GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-30-2012, 07:04   #201
Dragoon44
Lifetime Membership
Unfair Facist
 
Dragoon44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 24,167
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougader View Post
That's not what happened at the Clackamas Town Center here in Oregon. Ask yourself why only 2 people were killed in a mall with 10,000 shoppers. An armed CCW simply aimed at the cowardly murderer, but didn't fire because he was concerned about hitting one of the Christmas shoppers behind his target.

The next round fired was a self-inflicted wound by the armed idiot into his own head.
B.S. that is NOT what happened. might want to try reading something other than pro gun "lets manufacture a hero" propaganda.

The reason more people were not shot was that the shooters gun jammed. A fact acknowledged by your "hero". that allowed the majority of shoppers to clear the area ( a fact attested to by people that were there.) and AFTER your "Hero" RETREATED the shooter cleared the jam and fired more shots before casually walking down one wing of the mall where he entered a stairwell and eventually shot himself.

Your Hero by his own account had more confidence in hitting something he was not aiming at than hitting what he was aiming at. But even if the "Movement in the back of a store" behind the shooter actually existed that would not have stopped him from challenging the shooter, did he? NO.

Did he order him to drop the weapon? NO

What he did was as soon as he saw the shooters gun was jammed and he was not in danger of being shot. he left. Leaving the shooter to clear his jam and do whatever he wanted. Thankfully most of the shoppers had either cleared the area or gone into hiding by that time.
__________________
“Right is still right, even if nobody is doing it. And wrong is still wrong, even if everybody is doing it.”—Texas Ranger saying.
Dragoon44 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 08:51   #202
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 11,559
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougader View Post
That's not what happened at the Clackamas Town Center here in Oregon. Ask yourself why only 2 people were killed in a mall with 10,000 shoppers. An armed CCW simply aimed at the cowardly murderer, but didn't fire because he was concerned about hitting one of the Christmas shoppers behind his target.

The next round fired was a self-inflicted wound by the armed idiot into his own head.
Let me think about this for a minute.

10,000 potential victims still in, and near, the kill zone. Loose gunman with a rifle. Already two people dead. And the CCW chooses to NOT stop the gunman for fear he (CCW) might hit a bystander?

Oh yeah, the gunman is trying to clear his rifle because it's jammed. So the CCW takes this opportunity and chooses to get himself to safety. (And let those bystanders he was afraid of hitting make their own way to safety?)

As already posted on the other thread, it is what it is. The CCW made his decision, and let's understand: It was his decision. In life, there's no "reset" button.
__________________
Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.

Last edited by Patchman; 12-30-2012 at 08:55..
Patchman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 11:51   #203
dougader
Senior Member
 
dougader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: OryGun
Posts: 3,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
B.S. that is NOT what happened. might want to try reading something other than pro gun "lets manufacture a hero" propaganda.

The reason more people were not shot was that the shooters gun jammed. A fact acknowledged by your "hero". that allowed the majority of shoppers to clear the area ( a fact attested to by people that were there.) and AFTER your "Hero" RETREATED the shooter cleared the jam and fired more shots before casually walking down one wing of the mall where he entered a stairwell and eventually shot himself.
That's not what was reported here. The shooter ran into a hallway and was certainly able to shoot himself in the head. The gun reportedly jammed several times and the gunman cleared it and started firing again. After he saw someone pointing a gun at him, he fled, like most cowards flee, when met with resistance.

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamasc...e_had_rob.html

Meli said he then pulled out his Glock 22 pistol and aimed it at the suspect. But when he saw someone move behind Roberts, Meli decided against firing, concerned he might hit an innocent person.

Meli also told KGW that Roberts appeared to spot him and that afterward, Meli heard only one more shot, and suspects it was the one Roberts used to kill himself.

Meli, also 22, told The Oregonian he was with three friends and a child at the mall.


Quote:
Your Hero by his own account had more confidence in hitting something he was not aiming at than hitting what he was aiming at. But even if the "Movement in the back of a store" behind the shooter actually existed that would not have stopped him from challenging the shooter, did he? NO.

