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Old 12-25-2012, 13:42   #26
HexHead
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
It is a soundbite at best.
That's all the argument the Left ever uses.
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Old 12-25-2012, 13:50   #27
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Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
My own my mother, on a Christmas phone call, asks my opinion of assault weapons. After explaining to her that there is no such thing and that they just look like army guns, and describing the difference between automatic army guns versus semi-automatic civilian guns. . .

She asks, "Why do you need one of these so-called assault weapons anyway?!"

My final convincing response to her was, "Why do the police need them?" To defend themselves from bad guys, she said. "Well, that's the same reason I need them." Oh, that's true, she said, as if a light bulb had gone on.

Yup, I continued, the same bad guys the police face are the same bad guys any civilian might need to fight off. Whatever the police need for defense, I need too.
Actually, you can argue that you need it more. How often are the police at the scene while a violent crime is being committed against a civilian victim? Very rarely.

How often is a civilian victim at the scene while a violent crime is being committed against a civilian victim? Every single time. The counter-argument is that the police go to violent crime scense every day, while you may never be a victim or probably no more than a few times in your life...but you only get killed once.
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Old 12-25-2012, 13:58   #28
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Originally Posted by shotgunred View Post
When was the last time you wore body armor all day long?
never but then again statistically most cops never get shot at or have to shoot there guns in their careers. So you don't need it either.

When was the last time you went to a driving skills
class?

Last week

When was the last time you went to a class to learn how to deescalate violent situations with your words?

October.
The great flaw in your argument is you use the statistics of anomalies while standing on the podium of being one to prove a point.
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Old 12-25-2012, 13:59   #29
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Sounds like he wanted an LA Riot, but no one would join him.

If the Police just defended themselves, they would stay at the station or at home and not respond to calls.

That is as silly as saying that the Military in in Afghanistan are only protecting themselves and not engaging in warfare.

Very, very, silly.
The police defend themselves while they are doing their job. I defend myself while I am living my life.

Again, I'm not looking for trouble but it may come to me. At that moment I need all the same guns the police need.
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Old 12-25-2012, 14:00   #30
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Originally Posted by BodymoreMurderland View Post
Many police departments do not issue or allow rifles.
Um... how bout no. Every municipal department in the county I work for, including the sheriff's office I work for, either issues rifles, or allows the carry of a personally owned AR. I have yet to see a single department in my state that doesn't allow AR's as long as the officer has attended a rifle course.

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Old 12-25-2012, 14:01   #31
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Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
Yup, I continued, the same bad guys the police face are the same bad guys any civilian might need to fight off. Whatever the police need for defense, I need too.

Please feel free to pass this on: If the police need "assault weapons" and high capacity magazines, we need them too

Edited to add:
Obvioulsly it should be undertood the context is in when the bad guys come looking for us, and not about us civilians going out looking for bad guys
Thanks OP, for a well thought out argument of why we "need" semiautomatic rifles that accept high cap mags. Your post has apparantly been misunderstood by some, but I read you loud and clear.

You never stated that your argument directly related to the 2A, you simply posted a good argument for "need" that could be related to an anti, and I agree wholeheartedly.

Your argument has zero holes in it - Do we need handcuffs? No... but that is a non sequitur. We are not in the business of arresting bad guys and taking them to jail... police are. By the same logic, we don't need lights and sirens either. I can wear body armor if I choose to, but there is no requirement for me to do so.

Police use high capacity semiautomatic rifles because that just happens to be the single most effective portable weapon a man can hold in his hands (there is a reason they give them to Marines, albeit the select fire version). The 2A protects our right to own such a weapon.

Comparing a confrontation between police and bad guy -- and civilian and bad guy, the police actually have benefits the civilian doesn't. The police have radios, and can summon backup to support them -- the civilian is more likely to be taken by surprise when confronting the same bad guy police might have had to face-- and can merely call 911. Depending on where they are calling from, help may be a long time coming.

I live in a rural area, and if bad guys decided to invade my home at 2:00AM, My 7 year old daughter and I are "on our own". The weapon I'll choose to grab during that moment of duress will be an AR-15. Why? 'Cause that is what police and military use during their moments of greatest duress... and I have much less tactical support than they do.
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Old 12-25-2012, 14:06   #32
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Originally Posted by HexHead View Post
That's all the argument the Left ever uses.
While most people on both sides are pretty much limited to soundbite arguments, you do your side a massive diservice if you dont recognize that the opposition may very well have some very valid points. The left does.

