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Old 12-27-2012, 23:36   #151
JuneyBooney
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
none of that conversation makes any sense. First how would they even know the make of the weapon? second, cops go in after armed criminal, active shooter or not on a regular basis. THIRD, cops are not rained to "disarm" active shooters to begin with.
I was always told that after shooting the shooter you remove the gun from their hand. Good arguments there, Dragoon.
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Old 12-27-2012, 23:46   #152
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Interesting discussion.

The OP's original statement--that private citizens need the same weapons as police since, potentially, they could encounter the same threat--has appeal, I think, as away of explaining the private citizen's need for certain weapon types to people who question that need.

Yes, police and civilians have differing roles and responsibilities, but, at the end of the day, the person who is a threat to a police officer is a threat to the law abiding private citizen.

Police armament has evolved, over time, to keep pace with technology and the threat.

American private citizens have traditionally looked to police weaponry to make their own choices. When revolvers and shotguns were most commonly used by police, they were also the most common choices among private citizens.

Today, service size semi auto pistols in 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP and semi auto rifles in .223/5.56 are common police weapons. Shotguns and small frame revolvers and semi autos are also common among police.

So, not surprisingly, these are the weapons that private citizens looking for self defense firearms will turn to.

So, I like the OP's premise. Police or private citizen, we face, potentially, the same threat. It is not unreasonable, therefore, for private citizens to look to police agencies' weapons and ammunition choices before making their own choices.
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Old 12-28-2012, 00:23   #153
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I'm military and it works well for me on duty so it should work well for me off, not that I'm ever officially off. I'm comfortable and familiar with the M4/M16 platforms, so all I ask is to let me use the weapons I use to defend myself against foreign enemies over here against domestic enemies at home. Not that it is relevant to the discussion but I was in body armor all day yesterday. Never attended a driving skills class. Using words to deescalating violent situations doesn't work over here and I doubt it'd be useful defending my home.
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:12   #154
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While I certainly think no further restrictions should be placed on the populace, and oppose any attempt to reinstate the AWB, to say that the needs of police are the same as that of the average citizen is fundamentally incorrect.
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Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
My own my mother, on a Christmas phone call, asks my opinion of assault weapons. After explaining to her that there is no such thing and that they just look like army guns, and describing the difference between automatic army guns versus semi-automatic civilian guns. . .

She asks, "Why do you need one of these so-called assault weapons anyway?!"

My final convincing response to her was, "Why do the police need them?" To defend themselves from bad guys, she said. "Well, that's the same reason I need them." Oh, that's true, she said, as if a light bulb had gone on.

Yup, I continued, the same bad guys the police face are the same bad guys any civilian might need to fight off. Whatever the police need for defense, I need too.

Please feel free to pass this on: If the police need "assault weapons" and high capacity magazines, we need them too

Edited to add:
Obvioulsly it should be undertood the context is in when the bad guys come looking for us, and not about us civilians going out looking for bad guys
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:55   #155
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Originally Posted by Bill Lumberg View Post
While I certainly think no further restrictions should be placed on the populace, and oppose any attempt to reinstate the AWB, to say that the needs of police are the same as that of the average citizen is fundamentally incorrect.
Would you say that police need a semi-automatic rifle with a 20 or 30 round magazine, but that I do not?

If such a rifle is only good for mass shootings and are no good for defense of self and loved ones, then why do the police have them?

I assert that my position is indeed fundamentally correct

And even more than that, it is an effective argument to use in discussions with people who may be starting to lean anti-gun because of media saturation of the few criminal misuses of guns looking like military guns but also carried by the police.

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Old 12-28-2012, 11:13   #156
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For a pretty overwhelming example of this when it comes to the lefts arguments about gun control, it is very hard to overcome the math of (lack) gun violence in places like Japan. It is a check in the "win" column for the anti-gun crowd.

Japan is about culture, not guns.

Sort of like the inner city but opposite.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:26   #157
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Why the hell do we have to justify "needs" when it comes to firearms? That right there is the question. When someone asks me why I need something like an ar-15, I wonder, Who the ****** are you to ask me that?"
You have opined the thoughts of many.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:31   #158
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Originally Posted by Smithers View Post
For a pretty overwhelming example of this when it comes to the lefts arguments about gun control, it is very hard to overcome the math of (lack) gun violence in places like Japan. It is a check in the "win" column for the anti-gun crowd.

Japan is about culture, not guns.

Sort of like the inner city but opposite.
Policing socities like Japan, and most of the world is very different. If you are disrespectful to Japanese law enforcement, they have no compunction to beating you.

The Guardia Civil in Spain will also beat the crap out of you for mouthing off. This is toned down from their past when they would simply use a submachine gun on you if you disrespected them.

America is a different place, where the citizens feel is a tradition to disrespect authority, and assault and murder their police.

So, yes, there are real cultural and legal differences between our country and Japan.



