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Old 12-23-2012, 17:55   #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
You're right. Nothing positive can come out of this at this point.

Thanks.
Please keep this topic limited to this thread. Do not go into other threads and hijack them. It isn't polite. Thanks...
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Old 12-23-2012, 18:01   #502
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First amendment rights. vs 2nd amendment rights.
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Old 12-23-2012, 18:38   #503
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Something egregious...
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
It may be when the NRA themselves compromise on something, saving us from being crushed, and I will be reminding you that it was going to be a political necessity.
Who in this thread said that there will be no compromise? Quote who said there will be no compromise. Of course there will be.

What I and others said is that we should not and we can not afford to go into negotiations carrying a cornucopia of compromise and gift it to the other side.

These are extremely high stakes negotiations, way above your pay grade. You do not begin by divulging your game plan. You do not make the first sacrifice. The blood spilled will only draw more predators.

Yes, there will be compromise. That is why it will be ultra-critical that the negotiation team that will build the plan is the very best, the strongest, the most experienced available. It should contain no one who brings automatic capitulation to the table.

Sheesh, did you really believe we thought there would be no compromises? Where the hell did you get that from? Don't answer, that was rhetorical...
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Old 12-23-2012, 18:49   #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
Folks, we'll see this thread ressurected in the coming weeks or months.

It might be after massive anti-gun legislation has passed, and everyone is greatly upset. And I will reminding all of you that we could have compromised, and not gotten crushed.

It may be when the NRA themselves compromise on something, saving us from being crushed, and I will be reminding you that it was going to be a political necessity.

Or it could be many months from now, when nothing has happened, and things have calmed down, and one of ya'll will drag this thread up to stick it in my face.

We'll see.
Here mr mugger. Take my wallet but leave my watch alone mkay?
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Old 12-23-2012, 18:59   #505
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Here mr mugger. Take my wallet but leave my watch alone mkay?
Very simple, very correct.
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Old 12-23-2012, 19:34   #506
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Well, individuals may walk around in the show or have a table and sell their personally owned guns.

I have never set up a table, but I have walked around with a gun and either traded it, had it worked on at the show, or sold it to either a dealer or individual.

I would always get more if I sold it to a individual than if I traded it or sold it to a dealer.
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Old 12-23-2012, 19:37   #507
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Very simple, very correct.
No compromise. Make them come for the whole shebang. Repeal the second amendment or shove it up your ass. Screw this death by a thousand cuts.
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Old 12-23-2012, 20:49   #508
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What is the “Gun Show Loophole” and what are unlicensed dealers.

OK, I have seen so much misinformation lately that I feel it is necessary to explain the issue in some detail, citing pertinent references.

First off there is no such thing as a “Gun Show Loophole”. One cannot just go to a gunshow and purchase a firearm without completing a BATFE form 4473 and background check.

The exception to this is that if the gun show is conducted in a location where private party sales of firearms are allowed, it’s perfectly within the law (at least as of Christmas 2012) for private individuals, i.e. non firearms dealers to purchase and sell firearms between themselves without the background check or form 4473 requirement.

NOTE – this is the same as it would be outside of a gun show venue. Wherever private party sales of firearms are allowed those transaction can take place anywhere within that state / jurisdiction with whatever restrictions the State places on them. Thankfully in many US States there are few to no restrictions on the private party transactions of firearms.

However Federal and State laws must always be followed in ANY transaction at any location – otherwise that transaction is illegal and already against the law.

The perceived loophole is that there are sometimes “unlicensed dealers” at gunshows. This is a misnomer, as an “unlicensed dealer” by definition would be in VIOLATION of Federal Firearms Laws. This is because if you are a “dealer” of firearms you must have a Federal Firearms License and follow all the rules associated with it.

Again let me stress, if you are a “dealer” of firearms in order for you not to be committing a criminal act, you must be licensed. All gunshow operators that I know of monitor their shows closely and look for these types of folks and do not allow them in. After all its in their, and everyones best interest. Because an “Unlicensed Dealer” is breaking the law and committing a criminal act– period end of discussion.

Now it gets heavy. (Straight from the BATFE web site http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulin...ng-2010-10.htm)


The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C.), section 923(a), provides, in part, that no person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General. A “firearm” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) to include any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, and the frame or receiver of any such weapon.

