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Old 12-31-2012, 07:44   #251
Dragoon44
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You sound like you're assuming Meli was a coward for not shooting.
That sounds like projection on your part. I have repeatedly stated that I have no criticism of Meli Actions. I have plenty of criticism for others trying to make him out to be a hero that saved the day which is just rubbish.

And no, Meli did not claim there was a person directly behind the shooter. what he said was he saw movement in the back of the "Charlotte" (A store, Charlotte ruse, next to Macy's)

Authorities have confirmed that Meli was seen next to the entrance of Macy's, gun drawn. Feel free to google the mall and look at the layout of the two stores and draw your own conclusion about possible fields of view.

My opinion is simply this, when you are unwilling to shoot, you will always find reasons not to. and afterwards you will always find rationalizations to support your decision.

I have consistently maintained the same stance in regards to CCW'er intervention. If you do not have the confidence to believe that you can effectively intervene then you should not. it's that simple.

Meli clearly did not believe he could effectively intervene so he did the right thing, he retreated.
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Last edited by Dragoon44; 12-31-2012 at 07:46..
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Old 12-31-2012, 08:21   #252
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Originally Posted by Illini_Glock View Post
Since I'm still a newbie and getting my feet wet here, I'll simply say that I don't need what the police have. I've got enough in my home to protect me and my family should that become necessary. Couple that with getting my wife (children are grown and gone) comfortable with shooting and I've equipped my household. IMO, people thinking that they need higher power rifles with high capacity magazines is dangerous at best.
The best gun for your wife to defend your home and your kids might actually be an AR with a 20 or 30 round magazine.

If she came to me for pistol instruction, we might also get around to having her attend a women on target event where she could try a variety of handguns, rifles and shotguns. She would see that an AR has low recoil and is easy to shoot accurately at distances from across a room to 50 yards. Much easier to be accurate than with a pistol or a shotgun. And the AR modularity would allow getting the stock adjusted to fit her.

With that "high power" rifle, and a "high capacity" magazine, she would have a great home defense gun. Pick the right kind of ammo to minimize over penetration (even less than pistol rounds), and she is all set.

Why take that legal right away from her?
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Old 12-31-2012, 08:54   #253
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YOU might not think it is valid but it is a mathematical reality that in many Nations with very strict gun control, you have very very low gun violence. It is anything but a soundbite, it is damned well vetted math.

Of course you can present counters that argument, of course you can disagree with why that is....but you cant dismiss it. It is a powerful argument for the antis side.

You have to accept that. Again, you can not dismiss it. This is a touchdown for the other team. You dont have to like it. It may sting. You may think it is unfair, but it happened. You have to deal with it and move on. You may still win the game but this moment is theirs.

To be a total ass about this, one of the problem with most any issue is most of the people involved dont understand how to argue. They sure know how they feel but they simply have not developed the tools to understand the current state of both sides of the issue.
Your argument of lower rates of gun violence in other countries is not a good argument at all. Those countries have had historically low rates of gun violence. However, the disarmament of those countries did lead to a very sharp rise in crime.
So the mathematics don't really mean anything per your example. And as far as you being a San Antonio police officer that doesn't issue rifles, who cares ? The fact is that rifles are being issued to police officers or being allowed to be purchased by officers for duty use. You are issued body armor and handcuffs. Who cares ? The general public doesn't have the arrest powers that you do. And it is a rare thing that the police get to do anything about crime besides writing a report about it.
And if any police officers really know ANYTHING about the Second Amendment they would know that the precursor to it was English law that gives the rights of bearing arms AND self protection. Just because you don't know it, doesn't make me wrong. I will supply a link to the historical documents from the James Madison Library (you know, the guy that wrote the constitution AND the Bill of Rights).
http://www.madisonbrigade.com/library_bor.htm http://www.madisonbrigade.com/library_bor.htm
And in the Heller v DC decision, our own Supreme Court took that same precursor English Law (rights) to defend their opinion that it is a guarantee of self protection and BECAUSE of an earlier SC ruling that the police DO NOT have a duty to protect you, Joe Blow Private Citizen.

