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Old 12-26-2012, 06:29   #76
Patchman
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The proper frame of reference is, if it's availalbe in the U.S., then all U.S. LE should be allowed to have them. (And this measure only makes LE equal to the BGs, who still have the advantage of picking the time and place of ambush).

We see once again it's patrol officers, and those first on the scene, who need them the most.



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Spengler’s mayhem was disrupted by a Webster police officer who returned fire with a rifle.
Quote:
Had that police officer not been there more people would have been killed because he immediately engaged the shooter with a rifle. Pickering said.


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Old 12-26-2012, 06:30   #77
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It matters little to the other side what we believe is my guess. And it does not matter to them that some of the societies with low crime and strict gun laws have societies that are different, much less diverse, etc. What should be important to us is trying to understand their side, their arguments and being to offer cogent civil responses when we can.
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:32   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BodymoreMurderland

Many police departments do not issue or allow rifles
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Originally Posted by BodymoreMurderland View Post
No many departments don't including the 8th largest police dept. in the country which I work for.
I guess it would suck to be on your department. Of course after looking at your grid coordinates, it's not surprising they don't allow you to have rifles.

My department has rifles and we carry them in electra-lock racks with our shotguns. Most of the agencies in AK have them.

Of course we have to buy our own. They aren't mandatory, but we do highly encourage officers to obtain and carry them.

I put the officers through a patrol rifle class (I'm also a police firearms instructor) and we train and qualify with them the same as our other firearms.

We pretty much use our ARs exclusively on our serious calls. It's rare the shotguns come out of the rack anymore except for wildlife calls.

With frangible ammo such as Hornady TAP, the rifle is much more precise and safer to use than a shotgun with a bead sight, especially when your distances open a little bit. Plus the rifles have holographic or red dot sights making them faster to pick up and use in low light and Streamlight TLRs mounted on the rails.

In addition, due to my grid coordinates and the big furry wildlife issues we have to confront from May to October, I had to come up with a policy regarding the training, use and carrriage of big game rifles and the ammunition for them. Training isn't really an issue in this area for the most part because most of us already have a lot of experience with hunting rifles and killing stuff. The vast majority of training I have to do is changing the mindset of just grabbing any off-the-shelf junk ammuntion and loading up. I try to stress the importance of using high-end ammo with premium bullets on DLP bear kills. Of course reloads are allowed and the .30-06 is the minimum caliber.

One of the guys carries either a Marlin 1895 in .45-70 with max book handloads or a Ruger Haweye in .35 Whelen Improved. Another uses a .30-06, one a .375 Win. and I ocillate between a Win. M-70 in .375 H&H that I call the sewer pipe and a .30-06.
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:37   #79
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Here's something interesting.

Quote:
Spengler also unloaded rounds into the car of John Ritter, an off-duty police officer, who parked his car in the line of fire. Ritter was wounded by shrapnel from the fusillade.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:08   #80
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Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
I live in a rural area, and if bad guys decided to invade my home at 2:00AM, My 7 year old daughter and I are "on our own". The weapon I'll choose to grab during that moment of duress will be an AR-15. Why? 'Cause that is what police and military use during their moments of greatest duress... and I have much less tactical support than they do.
I have an AR issued to me and I have to qualify with it a minimum of 4 times a year.

With that in mind, if somebody invaded my home, I would prefer to grab my Remington 870 or .45. IMO, the 12 gauge would be more effective in close quarters and if I was forced to fire shots inside my house with loved ones also present, I would rather it be #4 shot than .223 rounds. I don't load it with buckshot for home defense.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:16   #81
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Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
Funny, I don't see it mentioned at all in any of those BORs...guess that means the police, like our rights to bear arms in defense of self don't exist? The closest reference is the 4th, and yet, no mention of "police", "constable" or "sheriff" there.

Yep, like you figured, police, like your right to bear arms in defense of property and/or self didn't exist then.
The Constituation lists the highest law enforcement official as the Sheriff. Look it up. You won't find it in the Bill of Rights, btw.


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Old 12-26-2012, 07:18   #82
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
The proper frame of reference is, if it's availalbe in the U.S., then all U.S. LE should be allowed to have them. (And this measure only makes LE equal to the BGs, who still have the advantage of picking the time and place of ambush).


We see once again it's patrol officers, and those first on the scene, who need them the most.