The term “manufacturer” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10) as any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution. As applied to a manufacturer of firearms, the term “engaged in the business” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(A) and 27 CFR 478.11, as a “person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.”

The term “dealer” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11)(B) and 27 CFR 478.11 to include “any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms …” (i.e., a gunsmith). As applied to a gunsmith, the term “engaged in the business” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11 as a “person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit …”

**The critical thing to understand** here is that nowhere in the definitions is profit an element of either “being in the business” or “engaged in the business” (Note Gunsmith exception) BATFE looks at the totality of someone who they try to show is an (Illegal) dealer. Here are *some* of the specific elements of what they look at to see if someone is an “unlicensed dealer”. In no certain order: Frequency and volume of firearms transactions. Does this person have 5 or 6 firearms go through his possession in a day, week, month, etc. Does the individual make a profit from these transactions? Does this person purchase multiple firearms and sell or trade multiple firearms at a time. Does this person regularly attend gun shows to purchase, sell, and trade firearms? Does this person display firearms at gun shows with intend of buying, selling, or trading. Does this person have business cards that would be used to further the transaction of firearms (Having business cards with something like “I buy, trade and sell Guns” on them sure makes it seem like you are a dealer of firearms) I am sure there are some things I am missing but you get the idea.

Again, its not one, two, or possibly even three of these things which will automatically make you an unlicensed dealer of firearms. It’s all the information put together that paints the complete picture. And whether one agrees with the point or not, an unlicensed firearms dealer is conducting criminal activity.
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Old 12-23-2012, 20:58   #509
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I'm with you. How can you compromise with someone who wants to take your rights away. I'd rather not compromise and loose, than compromise and loose a bit at a time.

I say Hold the line!

Merry Christmas,

Rob

Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
No compromise. Make them come for the whole shebang. Repeal the second amendment or shove it up your ass. Screw this death by a thousand cuts.
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Old 12-23-2012, 21:16   #510
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Not only is there no "gun show loophole," the profesional rights grabbers must KNOW that. But they use the language as a cover for what they really want. Call it "ban private property rights" and it get less support.

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Old 12-23-2012, 21:21   #511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob62 View Post
. . .
OK, I have seen so much misinformation lately that I feel it is necessary to explain the issue in some detail, citing pertinent references.

First off there is no such thing as a “Gun Show Loophole”. One cannot just go to a gunshow and purchase a firearm without completing a BATFE form 4473 and background check.

The exception to this is that if the gun show is conducted in a location where private party sales of firearms are allowed, it’s perfectly within the law (at least as of Christmas 2012) for private individuals, i.e. non firearms dealers to purchase and sell firearms between themselves without the background check or form 4473 requirement.

NOTE – this is the same as it would be outside of a gun show venue. Wherever private party sales of firearms are allowed those transaction can take place anywhere within that state / jurisdiction with whatever restrictions the State places on them. Thankfully in many US States there are few to no restrictions on the private party transactions of firearms.

However Federal and State laws must always be followed in ANY transaction at any location – otherwise that transaction is illegal and already against the law.

The perceived loophole is that there are sometimes “unlicensed dealers” at gunshows. This is a misnomer, as an “unlicensed dealer” by definition would be in VIOLATION of Federal Firearms Laws. This is because if you are a “dealer” of firearms you must have a Federal Firearms License and follow all the rules associated with it.

Again let me stress, if you are a “dealer” of firearms in order for you not to be committing a criminal act, you must be licensed. All gunshow operators that I know of monitor their shows closely and look for these types of folks and do not allow them in. After all its in their, and everyones best interest. Because an “Unlicensed Dealer” is breaking the law and committing a criminal act– period end of discussion.

Now it gets heavy. (Straight from the BATFE web site http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulin...ng-2010-10.htm)


The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C.), section 923(a), provides, in part, that no person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General. A “firearm” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) to include any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, and the frame or receiver of any such weapon.

The term “manufacturer” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10) as any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution. As applied to a manufacturer of firearms, the term “engaged in the business” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(A) and 27 CFR 478.11, as a “person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.”

