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Old 12-31-2012, 14:44   #276
Baba Louie
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Does anyone remember hearing in the not so distant past the questions by some of those who carry, "What kind of ammo/weapon can/should I carry so that if I have to shoot will not cause me problems in court?" Remember that?

Remember the answers? "Carry what your local police carry. They chose [enter object name] based on its effectiveness. Your attorney will argue that the weapon/ammo is the same as police use."

Anyone?
Yeap. Remember it. LFI IIRC, another Mas Ayoob concept making it difficult, or more difficult at least for prosecuting attornies to go down that road of claiming you were a doer of evil deeds using evil weaponry and boolits on the safe streets only they were allowed to protect. (have to check out my old In The Gravest Extreme book as I think thats where I read it. I could be wrong)
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Old 12-31-2012, 15:04   #277
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
I remember it. don't remember who started it.

but that is generally tell folks that are worried about what kind of ammo they should carry.

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Originally Posted by Baba Louie View Post
Yeap. Remember it. LFI IIRC, another Mas Ayoob concept making it difficult, or more difficult at least for prosecuting attornies to go down that road of claiming you were a doer of evil deeds using evil weaponry and boolits on the safe streets only they were allowed to protect. (have to check out my old In The Gravest Extreme book as I think thats where I read it. I could be wrong)
Yes, I believe it was more focused on ammo, and yes, I believe Mas was one source.

Thanks...
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Old 12-31-2012, 15:26   #278
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Does anyone remember hearing in the not so distant past the questions by some of those who carry, "What kind of ammo/weapon can/should I carry so that if I have to shoot will not cause me problems in court?" Remember that?

Remember the answers? "Carry what your local police carry. They chose [enter object name] based on its effectiveness. Your attorney will argue that the weapon/ammo is the same as police use."

Anyone?
I remember
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Old 12-31-2012, 15:28   #279
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One difference in the "sheepdog" analogy, is that often the sheepdog feel as though they have the upper hand.

As an example, how many times do said sheep dogs do a raid on a house with a pistol and a single officer? How often it is with a tactical entry unit? Overwhelming force is one key to being a in this position.
Dragoon, were you including law enforcement in your sheep herder dog/sheepdog analogy?
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This is the demarcation line when the sheepdogs show they are sheepdogs rather than herd dogs.

It's not the sheepdog function to grab a few sheep and flee with them when the predator arrives. It is their function to confront the predator and not allow him among the flock.

The sheepdog confronts the predator and if displays of aggression do not deter the predator then the sheepdog will fight. to the death if need be.

Sheepdogs are chosen for their natural aggression and native enmity towards predators. THAT is what makes them sheepdogs. The sheepdog does not bare his teeth at the predator then retreat leaving the predator to do as he will.

Meli shows the trait of the herd dog baring his teeth then retreating with some of the sheep.

The off duty cop at trolley square with one sub compact gun and no reloads showed the nature of the sheepdog. running to the sound of the gunfire and engaging the shooter.
Doesn't sound like it.
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For the average CCWer, they dont know if they engage how long they will be on their own.
True.
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So to say that there are sheepdogs and herddogs, I think oversimplifies situational actions people take.
You should appreciate the simplified version. It is the black and white version some people demand of law enforcement officers. The totality of circumstances will govern a person's action or inaction.
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Old 12-31-2012, 15:29   #280
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ithaca deerslayer - This article reminded me of this thread. Well, the first page of this thread at least.

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/
Yes, good article. I think Massad Ayoob must have read this thread

Just kidding. I actually have a couple of his books, and respect for his writing.
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Old 12-31-2012, 15:55   #281
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One difference in the "sheepdog" analogy, is that often the sheepdog feel as though they have the upper hand.
Do you think the off duty officer at trolley square armed with his sub compact .45 and no extra mags thought he had the upper hand on the shooter?

Quote:
As an example, how many times do said sheep dogs do a raid on a house with a pistol and a single officer? How often it is with a tactical entry unit? Overwhelming force is one key to being a in this position.
I don't put planned raids in sheepdog terms. Sheep dogs respond to the appearance of a predator endangering the flock. they don't form packs and raid wolves dens. The sheep dogs role is purely defensive until the danger appears and then it takes the offensive.

it seems obvious to me that my analogy is about LONE sheepdogs responding not packs of them.

