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Old 10-07-2014, 09:15   #1
cavintry9mm
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Training

I am currently a firearms instructor for Battle Drill 6 in Nashville Tennessee and would like to build a new course for the avergae shotgun user. I'm curious what sort of topics ya'll would be interested in seeing in a HD shotgun course; how long you would like it to be; and what you would be willing to pay.
My initial thoughts on the subject is to focus on reflexive fire and room clearing particularly in low light. This is not the same as the Combat Shotgun which I already offer but a continuation of that, so I think 1 day of training would serve the purpose. I think a fair market price for the course would be $200.
Anyway I just wanted to get some feedback before I start building the course since it is a significant time investment. The last question is would this course be useful or am I wasting my time? Regardless continue training and be safe.
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Old 10-10-2014, 18:05   #2
Sharkey
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No comments?

I would ask what is the difference you want from this class and the Combat Shotgun class you already teach?

Personally, I'm not an advocate of "reflexive" fire. I definitely would not choose a shotgun either to clear a home unless it was all I had or I had a short barrel version or a KSG.

Reloading under stress
Shooting utilizing cover
Shooting and moving
2 man tactics
Slinging and transition to a handgun

These would be things I would be interested in.
$200 seems the average price but $150 sounds better to me.
Everyone wants to stretch their training dollar. 1 instructor/ 5 people 2 instructors /8-10 people.
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Old 10-11-2014, 08:09   #3
cavintry9mm
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I want the focus for this class to hit basic fundamentals that would be used in a home invasion. How to clear a house with your shotgun being a big one.

Can you elaborate on why your not a fan of reflexive fire?
I agree I am not a big proponent of shotguns for home defense. However, people insist on using them regardless so I think proper training would benefit them. I'm not sure what your definition of "short barrel" is but I wouldn't expect anyone to show up to the class with a hunting shotgun.

Reload, shoot and move, and utilizing cover will definitely be in their. 2 man tactics and pistol transition are in the combat shotgun I course. Basically I'm trying to build a class for the guy/girl that just got their first HD shotgun and needs to know how to use for a home invasion.

When you do the dollar cost analysis of running this business it takes some money to do that. I can teach the class for $150 and still turn a profit. However, that cuts my ability to offer promotions, coupons, discounts etc. because I start loosing money after that. The only way to fix that is to stretch the instructor/student ratio. So as a consumer what would be more important to you?

I appreciate the response, its hard to get good feedback on what consumers want. Let me know if you have any other suggestions.
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Old 10-11-2014, 08:37   #4
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It's a bit more clear to me now. New shotgun owners that might use it in a HD scenario. To me, that is a basic fundamentals course so I would stick to that.

Nomenclature of the shotgun.
Manipulation of the shotgun.
Various load choices and their purposes.
The need for a sling and light on any long gun

Reflexive fire to me is another name for "point" shooting. When I looked up the term, it appears to be a military term and maybe that is why I've never heard of it. If there is a sight, it should be used is my thinking and that is how I train.

There is dynamic entry (getting to your kid) and house clearing and neither should be done with a 18.5 barrel shotgun. To me, the only good reason for the shotgun in a HD setting is that you are barricaded in a room and waiting for the bad guy to enter. Spouses together brings in the 2 man tactics which yeah if it is a fundamental class, might be a bit much.

I understand the pricing structure. I don't solely teach for a living so I don't rely on the money but I've seen a lot of curriculum that burns through a lot of rounds without much instructing. I'm a big believer that more can be done with less and that watching other students and their mistakes are excellent teaching points.

Good luck with the class. I hated drawing up lesson plans.
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Old 10-11-2014, 08:59   #5
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All the topics are what I was intending on touching on so it looks like we are on the same page.

Reflexive fire still uses sights. Instinctive shooting is where we start "point shooting" which has validity but not really in a shotgun engagement. I'm currently ending a 7 year stint in the Army so my civilian/military terminology has not yet caught up.

