[Dragoon44]

Originally Posted by dougader

That's not what happened at the Clackamas Town Center here in Oregon. Ask yourself why only 2 people were killed in a mall with 10,000 shoppers. An armed CCW simply aimed at the cowardly murderer, but didn't fire because he was concerned about hitting one of the Christmas shoppers behind his target.

The next round fired was a self-inflicted wound by the armed idiot into his own head.

B.S. that is NOT what happened. might want to try reading something other than pro gun "lets manufacture a hero" propaganda.

The reason more people were not shot was that the shooters gun jammed. A fact acknowledged by your "hero". that allowed the majority of shoppers to clear the area ( a fact attested to by people that were there.) and AFTER your "Hero" RETREATED the shooter cleared the jam and fired more shots before casually walking down one wing of the mall where he entered a stairwell and eventually shot himself.

Your Hero by his own account had more confidence in hitting something he was not aiming at than hitting what he was aiming at. But even if the "Movement in the back of a store" behind the shooter actually existed that would not have stopped him from challenging the shooter, did he? NO.

Did he order him to drop the weapon? NO

What he did was as soon as he saw the shooters gun was jammed and he was not in danger of being shot. he left. Leaving the shooter to clear his jam and do whatever he wanted. Thankfully most of the shoppers had either cleared the area or gone into hiding by that time.

[Patchman]

Originally Posted by dougader

That's not what happened at the Clackamas Town Center here in Oregon. Ask yourself why only 2 people were killed in a mall with 10,000 shoppers. An armed CCW simply aimed at the cowardly murderer, but didn't fire because he was concerned about hitting one of the Christmas shoppers behind his target.

The next round fired was a self-inflicted wound by the armed idiot into his own head.

Let me think about this for a minute.

10,000 potential victims still in, and near, the kill zone. Loose gunman with a rifle. Already two people dead. And the CCW chooses to NOT stop the gunman for fear he (CCW) might hit a bystander?

Oh yeah, the gunman is trying to clear his rifle because it's jammed. So the CCW takes this opportunity and chooses to get himself to safety. (And let those bystanders he was afraid of hitting make their own way to safety?)

As already posted on the other thread, it is what it is. The CCW made his decision, and let's understand: It was his decision. In life, there's no "reset" button.

[dougader]

Originally Posted by Dragoon44

B.S. that is NOT what happened. might want to try reading something other than pro gun "lets manufacture a hero" propaganda.

The reason more people were not shot was that the shooters gun jammed. A fact acknowledged by your "hero". that allowed the majority of shoppers to clear the area ( a fact attested to by people that were there.) and AFTER your "Hero" RETREATED the shooter cleared the jam and fired more shots before casually walking down one wing of the mall where he entered a stairwell and eventually shot himself.

That's not what was reported here. The shooter ran into a hallway and was certainly able to shoot himself in the head. The gun reportedly jammed several times and the gunman cleared it and started firing again. After he saw someone pointing a gun at him, he fled, like most cowards flee, when met with resistance.

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamasc...e_had_rob.html

Meli said he then pulled out his Glock 22 pistol and aimed it at the suspect. But when he saw someone move behind Roberts, Meli decided against firing, concerned he might hit an innocent person.

Meli also told KGW that Roberts appeared to spot him and that afterward, Meli heard only one more shot, and suspects it was the one Roberts used to kill himself.

Meli, also 22, told The Oregonian he was with three friends and a child at the mall.

Your Hero by his own account had more confidence in hitting something he was not aiming at than hitting what he was aiming at. But even if the "Movement in the back of a store" behind the shooter actually existed that would not have stopped him from challenging the shooter, did he? NO.

Did he order him to drop the weapon? NO

What he did was as soon as he saw the shooters gun was jammed and he was not in danger of being shot. he left. Leaving the shooter to clear his jam and do whatever he wanted. Thankfully most of the shoppers had either cleared the area or gone into hiding by that time.

Looks like a better ending to me than what happened at Sandy Hook elementary school. And certainly better than what happened in New York city when the city's best heroes opened up:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/24...an-police-say/

[dougader]

Originally Posted by Patchman

Let me think about this for a minute.

10,000 potential victims still in, and near, the kill zone. Loose gunman with a rifle. Already two people dead. And the CCW chooses to NOT stop the gunman for fear he (CCW) might hit a bystander?

Oh yeah, the gunman is trying to clear his rifle because it's jammed. So the CCW takes this opportunity and chooses to get himself to safety. (And let those bystanders he was afraid of hitting make their own way to safety?)