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For the average CCWer, they dont know if they engage how long they will be on their own.
And the same is true of the lone off duty officer.

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I cannot say what the CCWer did was wrong. He went to engage, but then had doubts. I think if he is having doubts about his ability to hit the target, maybe it is better not to shoot. I wasnt there, I cannot call him a coward.
exactly the point I have made numerous times.

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So to say that there are sheepdogs and herddogs, I think oversimplifies situational actions people take.
I don't agree, what it really boils down to is what is your nature? is it to defend\ attack or to flee? is it to run to where the threat is, or to run away from it?
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Old 12-31-2012, 15:58   #282
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Dragoon, were you including law enforcement in your sheep herder dog/sheepdog analogy?
lone off duty LEO's yes.

DanaT is obviously trying to work in on duty LEO teams engaging in raids into the scenario. But I believe the context of the scenario is pretty clear in pointing to single Sheepdog. not multiple sheepdogs acting in concert.
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Old 12-31-2012, 16:10   #283
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
Do you think the off duty officer at trolley square armed with his sub compact .45 and no extra mags thought he had the upper hand on the shooter?
At a very basic, level yes.



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I don't agree, what it really boils down to is what is your nature? is it to defend\ attack or to flee? is it to run to where the threat is, or to run away from it?
I dont believe this. There is a portion of it that is nature, but there is also a large portion that is training and experience. When people are thrown into these situations they rely on instinct and training.

It is like practicing shooting. If you shoot enough you get "muscle memory" and when shooting, you fall back on this. The training gives confidence that they KNOW they can win therefore they rely less on instinct and more on training.

This is exactly why the US military is good. (and why disciplined military units normally function better than loose groups). It takes them a lot more before they react on instinct. People who have more training and experience normally make better decisions under pressure and fall back on that training and experience.

Yes, nature is part of it, but I dont think it is all of it (I would say less than 50%)
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Old 12-31-2012, 16:29   #284
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At a very basic, level yes.
At the level of self confidence I would agree. But obviously not at the level you suggested. Which entailed numbers and overwhelming force.

The lone individual responding has neither numbers nor overwhelming force. What they do have is self confidence and the willingness to fight.

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I dont believe this. There is a portion of it that is nature, but there is also a large portion that is training and experience. When people are thrown into these situations they rely on instinct and training.
Certainly a factor as I have mentioned in previous threads. training and experience give officers advantages over those without training and experience. And the certain knowledge that they have the authority to act.

Quote:
It is like practicing shooting. If you shoot enough you get "muscle memory" and when shooting, you fall back on this. The training gives confidence that they KNOW they can win therefore they rely less on instinct and more on training.
Yet that training in the mechanical aspects of shooting can be rendered useless if the will to fight is not there. or the willingness to shoot is not present.

Quote:
This is exactly why the US military is good. (and why disciplined military units normally function better than loose groups). It takes them a lot more before they react on instinct. People who have more training and experience normally make better decisions under pressure and fall back on that training and experience.

Yes, nature is part of it, but I dont think it is all of it (I would say less than 50%)
Like the real life sheepdog the nature is the basis of everything else. Without that in inherent aggression in the dogs very nature nothing else matters. You cannot take just any dog and make them a sheep dog just by training.
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Old 12-31-2012, 16:40   #285
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Which explains why, in the military, there are the REMF (and who prefer to remain so) and there are the sharp tips of the spears (and who prefer to be such).
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Old 12-31-2012, 16:59   #286
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post

The lone individual responding has neither numbers nor overwhelming force. What they do have is self confidence and the willingness to fight.
I suspect that many of the officers believe that their training and experience are force multipliers (which I believe they are). Overwhelming force is not always just about actual overwhelming force but often also perceived overwhelming force.
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Old 12-31-2012, 17:07   #287
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I suspect that many of the officers believe that their training and experience are force multipliers (which I believe they are). Overwhelming force is not always just about actual overwhelming force but often also perceived overwhelming force.
I don't know that i would refer to it as overwhelming force. More like self confidence in one's own abilities coupled with natural aggressiveness.

