that lying to them in an attempt to appeal to emotion is the way to go.
I'm not advocating it one way or another but it seems like that method sure works for convincing a majority of the voters in the last few elections on every level.
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Old 12-28-2012, 14:26   #33
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I'm not advocating it one way or another but it seems like that method sure works for convincing a majority of the voters in the last few elections on every level.
What is acceptable to lie about, and what is not?

What do you do when trying to convince people to come over to 'our side', and they discover that something you are telling them is not true? How do you make them believe the rest of what you are saying?

How many people do you suppose know that something or other you said is false, and therefore cast doubt on the rest, even if they don't say anything? I do that all the time with people. They say something I KNOW to be not true, so the other things they say that I am not so sure about...I am automatically (and justifiably) sceptical
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Old 12-28-2012, 14:27   #34
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Originally Posted by quake View Post
If I can't make my argument or defend my position without lying (or shouting or fearmongering), then my argument and position are inherently weak.

That's WHY the other side does it - their argument is weak and their positions are indefensible. So they lie, they shout, and they play on the emotions of the ignorant.

It ain't rocket science and it works real well, real often. But so do other forms of bullying; and I personally have no desire to engage in those, either.
Sorry but saying things like the story with the Japanese general is neither really a lie or fear mongering well maybe fear mongering to a degree.
It is a way to illustrate in a way someone can understand the point and some meaning of 2nd amendment and our rights and what our forefathers had in mind.
That is the main reason we are supposed to keep and bear arms so we can protect us and this country from foreign or domestic enemies.
Quite simple really.
We do such illustrations every day with all kind of explanations to people to build a picture in the minds eye.
This is no different then someone telling you that guns are dangerous and kill people and tell you about Sandy Hooker or any other tragedy.

As straight forward it is to say I have the right to keep and bear arms because the 2nd amendment says so will not convince anyone as to why it says so and why it is important.

But yes you can tell literary any kind of story you like to illustrate the need you would like but I'm willing to bet that you too have done this in some way many times in your life about something if not about the 2nd amendment.
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Old 12-28-2012, 14:28   #35
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Originally Posted by dukeblue91 View Post
Sorry but saying things like the story with the Japanese general is neither really a lie or fear mongering well maybe fear mongering to a degree.
It is a way to illustrate in a way someone can understand the point and some meaning of 2nd amendment and our rights and what our forefathers had in mind.
That is the main reason we are supposed to keep and bear arms so we can protect us and this country from foreign or domestic enemies.
Quite simple really.
We do such illustrations every day with all kind of explanations to people to build a picture in the minds eye.
This is no different then someone telling you that guns are dangerous and kill people and tell you about Sandy Hooker or any other tragedy.

As straight forward it is to say I have the right to keep and bear arms because the 2nd amendment says so will not convince anyone as to why it says so and why it is important.

But yes you can tell literary any kind of story you like to illustrate the need you would like but I'm willing to bet that you too have done this in some way many times in your life about something if not about the 2nd amendment.
You can convince people without lying to them, and without fear mongering.

We aren't selling snake oil here.

We aren't selling a product that doesn't work.

We are 'selling' something wholly legitimate, that absolutely does not need to be sullied by lies, baseless appeals to emotion, or fear mongering.
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Old 12-28-2012, 14:39   #36
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Originally Posted by Warp View Post
I am sorely disappointed.

No wonder the the public doesn't listen to us. We just lie. And openly admit it on public forums.

Maybe some day we will have strong enough arguments for gun ownership Rights that we won't have to lie to people to convince them.

Yes you are right that is exactly why the public doesn't listen to us because we may use a story to illustrate a point and they will go and goggle this said story to see if it was true.

We do have a strong enough argument but it is not all that easy to explain to someone without a illustration as to why.
Cause if someone doesn't already understand this right and is older then 12 how else can you make them understand.

Chances are the don't realize that there are evil people in this world and even in the USA that do not have their best interest at heart.
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Old 12-28-2012, 15:26   #37
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Originally Posted by Warp View Post
What is acceptable to lie about, and what is not?

What do you do when trying to convince people to come over to 'our side', and they discover that something you are telling them is not true? How do you make them believe the rest of what you are saying?