The following video is NSFW

The guy in the video lost his job over this. However, it depicts how it seems our society feels in general toward LEOs, and what you CAN'T do in the United States, but what WOULD happen pretty much anywhere else in the world:

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Old 12-28-2012, 11:42   #159
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Originally Posted by Bill Lumberg View Post
While I certainly think no further restrictions should be placed on the populace, and oppose any attempt to reinstate the AWB, to say that the needs of police are the same as that of the average citizen is fundamentally incorrect.
How so? The semi-auto rifle is 19th century technology and the police have only recently gotten on board with this technology on a large scale.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:48   #160
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How so? The semi-auto rifle is 19th century technology and the police have only recently gotten on board with this technology on a large scale.
You sure they are Semi-Auto? I used to carry an SBR with the fun switch. I miss the fun switch, it required muzzle discipline and trigger control. You had to tickle it to get your 3 round bursts. Now, everything is a 3 round burst, requiring you to mash the trigger, which feels unatural after years of the full fun swtich.

The happiest times at the range is with the fun switch. If you haven't had the opportuntiy, there isn't anything quite like it. It has zero practical application, IMHO. It is a jam looking to happen, especially in the Colt DI's.
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Old 12-28-2012, 13:13   #161
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I was thinking about this the other day. The fact that police and military need high capacity "clips" proves that there are scenarios where they'd come in handy. Police and military folks are far more likely to have to use theirs than I would be. But still, there's a chance I might find myself in one of those situations.
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Old 12-28-2012, 14:00   #162
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Rabbi and Lumberg are correct. Just because police or military need it has nothing to do with whether you need it. Apples and oranges. I want all 922 compliant folks to have the option, but their need is in no way cparable to the need of LE.
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Old 12-28-2012, 14:10   #163
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Originally Posted by el_jewapo View Post
I was thinking about this the other day. The fact that police and military need high capacity "clips" proves that there are scenarios where they'd come in handy. Police and military folks are far more likely to have to use theirs than I would be. But still, there's a chance I might find myself in one of those situations.
What is a clip?
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Old 12-28-2012, 14:23   #164
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I don't wish to speak for others, but here's my take on the differences between civilian need and LE need.

Civilians don't have to have a "need". You get it, because you can. You don't, and should never, have to justify a need to buy any type of gun (I personally include NFA items in this, as I'd immediately repeal it, GCA '68, and the import ban of '86 were I in charge).

We, as LE, have to justify a "need" for a particular firearm, in order to convince the brass to allow it. Active shooters are, quite unfortunately, the "need" for urban and suburban agencies that allow patrol rifles. Distance shots for barricaded subjects are more likely for the rural departments, as well as having to put down critters (although shotguns typically fill that latter role).

Since its not likely that anyone NOT in LE will be responding to an active shooter, then its easy to say that civilians don't "need" the patrol rifle platform for defense against one. Thankfully, civilians aren't required to have a need, despite the politicians rhetoric.

You guys can have, and carry, pretty much whatever you want - and that's the way it should be. Agencies restrict officers to certain weapons, usually in accordance with their specific mission requirements, but PC runs amok there, as well. And you know, PC aside, there are a lot of good reasons to mandate certain weapons in LE.
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Old 12-28-2012, 14:33   #165
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Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
I don't wish to speak for others, but here's my take on the differences between civilian need and LE need.

Civilians don't have to have a "need". You get it, because you can. You don't, and should never, have to justify a need to buy any type of gun (I personally include NFA items in this, as I'd immediately repeal it, GCA '68, and the import ban of '86 were I in charge).

We, as LE, have to justify a "need" for a particular firearm, in order to convince the brass to allow it. Active shooters are, quite unfortunately, the "need" for urban and suburban agencies that allow patrol rifles. Distance shots for barricaded subjects are more likely for the rural departments, as well as having to put down critters (although shotguns typically fill that latter role).

Since its not likely that anyone NOT in LE will be responding to an active shooter, then its easy to say that civilians don't "need" the patrol rifle platform for defense against one. Thankfully, civilians aren't required to have a need, despite the politicians rhetoric.

You guys can have, and carry, pretty much whatever you want - and that's the way it should be. Agencies restrict officers to certain weapons, usually in accordance with their specific mission requirements, but PC runs amok there, as well. And you know, PC aside, there are a lot of good reasons to mandate certain weapons in LE.
I am with you on repealing the NFA. But, then again, I started a whole thread on that issue. I wish it was like the old days, where you could go into any hardware store and buy a firearm.
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Old 12-28-2012, 14:42   #166
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When was the last time you wore body armor all day long?
never but then again statistically most cops never get shot at or have to shoot there guns in their careers. So you don't need it either.

When was the last time you went to a driving skills
class?
Last week

When was the last time you went to a class to learn how to deescalate violent situations with your words?

October.
We have 3 that are LEO and you are very right. Stay safe.And a happy new year to your and yours.
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Old 12-28-2012, 14:44   #167
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When was the last time you wore body armor all day long?
never but then again statistically most cops never get shot at or have to shoot there guns in their careers. So you don't need it either.
Just so you know, you just proved your complete ignorance, stupidity, and lack of common sense all in one sentence. Good job.

