GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-30-2012, 20:37   #226
Dragoon44
Lifetime Membership
Unfair Facist
 
Dragoon44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 24,108
Quote:
The simple answer, I dont need to explain why I "need" something.
Rather than "something". I would say I have no need to justify exercising a right.
__________________
“Right is still right, even if nobody is doing it. And wrong is still wrong, even if everybody is doing it.”—Texas Ranger saying.
Dragoon44 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 20:46   #227
Rabbi
Lifetime Membership
The Bombdiggity
 
Rabbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San AntonioTexas
Posts: 29,845


Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
I never claimed to need plutonium in my corn flakes.
You never said you wanted red high heels for a night out on the town either but either way, according to your logic, you are wide open to the possibility in case the want arrises.
__________________
In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
Rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 20:48   #228
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,821
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
You never said you wanted red high heels for a night out on the town either but either way, according to your logic, you are wide open to the possibility in case the want arrises.
Why would I not be open to it? IF I feel the need for red high heels, I dont need to explain to anyone why I need them.
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 20:50   #229
Rabbi
Lifetime Membership
The Bombdiggity
 
Rabbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San AntonioTexas
Posts: 29,845


Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
Why would I not be open to it? IF I feel the need for red high heels, I dont need to explain to anyone why I need them.
Of course, or polonium in your corn flakes.
__________________
In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
Rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 21:32   #230
dougader
Senior Member
 
dougader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: OryGun
Posts: 3,314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
I watched Meli's video several times. He never stated the gunman fled after seeing him point a gun at him. the one that fled was Meli. ( He by his own account retreated into a store.) There are several statements of eyewitnesses that the gunmen slowly walked away from the food court area to where he entered the stairway access area.



The ending was pure luck not due to the (IN)action of the CCW holder.

And as I have stated before, I am not criticizing Meli, I think he did what most would do when they found they could not bring themselves to pull the trigger.
I
What I have issue with is the B.S. propaganda trying to make him a hero and claim his actions saved the day.
Well, I hardly think The Oregonian would purposely make out any gun owner to be a hero.
Quote:
Do you think that if the shooter had been firing on Meli that Meli would have held his fire and died heroically instead of returning fire?
I don't pretend to know what he would have done in any speculated scenario.

Would you have him announce himself like the man at the Tacoma, WA mall and take four hits from an AK? I guess that guy would be a hero simply because he got shot according to your way of thinking.
__________________
Doug

"In St. Louis, armed Homeland Security agents monitored Tea Party members protesting the IRS. Good idea. When people think their government is out to get them, the best response is to send the government out to get them." -Fred Thompson

Last edited by dougader; 12-30-2012 at 21:37..
dougader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 21:37   #231
dougader
Senior Member
 
dougader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: OryGun
Posts: 3,314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
Rather than "something". I would say I have no need to justify exercising a right.
Very well said.
__________________
Doug

"In St. Louis, armed Homeland Security agents monitored Tea Party members protesting the IRS. Good idea. When people think their government is out to get them, the best response is to send the government out to get them." -Fred Thompson
dougader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 21:38   #232
ithaca_deerslayer
Senior Member
 
ithaca_deerslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Posts: 18,590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aux Bear View Post
Did it ever occur to you that we have to have them because YOU have them! Duh! We have SOG. 20 officers with semi-auto assult rifles in the largest county in Illinois. We, the regular guys, qualify with Glock 22s or 23s and the good old 870. They are available to respond, within an hour, anywhere in the county. So what is it you need?
I need whatever guns your brightest and best deem most effective for defending against armed bad guys
ithaca_deerslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 21:53   #233
Peace Warrior
CLM Number 221
Am Yisrael Chai
 
Peace Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: With the other 7,999,999
Posts: 26,172
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougader View Post
You posted it twice; maybe you thought it was significant in some way, but I just don't see it. So what exactly does an astronaut have to do with the 2nd amendment?

I know officers that have been on the job for over 20 years and have never drawn their sidearm. Police have back up. I have no back-up, because I am the back-up. If anything, I have a greater need than the basic patrol officer.

In my 52 years I have had to draw my weapon twice. Once at a 7-11 and once at my home in North Portland. My fishing buddy and I didn't draw our pistols when we were approached by two thugs looking to roll us for some quick cash up past Estacada on the Clackamas river; all it took was to put a hand on the grip of the gun and they skipped away like little girls.