Did he order him to drop the weapon? NO

What he did was as soon as he saw the shooters gun was jammed and he was not in danger of being shot. he left. Leaving the shooter to clear his jam and do whatever he wanted. Thankfully most of the shoppers had either cleared the area or gone into hiding by that time.
Looks like a better ending to me than what happened at Sandy Hook elementary school. And certainly better than what happened in New York city when the city's best heroes opened up:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/24...an-police-say/
__________________
Doug

"In St. Louis, armed Homeland Security agents monitored Tea Party members protesting the IRS. Good idea. When people think their government is out to get them, the best response is to send the government out to get them." -Fred Thompson

Last edited by dougader; 12-30-2012 at 12:02..
dougader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 11:53   #204
dougader
Senior Member
 
dougader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: OryGun
Posts: 3,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Let me think about this for a minute.

10,000 potential victims still in, and near, the kill zone. Loose gunman with a rifle. Already two people dead. And the CCW chooses to NOT stop the gunman for fear he (CCW) might hit a bystander?

Oh yeah, the gunman is trying to clear his rifle because it's jammed. So the CCW takes this opportunity and chooses to get himself to safety. (And let those bystanders he was afraid of hitting make their own way to safety?)

As already posted on the other thread, it is what it is. The CCW made his decision, and let's understand: It was his decision. In life, there's no "reset" button.
Well, he was also concerned about the people who were with him. He didn't just run away to save his own skin.
__________________
Doug

"In St. Louis, armed Homeland Security agents monitored Tea Party members protesting the IRS. Good idea. When people think their government is out to get them, the best response is to send the government out to get them." -Fred Thompson
dougader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 12:08   #205
Dragoon44
Lifetime Membership
Unfair Facist
 
Dragoon44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 24,167
Quote:
That's not what was reported here. The shooter ran into a hallway and was certainly able to shoot himself in the head. The gun reportedly jammed several times and the gunman cleared it and started firing again. After he saw someone pointing a gun at him, he fled, like most cowards flee, when met with resistance.
I watched Meli's video several times. He never stated the gunman fled after seeing him point a gun at him. the one that fled was Meli. ( He by his own account retreated into a store.) There are several statements of eyewitnesses that the gunmen slowly walked away from the food court area to where he entered the stairway access area.

Quote:
Looks like a better ending to me than what happened at Sandy Hook elementary school. And certainly better than what happened in New York city when the city's best heroes opened up:
The ending was pure luck not due to the (IN)action of the CCW holder.

And as I have stated before, I am not criticizing Meli, I think he did what most would do when they found they could not bring themselves to pull the trigger.

What I have issue with is the B.S. propaganda trying to make him a hero and claim his actions saved the day.

Do you think that if the shooter had been firing on Meli that Meli would have held his fire and died heroically instead of returning fire?
__________________
“Right is still right, even if nobody is doing it. And wrong is still wrong, even if everybody is doing it.”—Texas Ranger saying.

Last edited by Dragoon44; 12-30-2012 at 12:21..
Dragoon44 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 12:19   #206
turretg
Senior Member
 
turretg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here....right now.
Posts: 1,414
http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/Massa...azines-part-i/
__________________
Elvis has left the turret.
turretg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 12:37   #207
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 11,559
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougader View Post
Well, he was also concerned about the people who were with him. He didn't just run away to save his own skin.

That was just the unintended consequences?

And what was he to the people with him, their seeing eye dog? The people with him didn't know what the mall exits look like? How about they follow the crowd?

If you see what he did as heroic, then he's a hero to you. I'm cool with that.
__________________
Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.

Last edited by Patchman; 12-30-2012 at 16:14..
Patchman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 12:42   #208
Kingarthurhk
Isaiah 53:4-9
 
Kingarthurhk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
[rant] Forgive my off topic perceptions here...

BUT, I'm in the camp of those people who completely disagree with using the term of "shooter" with respect to these idiots who are murdering people.

IMHO, I think the media, and especially all law abiding gun owners, need to begin calling a spade a spade, if you will, and refer to these idiots as to what they really are, which they are murderers. (Or, murdering cowards who pick gun free zones to further their criminality.)



STOP CALLING THEM SHOOTERS PLEASE.