As already posted on the other thread, it is what it is. The CCW made his decision, and let's understand: It was his decision. In life, there's no "reset" button.

Well, he was also concerned about the people who were with him. He didn't just run away to save his own skin.

[Dragoon44]

That's not what was reported here. The shooter ran into a hallway and was certainly able to shoot himself in the head. The gun reportedly jammed several times and the gunman cleared it and started firing again. After he saw someone pointing a gun at him, he fled, like most cowards flee, when met with resistance.

I watched Meli's video several times. He never stated the gunman fled after seeing him point a gun at him. the one that fled was Meli. ( He by his own account retreated into a store.) There are several statements of eyewitnesses that the gunmen slowly walked away from the food court area to where he entered the stairway access area.

Looks like a better ending to me than what happened at Sandy Hook elementary school. And certainly better than what happened in New York city when the city's best heroes opened up:

The ending was pure luck not due to the (IN)action of the CCW holder.

And as I have stated before, I am not criticizing Meli, I think he did what most would do when they found they could not bring themselves to pull the trigger.

What I have issue with is the B.S. propaganda trying to make him a hero and claim his actions saved the day.

Do you think that if the shooter had been firing on Meli that Meli would have held his fire and died heroically instead of returning fire?

[turretg]

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/Massa...azines-part-i/

[Patchman]

Originally Posted by dougader

Well, he was also concerned about the people who were with him. He didn't just run away to save his own skin.

That was just the unintended consequences?

And what was he to the people with him, their seeing eye dog? The people with him didn't know what the mall exits look like? How about they follow the crowd?

If you see what he did as heroic, then he's a hero to you. I'm cool with that.

[Kingarthurhk]

Originally Posted by Peace Warrior

[rant] Forgive my off topic perceptions here...

BUT, I'm in the camp of those people who completely disagree with using the term of "shooter" with respect to these idiots who are murdering people.

IMHO, I think the media, and especially all law abiding gun owners, need to begin calling a spade a spade, if you will, and refer to these idiots as to what they really are, which they are murderers. (Or, murdering cowards who pick gun free zones to further their criminality.)



STOP CALLING THEM SHOOTERS PLEASE.


For instance, in this latest event, meaning Sandy Hook, this murderer chose a legislated gun-free zone in Massachusetts to further his criminality. He was NOT a shooter, he was a maniacal murderer and idiot!




(Only Police radios or written reports should refer to these murdering cowards as shooters.)



/rant

That could be because, "Dynamic ballistic projectile dispenser" is too cumbersome and confusing.

[Gallium]

Originally Posted by Patchman

I'm sure you know, for the average LEO, shooting is just one of many required skill sets. The reality is, it's not even the most important.

Except when one is being shot at.

By the way, this thread is about guns.

[Patchman]

Originally Posted by Gallium

Except when one is being shot at.

By the way, this thread is about guns.

Yes, this is a thread about guns. But a gun is useless without the proper mindset. Unless, of course, the mindset is that a gun is a lucky talisman.

(Is there such a thing as an an unlucky talisman?)

[Gallium]

Originally Posted by Patchman

Yes, this is a thread about guns. But a gun is useless without the proper mindset. Unless, of course, the mindset is that a gun is a lucky talisman.

(Is there such a thing as an an unlucky talisman?)

if you read the NRA monthly rag (magazine), there are lots of people who didn't leave the gunstore, shooting range or pistol course with any enhanced/developed sense of "mindset", but still, in that instance of time go down and dig deep to get the job done. *

[Patchman]

Good for them. They're all heros in my book.

Enhanced mindset? That's the thing. You don't need enhanced. You just need proper.

[Dragoon44]

Originally Posted by Gallium

if you read the NRA monthly rag (magazine), there are lots of people who didn't leave the gunstore, shooting range or pistol course with any enhanced/developed sense of "mindset", but still, in that instance of time go down and dig deep to get the job done. *

Yeah when it's there ass on the line they do pretty well. But that is not what we are talking about. we are talking about running to the sound of the gunfire rather than away from it.

[Patchman]

I didn't want to muddle the waters by introducing that argument.

Common wisdom is that more guns make "society" politer and safer. But how is "society" defined?" My brother's keeper or just my own keeper?

[Dragoon44]

Originally Posted by Patchman

I didn't want to muddle the waters by introducing that argument.

Common wisdom is that more guns make "society" politer and safer. But how is "society" defined?" My brother's keeper or just my own keeper?