The term “dealer” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11)(B) and 27 CFR 478.11 to include “any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms …” (i.e., a gunsmith). As applied to a gunsmith, the term “engaged in the business” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11 as a “person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit …”

**The critical thing to understand** here is that nowhere in the definitions is profit an element of either “being in the business” or “engaged in the business” (Note Gunsmith exception) BATFE looks at the totality of someone who they try to show is an (Illegal) dealer. Here are *some* of the specific elements of what they look at to see if someone is an “unlicensed dealer”. In no certain order: Frequency and volume of firearms transactions. Does this person have 5 or 6 firearms go through his possession in a day, week, month, etc. Does the individual make a profit from these transactions? Does this person purchase multiple firearms and sell or trade multiple firearms at a time. Does this person regularly attend gun shows to purchase, sell, and trade firearms? Does this person display firearms at gun shows with intend of buying, selling, or trading. Does this person have business cards that would be used to further the transaction of firearms (Having business cards with something like “I buy, trade and sell Guns” on them sure makes it seem like you are a dealer of firearms) I am sure there are some things I am missing but you get the idea.

Again, its not one, two, or possibly even three of these things which will automatically make you an unlicensed dealer of firearms. It’s all the information put together that paints the complete picture. And whether one agrees with the point or not, an unlicensed firearms dealer is conducting criminal activity.
Very good summary of the law.

Last edited by tslex; 12-23-2012 at 21:29..
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Old 12-23-2012, 21:37   #512
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A seller can setup a table of used Glocks or whatever and sell them to anyone without a background check.

This loophole should be closed and no law abiding gun owner should think otherwise. People that attain guns via this loophole and use them to commit crimes are endangering all our gun rights. Because apparently the right to bear arms is selective.
Absolute nonsense.

There is no such thing as a gun show loophole.

There are two types of gun sales.

1. Those made by Dealers. Those are people regularly engaged in the business of selling firearms.

2. Private sellers. These are individuals not regularly engaged in the business of selling firearms, but may occasionally re-sell a used firearm.

Both may show up at "gun shows" .

Dealers must use the bg check system whether at their storefront of regular business or visiting a gun show.

Private sellers, who are only RE-selling a used firearm, whether at a gunshow, a want ad, or over a fence post to a neighbor do not have nor need the same regulations as a dealer. Being aggregated under a big tent or a show hall with other like minded individuals does not change the nature of a transaction of a private seller and there is no more a gun show loophole than there is a "want ad" loophole. Its a private resale, period.
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Old 12-23-2012, 22:24   #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G29Reload View Post
. . . .
There are two types of gun sales.

1. Those made by Dealers. Those are people regularly engaged in the business of selling firearms.

2. Private sellers. These are individuals not regularly engaged in the business of selling firearms, but may occasionally re-sell a used firearm.

Both may show up at "gun shows" .

Dealers must use the bg check system whether at their storefront of regular business or visiting a gun show.

Private sellers, who are only RE-selling a used firearm, whether at a gunshow, a want ad, or over a fence post to a neighbor do not have nor need the same regulations as a dealer. Being aggregated under a big tent or a show hall with other like minded individuals does not change the nature of a transaction of a private seller and there is no more a gun show loophole than there is a "want ad" loophole. Its a private resale, period.
This is the true truth. And simple really. Which is why I contend the rights-killers don't REALLY misunderstand it. They cannot be that dumb, can they? So if they don't misunderstand it, that makes the "gun show loophole" just another Reichstag fire.

Last edited by tslex; 12-23-2012 at 22:26..
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Old 12-24-2012, 06:29   #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tslex View Post
This is the true truth. And simple really. Which is why I contend the rights-killers don't REALLY misunderstand it. They cannot be that dumb, can they? So if they don't misunderstand it, that makes the "gun show loophole" just another Reichstag fire.
The antis do know the truth about the GSLH, but they have cleverly presented it to the public as unlicensed dealers selling assault weapons and cop-killer handguns to felons at gunshows. Most citizens are unaware that private sales do not require an FFL. The media is mainly responsible for this misunderstanding.
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Old 12-24-2012, 06:46   #515
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Speaking of the "media." weren't they the ones who said the dirty deed was done with 2 psycho handguns while the lonely AR 15 stayed in his car? Oh, that was back when his brother was the killer and his mother was a teacher who was shot in the school. My bad.
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Old 12-24-2012, 08:31   #516
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Note to all of you that want to somehow "compromise" and give a little bit to take arguments away from the anti side and show that we gun owners are reasonable.

While I understand your point - I **totally disagree** with this line of thought and position.