How many people do you suppose know that something or other you said is false, and therefore cast doubt on the rest, even if they don't say anything? I do that all the time with people. They say something I KNOW to be not true, so the other things they say that I am not so sure about...I am automatically (and justifiably) sceptical
I will say it again. I don't advocate it one way or another. But it is very effective on the modern American and even if you are caught lying, it doesn't matter to most people as long as it is what they want to hear.

If your hypothesis is true, most politicians, including the President, would be out of work.

Morality is the only thing that separates us in this instance from those who do not have the hangups about lying to get what they want.
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Old 12-28-2012, 18:43   #38
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Originally Posted by Warp View Post
I liked it, but I noticed at least one myth being repeated. I've been saying this for awhile...I REALLY think we need to stop spreading myth (or propoganda, when the other side does it)

That Yamamoto quote he used is false.

We have enough good, accurate, factual information to go on...there is absolutely no need to keep repeating untruths


But, otherwise and overall...an outstanding video
What is your source that quote did not occur or was not made by Admiral Yamamoto? A wikipedia article ( a notoriously bias source on politically sensitive topics) relying on a FactCheck.org assertion, based on one biased "historian"'s word? Hardly the best source either.

I suppose you also believe that Lincoln wanted to free the slaves so they could live freely in the US. Hint, that is not the case. He actually wanted to send them back to Africa or as a second choice to an American controlled Caribbean island.

You should carefully research your sources before you make assertions that something is a lie. It is more accurately a disputed quote. I can send you to many sources that attributed that quote to Yamamoto, why are they less reliable than FactCheck.org?
Before

Last edited by racerford; 12-28-2012 at 18:44..
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Old 12-28-2012, 18:56   #39
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What is your source that quote did not occur or was not made by Admiral Yamamoto? A wikipedia article ( a notoriously bias source on politically sensitive topics) relying on a FactCheck.org assertion, based on one biased "historian"'s word? Hardly the best source either.

I suppose you also believe that Lincoln wanted to free the slaves so they could live freely in the US. Hint, that is not the case. He actually wanted to send them back to Africa or as a second choice to an American controlled Caribbean island.

You should carefully research your sources before you make assertions that something is a lie. It is more accurately a disputed quote. I can send you to many sources that attributed that quote to Yamamoto, why are they less reliable than FactCheck.org?
Before
I've looked it up multiple times and have seen nothing but reports that it is not true.

I would like to see the sources that attribute it to him
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Old 12-28-2012, 19:35   #40
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Me too.
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Originally Posted by blueiron:
I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:18   #41
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I don't know whether Yamamoto or any other Japanese officer actually said that, and it doesn't bother me that much either way. I don't think Woolery's a liar for telling it; as he may genuinely believe it to be true. (It may genuinely BE true for all I know.)

I do dislike the idea of accepting the concept of intentionally lying merely for the sake of making my political argument more palatable to the recipient, as a valid, acceptable approach. I'm not fixating on the validity of the Yamamoto quote, I'm focusing on the honesty with which I choose to make my arguments in general.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeblue91 View Post
Sorry but saying things like the story with the Japanese general is neither really a lie or fear mongering well maybe fear mongering to a degree.
It is a way to illustrate in a way someone can understand the point and some meaning of 2nd amendment and our rights and what our forefathers had in mind.
I've got no problem with that, but if it's not true or not historically verifiable, then simply start the sentence with, "The story goes (or 'supposedly'), when the Emperor asked about plans to invade America, General Yamamoto said..."


Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeblue91 View Post
...We do such illustrations every day with all kind of explanations to people to build a picture in the minds eye.
Yes we do; examples, analogies, metaphors, etc. Even Jesus did so in parable form. But that's a very different thing than intentionally lying and deceiving people in order to make my point more easy to believe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeblue91 View Post
...As straight forward it is to say I have the right to keep and bear arms because the 2nd amendment says so will not convince anyone as to why it says so and why it is important.
Agreed. That's why it's on me to make the case for its importance. Without resorting to lies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeblue91 View Post
...But yes you can tell literary any kind of story you like to illustrate the need you would like but I'm willing to bet that you too have done this in some way many times in your life about something if not about the 2nd amendment.
I have told stories; campfire stories, stories about the "thirty-point buck" I never took, etc. All in jest, and all KNOWN by the listener to be untrue. I've also written stories in school, in college, and for others' entertainment. Again, all known by the reader to be finctional and untrue. If I were to maintain that they were indeed true, that would change the definition from "story" to "lie".