You can't disarm the populace then run away when it looks bad (e.g., LA Riots). And then, to add insult to injury, when a citizen tries to get recompense for the inaction of the police (who apparently need semi-auto and select-fire weapons) you get nothing. You might as well put them in a room and turn the thugs loose on them.

And yes, the people do need modern weapons to protect their rights to be secure in society and at home. The 2nd Amendment is important and you coming here to knock it down is what I call counterfeit and ignorant.
QFT!

I remember seeing a shop owner standing on the roof of his business with one of these wicked, mean, and nasty bad "assault rifles" during the riots over the rodney king verdict. He shot no one, and yet his business was not looted or burned.

He was just lucky huh?
__________________
“After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it.” - William S. Burroughs
"Nothing we're gonna do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that [our gun ban legislation] will bring gun deaths down..." - VPOTUS Joe Biden
"Love 'Em All!!! Let Jehovah sort 'em out." - The Holy Bible
"You gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?" - Josey Wales

Last edited by Peace Warrior; 12-30-2012 at 21:59..
Peace Warrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 21:58   #234
Peace Warrior
CLM Number 221
Am Yisrael Chai
 
Peace Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: With the other 7,999,999
Posts: 26,172
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
Not the same thing.
I'm not paid with tax money to have the capability and qualifications to deal with any dire situation which may come up anywhere within a given jurisdiction.

That doesn't negate or minimize my need to have the means and gear to protect myself.

I'll be the judge of what are the probabilities that I'll need the final 'nth degree' of gear for that purpose.
How dare you introduce the concept and ideologies of American Liberty into an emotionally charged and defacto socialist political argument.


Liberals everywhere think you're nuts.
__________________
“After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it.” - William S. Burroughs
"Nothing we're gonna do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that [our gun ban legislation] will bring gun deaths down..." - VPOTUS Joe Biden
"Love 'Em All!!! Let Jehovah sort 'em out." - The Holy Bible
"You gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?" - Josey Wales
Peace Warrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 23:20   #235
RJ's Guns
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
AND that has jack all to do with the 2A. The 2A was to make the citizenry a military. There was no standing army until the War of 1811, and that was a controversial move. So, once again, the OP tititle should be, "If the Miltiary Has it, I need it."


I disagree, your interpretation does not comport with the Supreme Court’s ruling in Heller.

In Heller, the U.S. Supreme Court stated that"[t]he adjective 'well-regulated' implies nothing more than the imposition of proper discipline and training."

Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the majority in Heller, stated;

Nowhere else in the Constitution does a “right”attributed to “the people” refer to anything other than an individual right. What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention “the people,” the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset. This contrasts markedly with the phrase“the militia” in the prefatory clause. As we will describe below, the “militia”in colonial America consisted of a subset of “the people”— those who were male, able bodied, and within a certain age range. Reading the Second Amendment as protecting only the right to “keep and bear Arms” in an organized militia therefore fits poorly with the operative clause’s description of the holder of that right as “the people.”

Furthermore, ithaca_deerslayer’s theme is a good one, i.e. "Why do the police need them?" To defend themselves from bad guys, .... "Well, that's the same reason I need them." Moreover, I applaud his reasoning.

RJ
RJ's Guns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 23:51   #236
RJ's Guns
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 757
[QUOTE=Rabbi;19779286]

For a pretty overwhelming example of this when it comes to the lefts arguments about gun control, it is very hard to overcome the math of (lack) gun violence in places like Japan. It is a check in the "win" column for the anti-gun crowd.

QUOTE]

Well, then let us look at England and Australia

Regarding " the argument most often made by the Left quoting the success of oppressive gun laws in countries like Australia and England? A recent opinion piece in the Wall Street Journal by Joyce Lee Malcolm shows that argument to be hollow: “After a school massacre, the U.K. banned handguns in 1998. A decade later, handgun crime has doubled.”

Malcom’s article details what happened after Australia banned many guns following a 1996 mass murder of 35 people by a madman with assault rifles. The country tightened registration laws, banned assault rifles, pump-action shotguns, and also forced a buy back of more than 600,000 guns. What effect did this have on crime?
“A 2003 study published by the Brookings Institution, found homicides “continued a modest decline” since 1997. They concluded that the impact of the National Firearms Agreement was “relatively small,” with the daily rate of firearms homicides declining 3.2%.”
During the same period in America, deaths attributed to firearms dropped by nearly ten times the decline seen in Australia. Restricting or confiscating handguns seems to have had almost no effect on homicides in Australia and the stats also show that the law had no real effect on suicides.