If the claim is made, "If the police need it , I need it." then it appears to me the reason why the police need it is a valid part of the conversation. Notice they always bring up "to defend themselves" which of course is one reason the police need it. but they always avoid the "Acting on behalf of others" part of why the police need it.

[Ruble Noon]

Originally Posted by Patchman

I'm sure you know, for the average LEO, shooting is just one of many required skill sets. The reality is, it's not even the most important.

Obviously.

[ithaca_deerslayer]

Originally Posted by turretg

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/Massa...azines-part-i/

Good article. Looks like Massad Ayoob has read this thread, but writes better than me

[Patchman]

Originally Posted by Ruble Noon

I shoot competition with a lot of cops and most of the time they get smoked. Maybe we should hold cops to our standards?

Originally Posted by Patchman

I'm sure you know, for the average LEO, shooting is just one of many required skill sets. The reality is, it's not even the most important.

Originally Posted by Ruble Noon

Obviously.

Obvious to some, such as yourself. But, believe it or not, not obvious to most.

[Patchman]

Originally Posted by Dragoon44

If the claim is made, "If the police need it , I need it." then it appears to me the reason why the police need it is a valid part of the conversation. Notice they always bring up "to defend themselves" which of course is one reason the police need it. but they always avoid the "Acting on behalf of others" part of why the police need it.

Hence the bright line demarkation between those who chose to serve their communities and this country, with those who don't.

The Yang to balance the Ying.

[Aux Bear]

Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer

The police defend themselves while they are doing their job. I defend myself while I am living my life.

Again, I'm not looking for trouble but it may come to me. At that moment I need all the same guns the police need.

Did it ever occur to you that we have to have them because YOU have them! Duh! We have SOG. 20 officers with semi-auto assult rifles in the largest county in Illinois. We, the regular guys, qualify with Glock 22s or 23s and the good old 870. They are available to respond, within an hour, anywhere in the county. So what is it you need?

[DanaT]

The simple answer, I dont need to explain why I "need" something.

WTF do I need a huge flat screen TV? Why do I need a car that exceeds 75mph?

What the police need is irrelevant to what I need. Maybe I need the same thing as them, maybe I don't. But I sure as hell shouldn't need to justify why I need high cap mags by saying police need them.

On a funny note, I have seen the arguments how the police are professionals and can handle themselves under stress better. This means they should be BETTER shots and need FEWER bullets than civilians who will miss more. Therefore POLICE should be limited to 10 round mags and us clumsy good for nothing poor shots will need higher capacity magazines to defend ourselves since we will likely miss.

[Rabbi]

Originally Posted by DanaT

The simple answer, I dont need to explain why I "need" something.

WTF do I need a huge flat screen TV? Why do I need a car that exceeds 75mph?

What the police need is irrelevant to what I need. Maybe I need the same thing as them, maybe I don't. But I sure as hell shouldn't need to justify why I need high cap mags by saying police need them.

On a funny note, I have seen the arguments how the police are professionals and can handle themselves under stress better. This means they should be BETTER shots and need FEWER bullets than civilians who will miss more. Therefore POLICE should be limited to 10 round mags and us clumsy good for nothing poor shots will need higher capacity magazines to defend ourselves since we will likely miss.

Sometimes you make some good points. Sometimes you get absurd...You did the absurd thing here.

And we, all of us, have to justify things all the time. It is often a good thing. It helps keep lethal doses of polonium out of your corn flakes and such.

[Patchman]

Originally Posted by DanaT

On a funny note, I have seen the arguments how the police are professionals and can handle themselves under stress better. This means they should be BETTER shots and need FEWER bullets than civilians who will miss more. Therefore POLICE should be limited to 10 round mags and us clumsy good for nothing poor shots will need higher capacity magazines to defend ourselves since we will likely miss.

And on a funnier note, I've read many non-LEO posters opine they're much better shooters than LEOs... etc, etc... And which may be perfectly true. So who (as a group) should need lesser capacity mags?

[DanaT]

Originally Posted by Patchman

And on a funnier note, I've read many non-LEO posters opine they're much better shooters than LEOs... etc, etc...

Obviously those one should get 5 round mags...

[DanaT]

Originally Posted by Rabbi

Sometimes you make some good points. Sometimes you get absurd...You did the absurd thing here.

And we, all of us, have to justify things all the time. It is often a good thing. It helps keep lethal doses of polonium out of your corn flakes and such.

I never claimed to need plutonium in my corn flakes.