I'll even go one farther with a personal example. I had a young drunk guy pulled over probably 8-10 years ago now. It was a friday or saturday night, and he was upset because his girlfriend had called him to break up with him; so he started drinking and then decided to go see her to try & convince her to get back together with him. He was absolutely determined he was going to see Janie (never met her, but I'll never forget her name since he said it probably 20 times in ten minutes), and nobody, even an armed deputy twice his size was going to stop him. He took off his ballcap, tossed it in the back of his truck and flat TOLD me that I wasn't going to stop him. (You can almost always tell when a redneck wants to fight - he always takes off his cap for some reason.) Now this guy was half my size and two-thirds drunk. I'm large, I'm strong, and I was in no real physical danger from him in those circumstances. But his actions left me with only two options; I could either physically MAKE him get in the back of my car, or I could make him WANT to get in the back of my car. (Check out 'verbal judo' sometime; it's worked well for me for a long time)

Short version is simple. I asked him to hang on a minute, pretended to talk on my radio, and then told him, "OK, the radio operator got ahold of Janie, and she's going to meet us there." Little dude let me put the cuffs on quietly & we went to jail. By the time we got there, he was asleep and forgot about "meeting Janie".

So yep, I lied to him intentionally and would do so again; because my options were limited to "lie to him" or "physically hurt him". They were limited to those simply because he was irrational and I was under obligation to get him away from the steering wheel and off the street. So yes, I'll lie to a drunk if it means I can avoid having to hurt them. I'd lie to a kidnapper if it helped recover the kidnap victim. I'll lie to a guy holding a gun to a kid's head if it helps improve the situation.

But lie in general conversation, for the sake of advancing my own political beliefs? No, I won't. If you feel otherwise, then that's your call. If you don't feel otherwise, then we don't disagree.
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:35   #42
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Quake, you continue to be my favorite S/P poster. You're an established 'old guard' contributing member, we happen to agree on most everything, and you are patient and well spoken plus you are willing to sit down and type it all out.

Keep it up!
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Old 12-29-2012, 15:05   #43
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Originally Posted by quake View Post
I don't know whether Yamamoto or any other Japanese officer actually said that, and it doesn't bother me that much either way. I don't think Woolery's a liar for telling it; as he may genuinely believe it to be true. (It may genuinely BE true for all I know.)

I do dislike the idea of accepting the concept of intentionally lying merely for the sake of making my political argument more palatable to the recipient, as a valid, acceptable approach. I'm not fixating on the validity of the Yamamoto quote, I'm focusing on the honesty with which I choose to make my arguments in general.



I've got no problem with that, but if it's not true or not historically verifiable, then simply start the sentence with, "The story goes (or 'supposedly'), when the Emperor asked about plans to invade America, General Yamamoto said..."



Yes we do; examples, analogies, metaphors, etc. Even Jesus did so in parable form. But that's a very different thing than intentionally lying and deceiving people in order to make my point more easy to believe.



Agreed. That's why it's on me to make the case for its importance. Without resorting to lies.


I have told stories; campfire stories, stories about the "thirty-point buck" I never took, etc. All in jest, and all KNOWN by the listener to be untrue. I've also written stories in school, in college, and for others' entertainment. Again, all known by the reader to be finctional and untrue. If I were to maintain that they were indeed true, that would change the definition from "story" to "lie".