This is in no way a cop bashing. I was a LEO. So it's time to dismount your disproportionately higher horse.
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Last edited by corpdriller; 12-31-2012 at 09:08..
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Old 12-31-2012, 09:11   #254
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Originally Posted by HexHead View Post
In the news report I saw, he said there was a person behind the shooter from his perspective, and that he held his fire so he wouldn't hit the innocent if he missed. Big difference.
By not shooting, and then getting out of there, Meli lost his advantage (he had his gun on target and the gunman's gun was jammed). At that point in time, Meli could have taken a split second more to aim. Or charge the gunman and close the distance to ensure a hit.

By getting out of there Meli also lost sight of the gunman, for 9-1-1 purposes. Now the responding cops are blind as to what's happening, in real time, inside that mall. (Maybe others inside the mall were on the phone with 9-1-1, IDK).

And by getting out of there, Meli didn't solve the gunman problem. In fact, he allowed the gunman to clear his gun. If you think about it, this put whoever was left in that mall back in danger.
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Old 12-31-2012, 09:21   #255
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I look to what Ayoob just wrote in his Backwoodshome blog... http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/

Most people feel comfortable following the Police lead. If Coppers need it, so do we. (in way of firearms, not so much radios, flashing lights, uniforms, accoutrements, etc)

Rabbi, don't make us do the ... MATH!
We're talking "feelings" here man. Feelings. Gut check call. The old "Us vs. Them" game and we want "Us" to all be on the same side as law abiders wearing white hats, hating like hell to become one of "them" black hatters by forced decree.

Of course, "When some guns are outlawed, I'll probably become an outlaw"

*sigh*

and that'd suck.
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Old 12-31-2012, 09:30   #256
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And by getting out of there, Meli didn't solve the gunman problem. In fact, he allowed the gunman to clear his gun. If you think about it, this put whoever was left in that mall back in danger.
But..but....but.....no one else got shot! and the very next bullet fired after he cleared the jam was the one he used to kill himself!!! (Not true, but the desperately seeking a hero crowd will swallow any B.S. that supports their agenda)

In another thread on this I asked several who claimed Meli was the Hero that stopped the carnage that if after Meli retreated and the shooter cleared his jam he had gone on to kill more people if they would still claim he was a hero. For some reason none of the would answer the question.

Claiming that the shooter killed himself because Meli pointed a gun at him is absurd. especially since that is precisely the typical outcome of mass shootings. They kill themselves more often than not once their rampage is over.
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:46   #257
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Originally Posted by corpdriller View Post
Your argument of lower rates of gun violence in other countries is not a good argument at all. Those countries have had historically low rates of gun violence. However, the disarmament of those countries did lead to a very sharp rise in crime.
So the mathematics don't really mean anything per your example. And as far as you being a San Antonio police officer that doesn't issue rifles, who cares ? The fact is that rifles are being issued to police officers or being allowed to be purchased by officers for duty use. You are issued body armor and handcuffs. Who cares ? The general public doesn't have the arrest powers that you do. And it is a rare thing that the police get to do anything about crime besides writing a report about it.
And if any police officers really know ANYTHING about the Second Amendment they would know that the precursor to it was English law that gives the rights of bearing arms AND self protection. Just because you don't know it, doesn't make me wrong. I will supply a link to the historical documents from the James Madison Library (you know, the guy that wrote the constitution AND the Bill of Rights).
http://www.madisonbrigade.com/library_bor.htm http://www.madisonbrigade.com/library_bor.htm
And in the Heller v DC decision, our own Supreme Court took that same precursor English Law (rights) to defend their opinion that it is a guarantee of self protection and BECAUSE of an earlier SC ruling that the police DO NOT have a duty to protect you, Joe Blow Private Citizen.

This is in no way a cop bashing. I was a LEO. So it's time to dismount your disproportionately higher horse.
I take it you were not an investigator. You certainly didnt read what I wrote because you only got out of it what you thought I was saying.

Never said I was SAPD (I am not)

Repeatedly made it understood I was playing devils advocate.

You need to check your passions. You are not a very good advocate for our side. You would cause us more harm if you spoke up. Which was pretty much my entire point. Some people dont know how to argue or interpret what they read. Their feelings get in the way. Having an opinion doesnt make you the right person to take up the cause in a public way.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

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Old 12-31-2012, 10:51   #258
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
That sounds like projection on your part. I have repeatedly stated that I have no criticism of Meli Actions. I have plenty of criticism for others trying to make him out to be a hero that saved the day which is just rubbish.
You have been very consistent in your acceptance of his actions for what they are, his personal choice, and acceptable behavior, to take the opportunity to withdraw himself and others to safety.