“Suicides with firearms went down but suicides by other means went up,” Malcom notes.
And what about the oft-cited British gun laws? Have they done the job?

Restrictive gun laws have been around for almost 100 years in England, and Malcolm reports that getting a permit requires proving to police that you have a “good reason” for needing a gun. Self defense is not considered to be a good reason in England. Following a 1987 shooting in the British town of Hungerford, the Brits enacted stricter controls. And in 1998, a near-total ban on gun ownership followed another mass shooting. Were these moves a success?
Within a decade of the handgun ban and the confiscation of handguns from registered owners, crime with handguns had doubled according to British government crime reports. Gun crime, not a serious problem in the past, now is. Armed street gangs have some British police carrying guns for the first time.

There is little doubt that the Senate will soon put forth new legislation regarding gun ownership, especially as it relates to so-called assault weapons. However, those making the argument that banning guns has worked in places like Australia and England might be advised to check the statistics or risk looking foolish if they encounter someone armed with the facts."

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/will-banning-guns-stop-homicides-stats-from-england-and-australia-show/

RJ
RJ's Guns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 00:14   #237
RJ's Guns
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
It isnt about having or not having body armor. It is about making the argument "The police have those guns, so should I"
.


Regarding; “It is about making the argument ‘The police have those guns, so should I’

That is a red herring and people have been falling into your trap, right and left. ithaca_deerslayer was responding to the question; “Why do you need one of these so-called assault weapons anyway?!" His response was valid; “To defend (against) bad guys.”

You, Rabbi, are the one that steered him toward your agenda, “about making the argument "The police have those guns, so should I" and ithaca_deerslayer and others fell into your trap.

I have reason to suspect that you are way too bright and cleaver for you to have not done so consciously and purposefully. Moreover, although you purpose to educate may have been commendable, I think that you capitalized on their naiveté.

RJ



Last edited by RJ's Guns; 12-31-2012 at 00:31..
RJ's Guns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 00:31   #238
Peace Warrior
CLM Number 221
Am Yisrael Chai
 
Peace Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: With the other 7,999,999
Posts: 26,172
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBO View Post
The Police need hepatitis B inoculation shots, do you?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Copatalk 2
fnfalman would say yes.
__________________
“After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it.” - William S. Burroughs
"Nothing we're gonna do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that [our gun ban legislation] will bring gun deaths down..." - VPOTUS Joe Biden
"Love 'Em All!!! Let Jehovah sort 'em out." - The Holy Bible
"You gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?" - Josey Wales
Peace Warrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 00:35   #239
Peace Warrior
CLM Number 221
Am Yisrael Chai
 
Peace Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: With the other 7,999,999
Posts: 26,172
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by brisk21 View Post
Why the hell do we have to justify "needs" when it comes to firearms? That right there is the question. When someone asks me why I need something like an ar-15, I wonder, Who the ****** are you to ask me that?"
Herein lies the crux of the matter, which some on both sides seem to be arguing past each other while saying the same thing. Makes for fun reading though.

Carry on y'all.
__________________
“After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it.” - William S. Burroughs
"Nothing we're gonna do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that [our gun ban legislation] will bring gun deaths down..." - VPOTUS Joe Biden
"Love 'Em All!!! Let Jehovah sort 'em out." - The Holy Bible
"You gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?" - Josey Wales
Peace Warrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 03:41   #240
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Good for them. They're all heros in my book.

Enhanced mindset? That's the thing. You don't need enhanced. You just need proper.
When I said enhanced, it was meaning "to develop".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
Yeah when it's there ass on the line they do pretty well. But that is not what we are talking about. we are talking about running to the sound of the gunfire rather than away from it.
And this validates the OPs argument concisely. This is how this topic began - why he needs that evil looking long gun. It is his ass on the line, and the odds (for him, as I know where he lives) of having a police officer respond in a manner which can affect the outcome of that line-ass dance...those odds can be very slim.

When his ass is directly on the line, or his immediate family's ass is on the line, mindset or training does not really matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Hence the bright line demarkation between those who chose to serve their communities and this country, with those who don't.

The Yang to balance the Ying.
And that is fine. But his thread was never about what you (the police do). If you (speaking broadly) are incapable of having this discussion from his perspective, you will never get the point.

And yes, balance is needed. If the general populace have a means of deadly force, then the need for the police is equally as great, and equally as critical, because history and statistics show us humans do a very poor job of keeping arms away from "bad guys", and we still have no reliable way of in advance telling which "good guys" (none LE or LE) are going to snap into the lunatic fringe of badness.