Statistically speaking, most people wont have a fire in their house either, but I am willing to be most have smoke detectors and fire extinguisher(s) in their house. So you dont really need them either.

Statistically speaking, most people will never be involved in an auto crash serious enough to involve or require airbag deployment, but those idiots at the car manufacturers just keep putting those damn things in there!

Statistically speaking, most semi trucks will never have a catastrophic failure of their air system, but they still design the air brakes to engage in the event of loss of air pressure. Technically they dont really need to have this fail safe design.



Care for me to go on?
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Old 12-28-2012, 14:48   #168
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I was always told that after shooting the shooter you remove the gun from their hand. Good arguments there, Dragoon.
Yet again Juney....your assumptions of what you know about police tactics an training are just that. Assumptions....

We have actually been trained for quite some time now, that if the shooter is obviously dead there really is no reason to go ****ing up the crime scene by moving weapons around. Somehow I think the act of kicking a gun away from a guy whos head is blown open is probably not particularly gainful.
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Old 12-28-2012, 15:08   #169
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Since its not likely that anyone NOT in LE will be responding to an active shooter, then its easy to say that civilians don't "need" the patrol rifle platform for defense against one. Thankfully, civilians aren't required to have a need, despite the politicians rhetoric.

You guys can have, and carry, pretty much whatever you want - and that's the way it should be. ..
But even when talking about need, it will be the civilian pinned down by, or barricaded against, an active shooter. The need is there, and the accuracy of an AR over a handgun is apparent even at inside the home distances.

For example, a woman who has retreated to the top of a stairs during a home invasion will have her needs well served by an AR to keep the kidnapper/rapist/murderers at the bottom of the stairs
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Old 12-28-2012, 16:42   #170
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You do know that a home invasion is not an active shooter, right? Its kinda in the wording and all - "active shooter".


Again, I don't see a reason for civilians to justify a weapon for need. You can have whatever you want. If you want an AR for home defense, have at it. Prefer a shotgun? Good for you. If you're more comfortable with a pistol, do your thing.

Point is, there's no "need" for you to have a need. I'm on your side here. Its just a matter of semantics, really. Since LE are in the business of actively engaging bad guys who are doing bad things, there exists a need for officers to be equipped with certain weapon systems, and agencies should be able to justify why they use those platforms.

Since civilians aren't in the same business, and aren't required to engage bad guys doing bad things, they don't need to justify anything. They simply buy guns because they want to - its just that easy. Sure, you can contrive any number of scenarios in which an AR would be the more desirable platform - but, you don't NEED to have that justification. See what I'm trying to say?
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Old 12-28-2012, 17:01   #171
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You do know that a home invasion is not an active shooter, right? Its kinda in the wording and all - "active shooter".

. See what I'm trying to say?
Yes I see what you are trying to say, that we don't need to justify need But the anti-gun people seem to need us to do so.

What is the definition of the police jargon "active shooter"?

I mistook it to mean someone who is actively shooting. A bad guy, shooting at good guys. But you may have a much more specific definition in mind.
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Old 12-28-2012, 17:13   #172
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Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
Yes I see what you are trying to say, that we don't need to justify need But the anti-gun people seem to need us to do so.

What is the definition of the police jargon "active shooter"?

I mistook it to mean someone who is actively shooting. A bad guy, shooting at good guys. But you may have a much more specific definition in mind.
Active shooter ie Aurora, Columbine, Sandy Hook. A situation in which an officer responds to somebody actively shooting a place/people/good guys/whoever, whether it be a business, school, etc etc.

We have to justify the need for certain weapons due to policy.

Ya'll are choosing your weapons because it's your right to, and no other justification is needed. Similar to choosing what you want to eat, the car you want to drive, etc. etc. No justification is needed to exercise a right, because a right is a right.

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Old 12-28-2012, 17:24   #173
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How so? The semi-auto rifle is 19th century technology and the police have only recently gotten on board with this technology on a large scale.
The fundamental flaw is assuming LE needs have anything to do with the second amendment. To me, a more meaningful comparison is with military needs.
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Old 12-28-2012, 17:37   #174
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I'm military and it works well for me on duty so it should work well for me off, not that I'm ever officially off. I'm comfortable and familiar with the M4/M16 platforms, so all I ask is to let me use the weapons I use to defend myself against foreign enemies over here against domestic enemies at home. Not that it is relevant to the discussion but I was in body armor all day yesterday. Never attended a driving skills class. Using words to deescalating violent situations doesn't work over here and I doubt it'd be useful defending my home.
That is the salient point of all of this. It should not be citizens possessing what the Police have. It should be about Posessing, what YOU, as the military have, as the is the original intent of the 2A.
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Old 12-28-2012, 19:14   #175
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If the police need it, I need it.

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I dont disagree...
(emphasis mine) THIS^

hey ithaca_deerslayer,
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