There is a large group of carriers to whom he is a hero. He took his friends out of harms way. He thought of them first. That was his mindset.

Did he actually stop the killer? No.

Did he deter the killer? Only the killer could tell us, and he's not able to do that.

I, too, do not fault Meli's decision. I know from very personal experiences that even well trained people do everything they can to avoid getting shot at, sometimes even if that choice might endanger others.

It's been said here and elsewhere, most people are not wired to run to the threat. That is correct and the absolute best choice for them.
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:56   #259
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I take it you were not an investigator. You certainly didnt read what I wrote because you only got out of it what you thought I was saying.

Never said I was SAPD (I am not)

Repeatedly made it understood I was playing devils advocate.

You need to check your passions. You are not a very good advocate for our side. You would cause us more harm if you spoke up. Which was pretty much my entire point. Some people dont know how to argue or interpret what they read. Their feelings get in the way. Having an opinion doesnt make you the right person to take up the cause in a public way.
WE don't need YOU playing advocate for anyone.
And I addressed all the points in your argument.
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:04   #260
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Originally Posted by corpdriller View Post
WE don't need YOU playing advocate for anyone.
And I addressed all the points in your argument.
Um, when you prepare for an debate, someone has to put the other sides points on the table...well, if you want to do better in the debate anyways.

It sounds like you dont care about hearing anything that doesnt fit your view and now you are dismissing your failure to actually read something and understand what was said.

That is fine but once again, it really proves the point that some people will harm our side just because they want to say something as well. Having a passion for a cause doesnt make someone, by itself, the right person to speak up for that cause.

listen, you made a mistake. A real, factual, provable mistake. We all do but now we are also seeing something about your character.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:09   #261
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post

Did he deter the killer? Only the killer could tell us, and he's not able to do that.
The gunman's motivation behind why he killed himself is something I've been thinking about.

Is it because he saw Meli point a gun at him and he got... scared? Doesn't quite ring correct.

Maybe his original plan was always to create mayham and then kill himself. And after killing two people and shooting up the mall and watching thousands flee in panic, etc..., he felt he had achieved plan A and now to plan B. IDK.

Maybe he saw a scared face or two in the crowd that gave him pangs of guilty conscience or whatever and made him realized what he's doing is BAD. Again, IDK.

As noted, we'll never know why.
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:10   #262
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Um, when you prepare for an debate, someone has to put the other sides points on the table...well, if you want to do better in the debate anyways.

It sounds like you dont care about hearing anything that doesnt fit your view and now you are dismissing your failure to actually read something and understand what was said.

That is fine but once again, it really proves the point that some people will harm our side just because they want to say something as well. Having a passion for a cause doesnt make someone, by itself, the right person to speak up for that cause.

listen, you made a mistake. A real, factual, provable mistake. We all do but now we are also seeing something about your character.
Other than saying you worked at SAPD, disprove anything that I said. I actually gave proof of what I said.
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:15   #263
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Originally Posted by corpdriller View Post
Other than saying you worked at SAPD, disprove anything that I said. I actually gave proof of what I said.
You took a swipe at me as though I was actually the problem and "against" your beleifs.

I was the messanger....hell not even that, I am the reasercher for our side. It we dont understand what they are doing and how people feel about that, we will fail.

You have tunnle vision on this, that is what caused the problem. And you still do. To be blunt, your aim sucks.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:32   #264
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There is a large group of carriers to whom he is a hero. He took his friends out of harms way. He thought of them first. That was his mindset.
If they want to paint him as the hero of his friends I won't quarrel with them. But most I have seen try to paint him as the hero of the incident. claiming that by pointing his gun at the shooter it caused the shooter to kill himself.

Quote:
Did he deter the killer? Only the killer could tell us, and he's not able to do that.
We may not know precisely what was in his mind but his actions can tell us something. Contrary to the claims of those that want to make Meli the Hero the shooter did NOT RUNAWAY and shoot himself.

We have statements from the authorities who watched the security cams and eyewitnesses present that the shooter cleared the jam, fired more shots as he casually walked down one wing of the mall to the stairwell access.

Nothing in his actions indicates he was in anyway panicked by Meli (If he even actually saw him, which is not even certain.)