[COLOR=#000000]
It hardly makes them equal. The BG's aren't restricted by any ATF regulation. They use whatever they can get their hands on. In Puerto Rico that can include nasty things like Law Rockets.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:18   #83
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Here's something interesting.


Yes, and in NY all police officers can, on and off duty have access to the very evil assault rifles and high capacity magazines already banned here, that they want to ban for everyone nationwide.

That off-duty cop is simply bad ass, hands down, no debate.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:20   #84
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Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
Yes, and in NY all police officers can, on and off duty have access to the very evil assault rifles and high capacity magazines already banned here, that they want to ban for everyone nationwide.

That off-duty cop is simply bad ass, hands down, no debate.
The rifle or the shotgun or the handgun is not what makes an officer a bad ass. It starts with officer presence.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:50   #85
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Originally Posted by norton View Post
70 years ago the Japanese people were convinced their emperor was a God.
70 years ago their military thought sneak attacking the Americans at Pearl Harbor was a good idea.
Japan is currently described as one of the most racist nations in the world.
We really want to be adopt their philosophy?
Japanese girls are "Hawt"
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:51   #86
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
The rifle or the shotgun or the handgun is not what makes an officer a bad ass. It starts with officer presence.

You are lecturing to the wrong dude about what makes or not makes a bad ass. You see, I am eminently qualified on that topic, being I am the biggest coward ever.


No. It starts with the will to win, and the will to leverage one's life in the aid of another. Officer presence has nothing to do with being a bad ass.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:59   #87
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The Police need hepatitis B inoculation shots, do you?

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Old 12-26-2012, 08:01   #88
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Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
You are lecturing to the wrong dude about what makes or not makes a bad ass. You see, I am eminently qualified on that topic, being I am the biggest coward ever.


No. It starts with the will to win, and the will to leverage one's life in the aid of another. Officer presence has nothing to do with being a bad ass.
Part of it. But, officer presence has a lot to do with it as well. If you are sloppy food blister, no one is going to take you seriously if you are in uniform. In fact, you are viewed more as prey.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:06   #89
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Originally Posted by TBO View Post
The Police need hepatitis B inoculation shots, do you?

..

Yes, I do. In fact, thank you for reminding me, I have to do my 6 month follow up shot before Jan 31.

Also gotta make sure either my AHA or ARC CPR stuff is up to snuff as well.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:07   #90
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Part of it. But, officer presence has a lot to do with it as well. If you are sloppy food blister, no one is going to take you seriously if you are in uniform. In fact, you are viewed more as prey.

I was talking about THIS particular bad ass. I don't recall reading he was in uniform, or driving a marked LE vehicle. I only read that he was "off duty".

Sorry for not being more clear.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:19   #91
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The Police need hepatitis B inoculation shots, do you?

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Yeah, those are a joy when you get a blood test by the doctor and they see the antibodies and freak out that you may have a problem. No, it is just that I have been inoculated is all.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:20   #92
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Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
I was talking about THIS particular bad ass. I don't recall reading he was in uniform, or driving a marked LE vehicle. I only read that he was "off duty".

Sorry for not being more clear.
I was speaking in the general sense.

When I am off duty or plain clothes, I prefer to NOT look like an LEO.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:23   #93
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In many first world countries, where guns are strictly controlled or functionally outlawed there is very little gun crime.
Although the data point seems to exist, I am not sure the causation can of the lower crime rate can be attributed to lack of guns. If is was that clear, I would be able to directly see it.

The town I live in, when I am living in Germany, is actually split between Switzerland and Germany. On one side (Germany) guns are essentially not allowed and walking 400m almost every male citizen has a machine gun in their house. And yes, the machine gun thing is not a myth. When I worked in Switzerland, we had day when the guy in active reserve service had to shoot their yearly qualification, and there were a few Sig Stgw90 at work.

So if the causation could be made, Switzerland would have a higher crime rate than Germany and in fact Germany is ranked #7 in murders with firearms and Switzerland is ranked #17.


This is not an attack against you, it is simply showing that cause and effect and often are based upon false conclusions.

It much like saying "speed doesn't kill" look at the German Autobahns. When a high speed wreck occurs, it is often very deadly. The reason the death rate is much lower, is much better drivers. Compare Switerzland and Germany (with similar drivers and following the rules) and the German autobahns are much more dangerous than Swiss autobahns (with 120kmh limit).