I'll even go one farther with a personal example. I had a young drunk guy pulled over probably 8-10 years ago now. It was a friday or saturday night, and he was upset because his girlfriend had called him to break up with him; so he started drinking and then decided to go see her to try & convince her to get back together with him. He was absolutely determined he was going to see Janie (never met her, but I'll never forget her name since he said it probably 20 times in ten minutes), and nobody, even an armed deputy twice his size was going to stop him. He took off his ballcap, tossed it in the back of his truck and flat TOLD me that I wasn't going to stop him. (You can almost always tell when a redneck wants to fight - he always takes off his cap for some reason.) Now this guy was half my size and two-thirds drunk. I'm large, I'm strong, and I was in no real physical danger from him in those circumstances. But his actions left me with only two options; I could either physically MAKE him get in the back of my car, or I could make him WANT to get in the back of my car. (Check out 'verbal judo' sometime; it's worked well for me for a long time)

Short version is simple. I asked him to hang on a minute, pretended to talk on my radio, and then told him, "OK, the radio operator got ahold of Janie, and she's going to meet us there." Little dude let me put the cuffs on quietly & we went to jail. By the time we got there, he was asleep and forgot about "meeting Janie".

So yep, I lied to him intentionally and would do so again; because my options were limited to "lie to him" or "physically hurt him". They were limited to those simply because he was irrational and I was under obligation to get him away from the steering wheel and off the street. So yes, I'll lie to a drunk if it means I can avoid having to hurt them. I'd lie to a kidnapper if it helped recover the kidnap victim. I'll lie to a guy holding a gun to a kid's head if it helps improve the situation.

But lie in general conversation, for the sake of advancing my own political beliefs? No, I won't. If you feel otherwise, then that's your call. If you don't feel otherwise, then we don't disagree.
Quake,

This is pretty much what I was saying but I guess I should not have used the word lying and got what I deserved for using that term.
But also thank you for taking the time to go over that many points I made.
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Old 12-29-2012, 23:34   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
I've looked it up multiple times and have seen nothing but reports that it is not true.

I would like to see the sources that attribute it to him
http://www.skylighters.org/quotations/quots6.html

http://www.wwiidogtags.com/blog/wwii-quotes/jan-9/

http://www.quotesstar.com/themes/iso...to-quotes.html

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2...3132006/174536

One that discusses if wikipedia entry is correctly stated:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Isoroku_Yamamoto

Wikipedia is not a heavily vetted source in the sense of a true encyclopedia. At best it is a source of sources. Many of those sources are heavily biased. They have weird rules. They would not let an author correct an entry on his own works, as there was not second source. It was about the basis of story. They accepted the word over a third party over the actual author. Is that a source you want to rely on?
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Old 12-29-2012, 23:43   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racerford View Post
http://www.skylighters.org/quotations/quots6.html

http://www.wwiidogtags.com/blog/wwii-quotes/jan-9/

http://www.quotesstar.com/themes/iso...to-quotes.html

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2...3132006/174536

One that discusses if wikipedia entry is correctly stated:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Isoroku_Yamamoto

Wikipedia is not a heavily vetted source in the sense of a true encyclopedia. At best it is a source of sources. Many of those sources are heavily biased. They have weird rules. They would not let an author correct an entry on his own works, as there was not second source. It was about the basis of story. They accepted the word over a third party over the actual author. Is that a source you want to rely on?

Quotesstar lists it as "unsourced"

The fredericksburg.com link you provided seems to be nothing more than a person who wrote/commented on the site, and the source this random person lists is that "it is widely reported" so, again, no source there.

The WWII dog tags site says nothing of the source.

Same for the others.

It is encouraging that it is repeated so many places. I remain unconvinced, mostly due to a lack of a good source on when/where he said it, to whom, why, etc, but I'll concede that there are multiple sources and leave it alone.
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:25   #46
LongGun1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racerford View Post
http://www.skylighters.org/quotations/quots6.html

http://www.wwiidogtags.com/blog/wwii-quotes/jan-9/

http://www.quotesstar.com/themes/iso...to-quotes.html

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2...3132006/174536

One that discusses if wikipedia entry is correctly stated:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Isoroku_Yamamoto

Wikipedia is not a heavily vetted source in the sense of a true encyclopedia. At best it is a source of sources. Many of those sources are heavily biased. They have weird rules. They would not let an author correct an entry on his own works, as there was not second source. It was about the basis of story. They accepted the word over a third party over the actual author. Is that a source you want to rely on?

Well done!

Left leaning or leftist "fact checking" sources should never be the 'reference standard' for correctness..

..nor information gleaned from them taken without a grain of salt...or even a plateful ..

..especially if the subject is a political one!
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