Quote:
It's been said here and elsewhere, most people are not wired to run to the threat. That is correct and the absolute best choice for them.
This is the demarcation line when the sheepdogs show they are sheepdogs rather than herd dogs.

It's not the sheepdog function to grab a few sheep and flee with them when the predator arrives. It is their function to confront the predator and not allow him among the flock.

The sheepdog confronts the predator and if displays of aggression do not deter the predator then the sheepdog will fight. to the death if need be.

Sheepdogs are chosen for their natural aggression and native enmity towards predators. THAT is what makes them sheepdogs. The sheepdog does not bare his teeth at the predator then retreat leaving the predator to do as he will.

Meli shows the trait of the herd dog baring his teeth then retreating with some of the sheep.

The off duty cop at trolley square with one sub compact gun and no reloads showed the nature of the sheepdog. running to the sound of the gunfire and engaging the shooter.
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:47   #265
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The gunman's motivation behind why he killed himself is something I've been thinking about.
Honestly I do not see any mystery here. suicide is one the most common outcomes of spree killers if they are not stopped during their attack.

I also do not think there is a mystery as to why there were not more victims. His gun jammed and people got the hell out of there or went into hiding. The santa who heard the same shots meli did hit the floor. he said that during the lull when he thought the shooter was reloading he looked up and saw that the place was a ghost town. Then he himself fled.

People fled the mall or were herded by store employees into back rooms and security gates on the stores were dropped just as the store employees had been trained to do.

By the time the shooter cleaned his jam there were no more easy targets.

We do know that when he entered the stairwell access door he ran into a store employee. Who stated that Roberts lifted the rifle as if to shoot and the Employee said, "No, you don't want to do that." And Roberts Stopped, then turned away and went down the stairwell.

THAT is the luckiest guy at the mall that day
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:47   #266
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Okay, you two, knock off the pissing contest now! NO more!!

You are adding absolutely ZERO to the thread.



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Originally Posted by corpdriller View Post
Other than saying you worked at SAPD, disprove anything that I said. I actually gave proof of what I said.
Quote:
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You took a swipe at me as though I was actually the problem and "against" your beleifs.

I was the messanger....hell not even that, I am the reasercher for our side. It we dont understand what they are doing and how people feel about that, we will fail.

You have tunnle vision on this, that is what caused the problem. And you still do. To be blunt, your aim sucks.
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:48   #267
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...when you prepare for an debate, someone has to put the other sides points on the table...
It can be argued that a good debater should be able to present and defend both the pro and the con side of the issue at hand and back each side with well researched facts and figures as well as reason to the emotion when needed. So sayeth my old H.S. debate teacher back in the day anyway.

But if you're the President you get to Lecture and skip any debate. Maybe as it should be... maybe not.

Given: If the police need it, I need it. What? Why? When? History (background of... say Policing, Militia, RKBAs then v. now)? Etc. Facts, figures, then emotions. Let the jury then decide. And please spare the ad hom attacks (unless you're a politician of course)

ithaca, quite a thread sir. A few interesting subplots as well.
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Old 12-31-2012, 11:51   #268
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You took a swipe at me as though I was actually the problem and "against" your beleifs.

I was the messanger....hell not even that, I am the reasercher for our side. It we dont understand what they are doing and how people feel about that, we will fail.

You have tunnle vision on this, that is what caused the problem. And you still do. To be blunt, your aim sucks.
What you say may be partially true in that you were the adversary. However I responded to your statement with provable facts as though you were the adversary.
And 2 things in my defense;1. I am reading this on my 3.5 inch phone screen, so I am not scrolling thru 10+ pages so didn't know of your self appointed advocacy.
2. There seems to more than a few police on this board that ride a high moral horse that are obviously better than most.
So if that's not you, well than I apologize for saying so.
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:03   #269
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It can be argued that a good debater should be able to present and defend both the pro and the con side of the issue at hand and back each side with well researched facts and figures as well as reason to the emotion when needed. So sayeth my old H.S. debate teacher back in the day anyway.
.
this is so very true. That is why you are assigned a side when you are learning to debate.

One of the places where people fail is they debate a subject in a preaching to the chior way. They tend to be around people who agree with them, thus they are not debating at all, they are venting and people around them agree. What that tends to do is give people a very false sense to the weight of their opinions.