You can disagree with them (as I often do) but that doesnt change the validity of the arguement.

For a pretty overwhelming example of this when it comes to the lefts arguments about gun control, it is very hard to overcome the math of (lack) gun violence in places like Japan. It is a check in the "win" column for the anti-gun crowd.

Someone wins the superbowl. After it is all over, there is a winner and they get the glory for that....but dont forget the hard battle that took place. Dont forget that the other side had some impressive performances as well. Dont forget that victory can often be by a slim margin.

To sum it up, dont underestimate or dismiss the other side and just because "they do it" doesnt solve YOUR problems.
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Old 12-25-2012, 14:09   #33
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Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
The police defend themselves while they are doing their job. I defend myself while I am living my life.

Again, I'm not looking for trouble but it may come to me. At that moment I need all the same guns the police need.
If your argument is to be valid, Again, why do you not wear body armor all the time? If you make it just about the gun, your argument will be dismissed, and it is somewhat valid to do so.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 12-25-2012, 14:13   #34
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Originally Posted by CLoft239 View Post
Um... how bout no. Every municipal department in the county I work for, including the sheriff's office I work for, either issues rifles, or allows the carry of a personally owned AR. I have yet to see a single department in my state that doesn't allow AR's as long as the officer has attended a rifle course.

Sent from the Titanic. I named my phone "The Titanic" so when I plug it into the computer it says "The Titanic is syncing".
I know of agencies that do not allow rifles. I know of others that do not issue them. SAPD, (San Antonio 7th largest city in the country) does not issue them to Patrol and it was not until a few short years ago they started letting some Officers carry one. At some agencies, only supervisors can have a rifle.

The idea that even among some departments, some officer cant have certain weapons weakens the hell out of the argument that "if they police can have them, so should I"...an anti cant destroy that by pointing out "in some cases Police dont...."
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 12-25-2012, 14:16   #35
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Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
...
You can disagree with them (as I often do) but that doesnt change the validity of the arguement.

For a pretty overwhelming example of this when it comes to the lefts arguments about gun control, it is very hard to overcome the math of (lack) gun violence in places like Japan. It is a check in the "win" column for the anti-gun crowd.

. ...

To sum it up, dont underestimate or dismiss the other side and just because "they do it" doesnt solve YOUR problems.

I agree and for a while I have thought that every time we summarily dismiss that side and their arguments and every time we resort to calling them names, we potentially weaken our ability to prosper in the ongoing debate.
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Old 12-25-2012, 14:17   #36
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For a pretty overwhelming example of this when it comes to the lefts arguments about gun control, it is very hard to overcome the math of (lack) gun violence in places like Japan. It is a check in the "win" column for the anti-gun crowd.


That is not anything close to valid unless taken only on the surface. In fact, this is a good example of the 'sound-bite' you refer to.
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Old 12-25-2012, 14:24   #37
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For a pretty overwhelming example of this when it comes to the lefts arguments about gun control, it is very hard to overcome the math of (lack) gun violence in places like Japan. It is a check in the "win" column for the anti-gun crowd.


That is not anything close to valid unless taken only on the surface. In fact, this is a good example of the 'sound-bite' you refer to.
YOU might not think it is valid but it is a mathematical reality that in many Nations with very strict gun control, you have very very low gun violence. It is anything but a soundbite, it is damned well vetted math.

Of course you can present counters that argument, of course you can disagree with why that is....but you cant dismiss it. It is a powerful argument for the antis side.

You have to accept that. Again, you can not dismiss it. This is a touchdown for the other team. You dont have to like it. It may sting. You may think it is unfair, but it happened. You have to deal with it and move on. You may still win the game but this moment is theirs.

To be a total ass about this, one of the problem with most any issue is most of the people involved dont understand how to argue. They sure know how they feel but they simply have not developed the tools to understand the current state of both sides of the issue.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 12-25-2012, 14:37   #38
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Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
YOU might not think it is valid but it is a mathematical reality that in many Nations with very strict gun control, you have very very low gun violence. It is anything but a soundbite, it is damned well vetted math.

Of course you can present counters that argument, of course you can disagree with why that is....but you cant dismiss it. It is a powerful argument for the antis side.