I couldnt agree more with you on the HD uses of a shotgun, but shooters insist on using it (9/10 it's their dogs sisters aunts cousin was a cop and recommended it). The biggest mistake I see was the Soldiers who buy one for their spouse rack a load in and say "keep this with you i'm going to the field" so this is also another target audience for this class.

Again we agree on the fundamental points, less is more. More ammo wasted is ill equated with quality training.

Thanks for the help. I enjoy drawing up the lesson plans, but if you still had any on digits I would love to see them.
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Old 10-19-2014, 11:44   #6
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For a home invasion course, I recommend you include low light/shooting with a flashlight and one hand manipulation.

I am not an advocate of training civilians to clear a building, even if it is their house.
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Old 10-19-2014, 16:05   #7
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we trained" stress under fire" exercises to show civilians how easy it is, with very little stress induced to step on their d$ck...it makes hd more believeable to someone with the I'm a merc in my house mentality. ie. counting rounds while shooting ammo specific alternating targets with slugs and birdshot, while loading and communicating with "loading" or "covering" audibles.
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Old 10-19-2014, 16:52   #8
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Quote:
I agree I am not a big proponent of shotguns for home defense. However, people insist on using them regardless so I think proper training would benefit them.
The job of the instructor is to instruct as to what they believe are the best skills and tactics for a given situation. End of story!
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Old 10-19-2014, 16:53   #9
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Low-light shooting would be useful. I'd also emphasize shooting weak-hand as much as strong-hand, and how to transition. Most important though, IMHO, is teaching folks to get on target quickly and hit what they intend to hit. Drills to improve those skills would be useful. $150-$200 seems reasonable, as long as it's a day of good info, drills, and training. I hate seeing content that I perceive is filler, to use up time and make attendees feel like they are getting their money's worth.
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Old 10-19-2014, 17:13   #10
cavintry9mm
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Originally Posted by fasteddie565 View Post
For a home invasion course, I recommend you include low light/shooting with a flashlight and one hand manipulation.

I am not an advocate of training civilians to clear a building, even if it is their house.
I think that training civilians to enter and clear a room as if they're in Iraq is probably not necessary. But, clearing their house has validity since they cannot rely on the police to always be there to do it. On that if civilians feel it is fun/important/necessary or whatever I don't see any reason we shouldn't train them to conduct operations, and there is clearly a market for it. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your phrasing but why do you feel like teaching them is a bad idea?
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Old 10-19-2014, 17:15   #11
cavintry9mm
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Originally Posted by glock collector View Post
we trained" stress under fire" exercises to show civilians how easy it is, with very little stress induced to step on their d$ck...it makes hd more believeable to someone with the I'm a merc in my house mentality. ie. counting rounds while shooting ammo specific alternating targets with slugs and birdshot, while loading and communicating with "loading" or "covering" audibles.
So for clarity this class I want to be designed for novice shooters to acquire familiarity with proper use and employment of their shotgun. So that being said do you think a stress shoot might be pushing them to hard?
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Old 10-19-2014, 17:23   #12
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The job of the instructor is to instruct as to what they believe are the best skills and tactics for a given situation. End of story!
There are always multiple ways of doing anything and firearms use, employment, and instruction is no different. Simply because that is not the technique that I use does not mean I think it is foolish, only that I believe in what I consider to be a better approach, and I will always teach with that approach. However, people will still elect to use an alternate technique and that is fine as long as they are properly instructed on that technique. Over the course of my time in the military I have trained hundreds if not thousands of Soldiers and I never once showed them one technique. Bottom line is that people need more then one tool in their tool box and this adds to that.
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Old 10-19-2014, 17:26   #13
cavintry9mm
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Originally Posted by Ferdinandd View Post
Low-light shooting would be useful. I'd also emphasize shooting weak-hand as much as strong-hand, and how to transition. Most important though, IMHO, is teaching folks to get on target quickly and hit what they intend to hit. Drills to improve those skills would be useful. $150-$200 seems reasonable, as long as it's a day of good info, drills, and training. I hate seeing content that I perceive is filler, to use up time and make attendees feel like they are getting their money's worth.
Being a beginners course would you still think weak hand has the necessity to work on when the students are still trying to grasp the fundamentals with their dominant hand? I like the idea of low light shooting and I am trying to think of a way to implement it. Might just have to be a longer training day and we work until after sundown. I couldn't agree with you more I cannot stand it when a class is full of bull**** and useless information.
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Old 10-19-2014, 17:28   #14
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Before I forget I would like to thank each of you for the feedback this should help get my course guided in the right direction.
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Old 10-19-2014, 17:52   #15
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Does GT get a cut of the profits?
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Old 10-21-2014, 17:47   #16
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Originally Posted by fasteddie565 View Post
For a home invasion course, I recommend you include low light/shooting with a flashlight and one hand manipulation.