Go back and read a thread on a gun forum about a Presidential debate. It is a perfect example of this problem. People cant get past the idea that everthing they like is obviously right and everything they dont like is obviously wrong. Of course, the results of the last election show the flaw in that....yet people then must lable the other side as stupid.

If you want to win a debate, and I dont mean in some academic sense, I mean to gain something, you have to realize, you can be right (or think you are right) or you can win. Wining gets you what you want. The other side of that is you have to realize the other side feels just like you, just against you. So you have to speak to the middle. Few people know how to do that.

Here is the point. Lets look how this plays out to people who dont care or are in the middle. Imagin someone putting this on the table in a debate.


__________
The U.S. has over 12000 gun deaths last year.

Japan had less than 20.

Why? Japan has ultra high restrictions on guns.

__________

Now, you have a choice here, you can start to argue details. That will backfire on most people. Look at how people in this thread have handles it, they are speaking to gun people. They are being right but in doing so are losing. Some people even go so far as to attack the Japanes themselves (racist culture, blah blah...)

The truth is, it is a touchdown no matter how you look at it. You have to accept that. You cant really even fight it and in most cases shouldnt. It is a stunning statistic and no matter what answer you have for it, the middle will see it that way. When the other team has a winning play, you dont want to dwell on it. You want to move the hell on.

How do you fight it? You have to score your own touchdowns. You cant take away the other sides points, all you can do is score your own.

You can be right (appeal to your base) which you already have on your side or you can win. Life is a game, learn the rules and play to win.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon

Last edited by Rabbi; 12-31-2012 at 12:06..
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:42   #270
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
I also do not think there is a mystery as to why there were not more victims. His gun jammed and people got the hell out of there or went into hiding. The santa who heard the same shots meli did... looked up and saw that the place was a ghost town.

By the time the shooter cleaned his jam there were no more easy targets.
Yeah, probably very true. I'm sure everyone was scrambling ASAP to get out of the mall. Which makes you realize that the movement/bystander Meli cited for not shooting was, probably, in a fraction of a second, no longer part of the backstop.


Quote:
We do know that when he entered the stairwell access door he ran into a store employee. Who stated that Roberts lifted the rifle as if to shoot and the Employee said, "No, you don't want to do that." And Roberts Stopped, then turned away and went down the stairwell.

THAT is the luckiest guy at the mall that day
This is after Meli's encounter? I didn't know about this employee's account. Sounds like pangs of conscience.
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Old 12-31-2012, 12:57   #271
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This is after Meli's encounter? I didn't know about this employee's account. Sounds like pangs of conscience.
Yes, this is just prior to him shooting himself in the stairwell.
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Old 12-31-2012, 13:00   #272
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Does anyone remember hearing in the not so distant past the questions by some of those who carry, "What kind of ammo/weapon can/should I carry so that if I have to shoot will not cause me problems in court?" Remember that?

Remember the answers? "Carry what your local police carry. They chose [enter object name] based on its effectiveness. Your attorney will argue that the weapon/ammo is the same as police use."

Anyone?
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Old 12-31-2012, 13:14   #273
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ithaca deerslayer - This article reminded me of this thread. Well, the first page of this thread at least.

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/
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Old 12-31-2012, 13:59   #274
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Does anyone remember hearing in the not so distant past the questions by some of those who carry, "What kind of ammo/weapon can/should I carry so that if I have to shoot will not cause me problems in court?" Remember that?

Remember the answers? "Carry what your local police carry. They chose [enter object name] based on its effectiveness. Your attorney will argue that the weapon/ammo is the same as police use."

Anyone?
I remember it. don't remember who started it.

but that is generally tell folks that are worried about what kind of ammo they should carry.
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Old 12-31-2012, 14:43   #275
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One difference in the "sheepdog" analogy, is that often the sheepdog feel as though they have the upper hand.

As an example, how many times do said sheep dogs do a raid on a house with a pistol and a single officer? How often it is with a tactical entry unit? Overwhelming force is one key to being a in this position.

For the average CCWer, they dont know if they engage how long they will be on their own.

I cannot say what the CCWer did was wrong. He went to engage, but then had doubts. I think if he is having doubts about his ability to hit the target, maybe it is better not to shoot. I wasnt there, I cannot call him a coward.

If you remember, Neil Gardner exchanged fire with an active shooter, missed and did not continue to pursue the murderers.

So to say that there are sheepdogs and herddogs, I think oversimplifies situational actions people take.
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