I need a long gun for the same reason why Ithaca_Deerslayer needs one.
  • Because I know long gun has a more effective man-stopping rate than a handgun.
  • Because I know when my sphincter clenches up (or loosens) from the sound of glass breaking in, the long gun I have chosen (Red Ryder )for home defense is far simpler to operate and accurately point than any of the handguns I own,
  • That in my state, I am afforded more capacity of ammunition that I am allowed in a handgun, in the event my idea of my skills don't meet the reality of where my shooting skills are.
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 03:43   #241
NEOH212
Diesel Girl
 
NEOH212's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North East Ohio
Posts: 8,801
Just think about something though.....


If we no longer have it, the police don't need it either because no one will have it to use against them.

Back to revolvers and pump shotguns for everyone!

__________________
When we do hit it we hit it out of the park and send it over to China as quickly as possible to cheapen it and sell it.
NEOH212 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 03:46   #242
NEOH212
Diesel Girl
 
NEOH212's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North East Ohio
Posts: 8,801
The fact that the criminals will still have all the banned stuff..........



Well, just don't worry about that. Gun control works.


__________________
When we do hit it we hit it out of the park and send it over to China as quickly as possible to cheapen it and sell it.
NEOH212 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 06:15   #243
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 42,549
Blog Entries: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
Just think about something though.....


If we no longer have it, the police don't need it either because no one will have it to use against them.

Back to revolvers and pump shotguns for everyone!

Interesting...
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 06:20   #244
Illini_Glock
USAF Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 181
Since I'm still a newbie and getting my feet wet here, I'll simply say that I don't need what the police have. I've got enough in my home to protect me and my family should that become necessary. Couple that with getting my wife (children are grown and gone) comfortable with shooting and I've equipped my household. IMO, people thinking that they need higher power rifles with high capacity magazines is dangerous at best.
Illini_Glock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 06:29   #245
HexHead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by Illini_Glock View Post
Since I'm still a newbie and getting my feet wet here, I'll simply say that I don't need what the police have. I've got enough in my home to protect me and my family should that become necessary. Couple that with getting my wife (children are grown and gone) comfortable with shooting and I've equipped my household. IMO, people thinking that they need higher power rifles with high capacity magazines is dangerous at best.
Why do you think we have the 2nd amendment?
HexHead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 06:42   #246
Illini_Glock
USAF Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by HexHead View Post
Why do you think we have the 2nd amendment?
I'm a gun owner, I believe in the 2nd amendment. I don't believe in owning an armory.
Illini_Glock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 06:55   #247
HexHead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by Illini_Glock View Post
I'm a gun owner, I believe in the 2nd amendment. I don't believe in owning an armory.
You evaded the question. I'm glad you believe in it, but there are people that believe it gives us the right to hunt. What does it mean to you?
HexHead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 07:07   #248
Illini_Glock
USAF Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 181
Have a good day Hex.

Last edited by Illini_Glock; 12-31-2012 at 07:14.. Reason: Nothing further to add.
Illini_Glock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 07:10   #249
Dragoon44
Lifetime Membership
Unfair Facist
 
Dragoon44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 24,108
Quote:
Would you have him announce himself like the man at the Tacoma, WA mall and take four hits from an AK? I guess that guy would be a hero simply because he got shot according to your way of thinking.
While Meli and the Tacoma CCW'er share the common trait of being unwilling to shoot when they should. Meli showed better tactical sense in that the first thing he did was move to cover.

At the point in time Meli put his sights on the shooter the guys gun was jammed so he was hardly at risk of being shot. In Short, Meli had (for the moment) the upper hand.

When Meli realized he (Meli) would not shoot he did the right thing and retreated.
__________________
“Right is still right, even if nobody is doing it. And wrong is still wrong, even if everybody is doing it.”—Texas Ranger saying.
Dragoon44 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 07:15   #250
HexHead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
While Meli and the Tacoma CCW'er share the common trait of being unwilling to shoot when they should. Meli showed better tactical sense in that the first thing he did was move to cover.

At the point in time Meli put his sights on the shooter the guys gun was jammed so he was hardly at risk of being shot. In Short, Meli had (for the moment) the upper hand.

When Meli realized he (Meli) would not shoot he did the right thing and retreated.
You sound like you're assuming Meli was a coward for not shooting. In the news report I saw, he said there was a person behind the shooter from his perspective, and that he held his fire so he wouldn't hit the innocent if he missed. Big difference.
HexHead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 13:30.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,296
359 Members
937 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42