You have to accept that. Again, you can not dismiss it. This is a touchdown for the other team. You dont have to like it. It may sting. You may think it is unfair, but it happened. You have to deal with it and move on. You may still win the game but this moment is theirs.

To be a total ass about this, one of the problem with most any issue is most of the people involved dont understand how to argue. They sure know how they feel but they simply have not developed the tools to understand the current state of both sides of the issue.
Sure, we can spike the football using disingenuous argument comparing paternalistic social controlled homogeneous societies to the United States.
It's not about ME or YOU, it's simply a bad argument, and not a check in the 'win' column, just as the same type of control NOT working in the former Soviet Union doesn't constitute a win for pro gun arguments.

Part of good debate still requires a good argument, otherwise it's just soundbite material, as you put it.
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Old 12-25-2012, 14:41   #39
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Sure, we can spike the football using disingenuous argument comparing paternalistic social controlled homogeneous societies to the United States.
It's not about ME or YOU, it's simply a bad argument, and not a check in the 'win' column, just as the same type of control NOT working in the former Soviet Union doesn't constitute a win for pro gun arguments.

Part of good debate still requires a good argument, otherwise it's just soundbite material, as you put it.
listen, if you honestly think that the other side has no good arguments you are far to emotionally invested in this to ever get it.

Again, of course we can counter it, just like we can chase the runner, but on this one, he still scored. I get it, you disagree with the data point so much and think it doesnt apply here with such a passion you dont see it that way.

A lot of people argue these things like Religion..."it (the way I see it) is right, just because it is."...people are going to be very quick to dismiss people who think that way and the opposition will point to such people to HARM your side.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon

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Old 12-25-2012, 14:44   #40
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Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
The police defend themselves while they are doing their job. I defend myself while I am living my life.

Again, I'm not looking for trouble but it may come to me. At that moment I need all the same guns the police need.
A swing and a miss. You need the same guns the military need if you are going to be true to the intent of the 2A.
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Old 12-25-2012, 14:49   #41
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I can only speak for myself on this subject.

I thought about handguns and rifles as they apply to me. I believe my use of handguns will be to protect myself and the few family very physically close to me. This is a spur of the moment weapon, that I carry all the time since I don't know when it will be necessary.

Again, for me: I believe a rifle is of use to me "if" I feel I have to protect or help others, someone physically farther from me than handgun distance. This condition of distance means that I would be better off with a rifle to help someone, no matter who they are.

A rifle is a weapon I use for threats against me, my family or strangers at a distance, that I believe gravely need my help. It is useful to me to engage threats at a greater distance, and also to aid others that are engaged/threatened, when I am removed from the immediate vacinity.

By this, I would use the example of the cop being shot at by a BG with a rifle, from behind a tree. A neighbor 90 degrees from the threat with a clear view of the BG, but at roughly 600 feet distance, sees the threat to the cop and retrieves a pistol from his home and shoots the BG stopping the threat to the cop.

But my point is that this is a case where a rifle used by a civilian would have been a better choice, if available. The larger capacity magazine would be a distinct advantage for the rifle shooter, unless of course, he knew how many rounds this event would take beforehand. Unlikely.

I do believe there are some people carrying that really feel they have a responsibility to help others, when it is realistically possible for them. Of course this would be a subset of concealed carriers, just as a subset of the military is actively involved in a shooting/firefight. Not everyone has the will. But some do.

I also believe, from news accounts, that the police will try to help even when it may seem impossible for them. That's the difference between us (cops and civilians). Some serve because they feel they have to help (a calling) and some like us, feel they can help - when possible. I would not hesitate to help a cop under any circumstances, and a stranger when I think I may affect the outcome positively. (not necessarily a positive effect, that is still unknown)

A rifle improves my odds of a deadly situation, at a distance. It improves my ability to help others. I do not believe I am Military, nor police, nor judge and jury. I do believe it allows me to help the good guys better than a handgun. Although the use of a rifle for defense is admittedly rare, it can still happen.

Don't go trying to put words into my mouth about my wanting to be a vigilante or para military. I said exactly what I meant and it was to help others, with qualifications for the circumstances.

And hunting and target shooting, because proficiency is never a bad thing.