For instance, in this latest event, meaning Sandy Hook, this murderer chose a legislated gun-free zone in Massachusetts to further his criminality. He was NOT a shooter, he was a maniacal murderer and idiot!




(Only Police radios or written reports should refer to these murdering cowards as shooters.)



/rant
That could be because, "Dynamic ballistic projectile dispenser" is too cumbersome and confusing.
__________________
Glock 17, 19, 20SF, 21C, 22, 26, 27, Glock E-Tool, Glock knife
Quod ego haereticus appellari sequere Jesum.
Kingarthurhk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 15:47   #209
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
I'm sure you know, for the average LEO, shooting is just one of many required skill sets. The reality is, it's not even the most important.
Except when one is being shot at.

By the way, this thread is about guns.
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 16:02   #210
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 11,559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
Except when one is being shot at.

By the way, this thread is about guns.
Yes, this is a thread about guns. But a gun is useless without the proper mindset. Unless, of course, the mindset is that a gun is a lucky talisman.

(Is there such a thing as an an unlucky talisman?)
__________________
Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.

Last edited by Patchman; 12-30-2012 at 16:07..
Patchman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 16:50   #211
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Yes, this is a thread about guns. But a gun is useless without the proper mindset. Unless, of course, the mindset is that a gun is a lucky talisman.

(Is there such a thing as an an unlucky talisman?)

if you read the NRA monthly rag (magazine), there are lots of people who didn't leave the gunstore, shooting range or pistol course with any enhanced/developed sense of "mindset", but still, in that instance of time go down and dig deep to get the job done. *
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 17:09   #212
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 11,559
Good for them. They're all heros in my book.

Enhanced mindset? That's the thing. You don't need enhanced. You just need proper.
__________________
Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.

Last edited by Patchman; 12-30-2012 at 17:10..
Patchman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 17:23   #213
Dragoon44
Lifetime Membership
Unfair Facist
 
Dragoon44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 24,167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
if you read the NRA monthly rag (magazine), there are lots of people who didn't leave the gunstore, shooting range or pistol course with any enhanced/developed sense of "mindset", but still, in that instance of time go down and dig deep to get the job done. *
Yeah when it's there ass on the line they do pretty well. But that is not what we are talking about. we are talking about running to the sound of the gunfire rather than away from it.
__________________
“Right is still right, even if nobody is doing it. And wrong is still wrong, even if everybody is doing it.”—Texas Ranger saying.
Dragoon44 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 17:48   #214
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 11,559
I didn't want to muddle the waters by introducing that argument.

Common wisdom is that more guns make "society" politer and safer. But how is "society" defined?" My brother's keeper or just my own keeper?
__________________
Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.
Patchman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 17:55   #215
Dragoon44
Lifetime Membership
Unfair Facist
 
Dragoon44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 24,167
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
I didn't want to muddle the waters by introducing that argument.

Common wisdom is that more guns make "society" politer and safer. But how is "society" defined?" My brother's keeper or just my own keeper?
If the claim is made, "If the police need it , I need it." then it appears to me the reason why the police need it is a valid part of the conversation. Notice they always bring up "to defend themselves" which of course is one reason the police need it. but they always avoid the "Acting on behalf of others" part of why the police need it.
__________________
“Right is still right, even if nobody is doing it. And wrong is still wrong, even if everybody is doing it.”—Texas Ranger saying.
Dragoon44 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 18:20   #216
Ruble Noon
"Cracker"
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 11,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
I'm sure you know, for the average LEO, shooting is just one of many required skill sets. The reality is, it's not even the most important.
Obviously.
Ruble Noon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 18:26   #217
ithaca_deerslayer
Senior Member
 
ithaca_deerslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Posts: 18,628
Quote:
Originally Posted by turretg View Post
Good article. Looks like Massad Ayoob has read this thread, but writes better than me
ithaca_deerslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 19:50   #218
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 11,559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruble Noon View Post
I shoot competition with a lot of cops and most of the time they get smoked. Maybe we should hold cops to our standards?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
I'm sure you know, for the average LEO, shooting is just one of many required skill sets. The reality is, it's not even the most important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruble Noon View Post
Obviously.