I am not an advocate of training civilians to clear a building, even if it is their house.
I agree. Im of the opinion that in a HD situation you are best off securing your family and hunkering down with your weapon drawn on a doorway or other fatal funnel and waiting for police. Room clearing is an offensive manuever and if youre on the offensive then you probably have a means of escape, which is what you should be taking even if it is your home. People watch too many movies And IMO civilians really have no business clearing houses.
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Old 10-21-2014, 18:01   #17
cavintry9mm
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I agree. Im of the opinion that in a HD situation you are best off securing your family and hunkering down with your weapon drawn on a doorway or other fatal funnel and waiting for police. Room clearing is an offensive manuever and if youre on the offensive then you probably have a means of escape, which is what you should be taking even if it is your home. People watch too many movies And IMO civilians really have no business clearing houses.
Ideally I agree however there are a couple of issues. 1st I'm not going to call the cops every time I hear a bump in the night as I'm sure you don't. I look to see what it is and when I do I'm armed and I make tactical movements through my house. 2nd it might not be an option if my kids/nephew/sister are asleep upstairs then calling the police is necessary but immediate action is mandatory. No amount of **** in my house is worth taking a life however my family is, and as we have all heard "when seconds count cops are minutes away." I wont argue that ideally we run and as a backup barricade in our house, but we cannot train for the best outcome to happen which is where the armed citizen needs to learn movement. This is also a huge reason why I don't advocate civilians to use a shotgun for Home defense as a first choice since it takes 1000's of hours of training to ever become proficient at clearing a house with a long rifle/shotgun.

Couldn't agree more though people watch too much Jason Bourne and think it's realistic. The bottom line is the priority is to get out of the situation and walking away is always the first option.
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Old 10-21-2014, 19:15   #18
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I think patterning is key. Load selection is right up there as well. Showing folks what will penetrate what may be an eye opener as well. Drills designed to prove that one must in fact aim a shot gun.

Shooting from cover would be good too. Also the difference between cover and concealment is key.

IMHO a lone homeowner should really have a pistol with a WML in one hand and a phone to 911 in the other.

A couple could however integrate the long gun into home defense. That is where the tactical shotgun gains most of its merits.
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Old 10-21-2014, 19:44   #19
cavintry9mm
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I think patterning is key. Load selection is right up there as well. Showing folks what will penetrate what may be an eye opener as well. Drills designed to prove that one must in fact aim a shot gun.

Shooting from cover would be good too. Also the difference between cover and concealment is key.

IMHO a lone homeowner should really have a pistol with a WML in one hand and a phone to 911 in the other.

A couple could however integrate the long gun into home defense. That is where the tactical shotgun gains most of its merits.
I like it thanks.
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Old 10-22-2014, 11:43   #20
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For a novice class:
Manual of arms
Ammo selection
Recoil management
Dealing with the after effects

Emphasize that a shotgun is not a magical room broom that can just be held in the general direction of the threat to eliminate it.


Coupons, discounts, and promotions are a fine if you need to bribe your customers to come to your class. How about offering a good product at a fair price?
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