Aggressiveness is a key element here. remember were are not talking about those cornered and forced to fight, but those rather that will respond to the scene and carry the fight to the predator.
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Old 12-31-2012, 17:11   #288
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I got a T-90 tank with a 125 mm. gun for varmints on my short list. I'll settle for a Challanger 2 .
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Old 12-31-2012, 17:16   #289
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Which explains why, in the military, there are the REMF (and who prefer to remain so) and there are the sharp tips of the spears (and who prefer to be such).
Yep and it's no coincidence that those that prefer to be the tip of the spear are the "Alpha males".
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Old 12-31-2012, 17:18   #290
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I got a T-90 tank with a 125 mm. gun for varmints on my short list. I'll settle for a Challanger 2 .
Just about any cop that has been to the same location for the thousandth time for the same reason, wishes they could just pick up the Mic and call in an air strike on the location.

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Old 12-31-2012, 17:26   #291
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Just think about something though.....


If we no longer have it, the police don't need it either because no one will have it to use against them.

Back to revolvers and pump shotguns for everyone!


That is clever.
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Old 12-31-2012, 18:19   #292
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Yep and it's no coincidence that those that prefer to be the tip of the spear are the "Alpha males".
I have met a lot of "alpha males" that are blow hards.
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Old 12-31-2012, 18:21   #293
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 12-31-2012, 18:43   #294
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I have met a lot of "alpha males" that are blow hards.
OK, that's one way to deflect!

BTW, there are many, many more blow hards who are wannabes.
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Old 12-31-2012, 18:47   #295
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I have met a lot of "alpha males" that are blow hards.
While they exist most are faux alpha males not genuine ones.

The real ones are the ones that do, the pretend ones are the ones that talk about it.
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Old 12-31-2012, 18:54   #296
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OK, that's one way to deflect!

BTW, there are many, many more blow hards who are wannabes.
Not a way to deflect. I am sure you have met many. A common name is "bully."

You run into these people in all walks of life (you find them in office settings, you find them in blue collar jobs, etc).

Edit..the ones I am most afraid of is the quiet person who has "that look." They mean business if pushed.
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Last edited by DanaT; 12-31-2012 at 18:56..
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Old 12-31-2012, 19:43   #297
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Not a way to deflect. I am sure you have met many. A common name is "bully."
Yes, I've met many bullies over the years. They're not real alpha males, just blow hards who want others to think they are alphas. And they're easy to deflate.



Quote:
You run into these people in all walks of life (you find them in office settings, you find them in blue collar jobs, etc).
True enough. Not all alpha males end up on Wall Street, as Gordon Gekkos.



Quote:
Edit..the ones I am most afraid of is the quiet person who has "that look." They mean business if pushed.
True alphas have their own inner drive. They don't need outside forces to push them forward. But then again, anybody and everybody can be pushed over the edge by a large enough outside force.
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Last edited by Patchman; 12-31-2012 at 19:45..
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Old 12-31-2012, 20:27   #298
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One difference in the "sheepdog" analogy, is that often the sheepdog feel as though they have the upper hand.

As an example, how many times do said sheep dogs do a raid on a house with a pistol and a single officer? How often it is with a tactical entry unit? Overwhelming force is one key to being a in this position.

....

....
For every time that a SRT/ERT/SWAT team makes a tactical entry there are dozens, probably thousands of officers who go down a dark alley, go to the rear of a store or a residence, enter a residence after hearing screaming or a complaint of someone else hearing screaming, or glass breaking, or what sounded like a gunshot(s) or what was a silent alarm by themself or with one other officer. There are even a few places that will send a (the) lone officer to confirmed domestic disturbance call. Probably tens of thousands of times a day a lone officer approaches a car at night or with tinted windows with no absolute certainty of how many are in the vehicle let alone what potential threat may be present. There are far more instances in which the comparative levels of force are relatively unknown that there are those in which the officers have the overwhelming upper hand.

I think that may be at least a bit what is the "sheepdog" mentality is that is being discussed here.
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Old 12-31-2012, 21:09   #299
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
Just about any cop that has been to the same location for the thousandth time for the same reason, wishes they could just pick up the Mic and call in an air strike on the location.

I have done that. It is satisfying.
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Old 12-31-2012, 21:10   #300
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I have met a lot of "alpha males" that are blow hards.
Then they are not the alpha male.
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