Obvious to some, such as yourself. But, believe it or not, not obvious to most.
__________________
Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.
Patchman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 20:02   #219
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 11,559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
If the claim is made, "If the police need it , I need it." then it appears to me the reason why the police need it is a valid part of the conversation. Notice they always bring up "to defend themselves" which of course is one reason the police need it. but they always avoid the "Acting on behalf of others" part of why the police need it.
Hence the bright line demarkation between those who chose to serve their communities and this country, with those who don't.

The Yang to balance the Ying.
__________________
Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.
Patchman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 20:14   #220
Aux Bear
Senior Member
 
Aux Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SW Chicago Suburbs
Posts: 429
Send a message via ICQ to Aux Bear
Cart vs. Horse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
The police defend themselves while they are doing their job. I defend myself while I am living my life.

Again, I'm not looking for trouble but it may come to me. At that moment I need all the same guns the police need.

Did it ever occur to you that we have to have them because YOU have them! Duh! We have SOG. 20 officers with semi-auto assult rifles in the largest county in Illinois. We, the regular guys, qualify with Glock 22s or 23s and the good old 870. They are available to respond, within an hour, anywhere in the county. So what is it you need?
__________________
Certified Glock Armorer
Certified Police Firearms Instructor
Certified IL CCW Instructor
Aux Bear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 20:26   #221
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,828
Blog Entries: 1
The simple answer, I dont need to explain why I "need" something.

WTF do I need a huge flat screen TV? Why do I need a car that exceeds 75mph?

What the police need is irrelevant to what I need. Maybe I need the same thing as them, maybe I don't. But I sure as hell shouldn't need to justify why I need high cap mags by saying police need them.

On a funny note, I have seen the arguments how the police are professionals and can handle themselves under stress better. This means they should be BETTER shots and need FEWER bullets than civilians who will miss more. Therefore POLICE should be limited to 10 round mags and us clumsy good for nothing poor shots will need higher capacity magazines to defend ourselves since we will likely miss.
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 20:30   #222
Rabbi
Lifetime Membership
The Bombdiggity
 
Rabbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San AntonioTexas
Posts: 29,873


Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
The simple answer, I dont need to explain why I "need" something.

WTF do I need a huge flat screen TV? Why do I need a car that exceeds 75mph?

What the police need is irrelevant to what I need. Maybe I need the same thing as them, maybe I don't. But I sure as hell shouldn't need to justify why I need high cap mags by saying police need them.

On a funny note, I have seen the arguments how the police are professionals and can handle themselves under stress better. This means they should be BETTER shots and need FEWER bullets than civilians who will miss more. Therefore POLICE should be limited to 10 round mags and us clumsy good for nothing poor shots will need higher capacity magazines to defend ourselves since we will likely miss.
Sometimes you make some good points. Sometimes you get absurd...You did the absurd thing here.

And we, all of us, have to justify things all the time. It is often a good thing. It helps keep lethal doses of polonium out of your corn flakes and such.
__________________
In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
Rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 20:33   #223
Patchman
Florist
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Land of Flora, Fauna & Merriweather
Posts: 11,559
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
On a funny note, I have seen the arguments how the police are professionals and can handle themselves under stress better. This means they should be BETTER shots and need FEWER bullets than civilians who will miss more. Therefore POLICE should be limited to 10 round mags and us clumsy good for nothing poor shots will need higher capacity magazines to defend ourselves since we will likely miss.
And on a funnier note, I've read many non-LEO posters opine they're much better shooters than LEOs... etc, etc... And which may be perfectly true. So who (as a group) should need lesser capacity mags?
__________________
Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.

Last edited by Patchman; 12-30-2012 at 20:35..
Patchman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 20:35   #224
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,828
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
And on a funnier note, I've read many non-LEO posters opine they're much better shooters than LEOs... etc, etc...
Obviously those one should get 5 round mags...
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 20:36   #225
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,828
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
Sometimes you make some good points. Sometimes you get absurd...You did the absurd thing here.

And we, all of us, have to justify things all the time. It is often a good thing. It helps keep lethal doses of polonium out of your corn flakes and such.
I never claimed to need plutonium in my corn flakes.
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 00:54.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 798
235 Members
563 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42