(And yes, I have been shot at and returned fire. I will not elaborate)
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Old 12-25-2012, 14:50   #42
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listen, if you honestly think that the other side has no good arguments you are far to emotionally invested in this to ever get it.

Again, of course we can counter it, just like we can chase the runner, but on this one, he still scored. I get it, you disagree with the data point so much and think it doesnt apply here with such a passion you dont see it that way.

A lot of people argue these things like Religion..."it (the way I see it) is right, just because it is."...people are going to be very quick to dismiss people who think that way and the opposition will point to such people to HARM your side.
Cool. You need to quit trying to attach 'passion and emotion' to the argument though, I never said the other side had no argument. I just said you chose a bad example to illustrate the point.
Debate or not, we or 'they' can't expect to score points on bad or distorted infomation...or stuff "we can easily counter."

Gun control, whether here or abroad rarely happens in a vacuum and is never a strict black and white contrast with hard facts. You know that.

There's tons of emotional rhetoric coming from both sides of the debate-the Guns/cars, what other countries do, etc. it doesn't surprise me, given the situation.
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Old 12-25-2012, 14:53   #43
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A swing and a miss. You need the same guns the military need if you are going to be true to the intent of the 2A.
uhh. you do realize that at the time the military has smooth bore muskets while citizens often had the far superior long rifle.

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Old 12-25-2012, 14:59   #44
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Cool. You need to quit trying to attach 'passion and emotion' to the argument though, I never said the other side had no argument. I just said you chose a bad example to illustrate the point.
Debate or not, we or 'they' can't expect to score points on bad or distorted infomation...or stuff "we can easily counter."

Gun control, whether here or abroad rarely happens in a vacuum and is never a strict black and white contrast with hard facts. You know that.
In many first world countries, where guns are strictly controlled or functionally outlawed there is very little gun crime.

The details of that dont change that math. You are arguing against math because you feel (emotion and passion) that such math wouldnt apply here.



Again, it is a touchdown for the other side. The best you can do is say "that is not applicable here"...It may not be, you could be right (I even agree with you) but you cant prove it and no counter argument changes the truth of the math of this issue.

The mistake you are making is confusing the truth of the math, because it is true, with how you think the math extrapolates to our situation. You are basically arguing against results with your hypothesis. Results win.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 12-25-2012, 15:01   #45
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A rifle improves my odds of a deadly situation, at a distance. It improves my ability to help others. I do not believe I am Military, nor police, nor judge and jury. I do believe it allows me to help the good guys better than a handgun. Although the use of a rifle for defense is admittedly rare, it can still happen.

And hunting and target shooting, because proficiency is never a bad thing.
True enough.
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Old 12-25-2012, 15:09   #46
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uhh. you do realize that at the time the military has smooth bore muskets while citizens often had the far superior long rifle.

I also realize that the citizens were the military before 1811.
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Old 12-25-2012, 15:12   #47
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I live in a rural area, and if bad guys decided to invade my home at 2:00AM, My 7 year old daughter and I are "on our own". The weapon I'll choose to grab during that moment of duress will be an AR-15. Why? 'Cause that is what police and military use during their moments of greatest duress... and I have much less tactical support than they do.
Exactly.

And by the way, my son is 7. If you throw enough cases of ammo into the deal, maybe an arrangement can be made in a few years
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Old 12-25-2012, 15:16   #48
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A swing and a miss. You need the same guns the military need if you are going to be true to the intent of the 2A.
I think you fail to understand

I was talking to my mom, the stand in for the average voter leaning anti-gun right about now.

Your desire for me to have a machine gun is appreciated. But at the moment I'm just trying to keep my semi-automatic AR

My state's governor has already tossed around the "confiscation" word.

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Old 12-25-2012, 15:20   #49
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I do however have about 10 of those monster 24-inch plastic cable-ties...

That is why chicks dig you

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Old 12-25-2012, 15:20   #50
Kingarthurhk
Isaiah 53:4-9
 
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
I think you fail to understand

I was talking to my mom, the stand in for the average voter leaning anti-gun right about now.

Your desire for me to have a machine gun is appreciated. But at the moment I'm just trying to keep my semi-automatic AR

My state's governor has already tossed around the "confiscation" word.
Time to move? Somwhere where CCL's are plentiful, and gun ownership is a matter of pride rather than shame. Also, warmer where hunting is plentful. You'll be fine.
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42