False conclusions to support a side are often made.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:29   #94
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The Police need hepatitis B inoculation shots, do you?

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Also, I "needed" to sprayed in the face with OC spray to see how I would react to it. I wonder if anyone would voluntarily line up for that like the Police do.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:46   #95
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Originally Posted by MAJ View Post
Japanese girls are "Hawt"
(Agreed btw)
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:52   #96
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Originally Posted by stevelyn View Post
...
We pretty much use our ARs exclusively on our serious calls. It's rare the shotguns come out of the rack anymore except for wildlife calls.

....
What kind of wildlife? Why is the shotgun the choice for wildlife? Is it more reliable for stopping them/it?
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:08   #97
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For a pretty overwhelming example of this when it comes to the lefts arguments about gun control, it is very hard to overcome the math of (lack) gun violence in places like Japan. It is a check in the "win" column for the anti-gun crowd.
It is only a "win" for them if they can convince people to overlook the obvious slight of hand contained in that argument.

Quote:
gun violence in places like Japan
This is not a fact, so much as a tactic. We all know that someone killed with a knife is as dead as someone killed with a gun, but limiting the argument to "gun violence" automatically excludes a discussion of violent crime, overall, and a discussion of violent crime in context of that country's history of violent crime. Even with Japan's National Police having, allegedly, underreported crime, Japan's overall crime and violent crime have been increasing even faster than ours has been decreasing.

Quote:
Aug. 8 (Bloomberg) -- Japan had the highest number of murders, armed robberies and other violent crimes during the first six months of this year since it began keeping such data in 1989, the Nihon Keizai newspaper said, citing a police report.

...increase of 17 percent from the same period the year before......robberies rose 25 percent ... homicide increased 12 percent... 10 percent increase in reported rape cases... murders and arsons committed by juveniles increased 87 percent...A total of 945 elementary school students became victims of sex crimes, up 46 percent. The number of cases involving all types of crimes fell 0.9 percent to 12,574, the first such decline on a half-year basis in eight years, the report said.
So the purpose of using the anti-gunner terminology is to distract you from reality and support the argument that guns cause crime, even when the evidence really says the opposite.

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Last edited by Bren; 12-26-2012 at 09:11..
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:38   #98
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Thanks Rabbi, learning has occurred.
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Old 12-26-2012, 18:29   #99
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I have an AR issued to me and I have to qualify with it a minimum of 4 times a year.

With that in mind, if somebody invaded my home, I would prefer to grab my Remington 870 or .45. IMO, the 12 gauge would be more effective in close quarters and if I was forced to fire shots inside my house with loved ones also present, I would rather it be #4 shot than .223 rounds. I don't load it with buckshot for home defense.
That's cool. It's all about having choices. Ultimately this thread is about a point of debate that can be used to sway the mind of an anti --thats it. Having said that, I like shotguns too, I have two Benelli's and an 870, and that's good... 'cause I don't think any of them will be on the chopping block in the next potential AWB.

I personally would never choose a pistol for fighting if there was a rifle or shotgun available -- and given the choice between rifle or shotgun, I'd choose rifle. The M4 style rifle I keep available at night is shorter, lighter, and higher capacity than any of my shotguns. In spite of it's widespread use as a defensive arm, I view the shotgun as more of an "experts" weapon in that role. It's heavy, long, and high recoil... and at 3:00am if I was awakened from a dead sleep I'd rather not deal with all that.

That's what trips my trigger though, YMMV. As long as our choices are based on reality, were ok. But if one were to avoid the .223/ 5.56 round because they think it retains more killing power than their 9mm after penetrating building materials (it doesn't), because they think the bullet "tumbles" in flight (it doesn't), or because they think the shotgun is better because they don't need to aim it as carefully -- then they are operating based on myth and misconception.
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Last edited by OlliesRevenge; 12-26-2012 at 18:33..
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Old 12-26-2012, 19:13   #100
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Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
...

I personally would never choose a pistol for fighting if there was a rifle or shotgun available -- and given the choice between rifle or shotgun, I'd choose rifle. ...

I try to avoid the word "never" when I am talking about firearms tactics. I can envision any of a few scenarios where I would find a handgun far more applicable than a long-arm. It would surprise me if you too, with some consideration were not able to arrive at that conclusion.

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