Anti gunners will always find a reason to want more and more restrictions. "Gun Show Loophole" today, ban "only" semi automatic firearms tomorrow, followed by total registration and government mandated storage requirements, and then ultimately the total ban of ownership of any firearm.

What is there to compromise on ?!?! No throwing the dog a bone, because he will only come back for more bones or a pound of flesh.

Hold the line on this issue. There can be no compromise with those that would take away our rights. Not a little nor a lot.

I pose this rhetorical question - has any compromise on firearms laws so far stopped the anti's from coming back to the table for more restrictions?!?! The simple answer is NO ! The more you give the more they want.

Merry Christmas,

Rob
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:19   #517
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Awb

If this has been mentioned in this thread, sorry if I repeat something. This is just added info to toss into the mix:

The Assault Weapon Ban in 1994-2004 was not an outright "ban". All that was banned was the manufacture and importation of such items other than for military or LE use. That is to say, the number of evil guns "on the streets" was constant during that period...except that new "compliant" rifles stripped of evil features entered the market. All could be bought, sold, and traded the same as always.

Yet Ms. Feinstein will argue today that the "ban" was the reason that gun crimes dropped from 1994-2004. So, even with the same number (or more) weapons out there, crime dropped. She defeats her very argument that guns cause crime making that statement. I would suggest that many states passing CHL laws was a more likely reason.
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Old 12-24-2012, 12:18   #518
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Most of what they are talking about is the sale of guns by individuals be they have a booth there or are just walking around, they are not required to verify ID, check your "felony" status just will exchange their gun for your money. I do suggest if you do this to cover yourself if you end up with a stolen gun is to have them fill out a bill of sale (copy here) http://texasguntrader.com/billofsale.pdf
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Old 12-24-2012, 12:57   #519
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How do you "give THOSE PEOPLE a little political victory"?

Do you believe that if you say, "Hey, people, we'll give you NICS for all sales if you will not demand any more," that they will instruct their Congressmen and Representatives to not ask for any more?

Do you believe those politicians will not ask for more?

Do you believe the people will just go away when you agree to give them NICS?
Sure they'll ask for more. They'll point out that without full registration to verify who is selling to who then the checks are really pointless, and since we agree to the checks being necessary how could we possibly oppose the means to ensure all sales are in fact being checked.

Give NOTHING up front.
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Old 12-24-2012, 14:29   #520
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Thank you to those of you who have responded directly to the subject of my thread.
Please refrain from going to far off topic Happy holidays to all.
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Old 12-25-2012, 16:18   #521
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Quote:
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Here in Vegas it is the sellers responsibility to ensure the buyer is a Nevada resident and thats were the sellers responsibility ends.

The buyer has no legal obligation to prove anything but state residency, usually just a drivers license. (for a long gun) Hand guns must be registered by the owner within 30 days but thats on the buyer not the seller.

...........
Handgun owners in Clark County must register their concealable and non-concealable firearms.
I didn't know that before I read this thread.

Sad. Wonder why you guys support that?


Good reason not to live in Clark County (again).
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Old 12-25-2012, 19:11   #522
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Finally. Thank you Rob62 for an excellent answer! Only minor additional info i can add is we all have to remember that Individual STATE laws are so different. And everyone please THINK first and stop believing what the media is shoveling. They play a game with the ignorant / weak minded.......
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Old 12-25-2012, 20:09   #523
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Check out gunownersclub or Armslist. Just like Craigslist, private (not business) sales taking place. If I sell a car or golf clubs or a gun it is not the governments business. I wouldn't sell to a drunk, well except the golf clubs because he will be drinking while using them anyway. If you go thru a dealer to sell your stuff, whatever it is, they will take a cut. You will get hosed if you go thru a dealer, be it golf supplies, cars, or guns. In the past I have bought stuff from friends and co-workers for more than they would have gotten at the pawn shop. They sold because of bills, divorce, etc. and needed money but were being offered 30 cents on the dollar for their stuff. Lately I have been selling my stuff because it is no longer being used and is just taking up space. The only loophole is the one in the logic that says I can't sell my stuff. Now then, does anyone wanna buy some golf clubs?
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Old 12-25-2012, 22:21   #524
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I have had tables at various gun-shows throughout the south and west since 1977. In each venue, adults were able to buy and sell firearms from private individuals w/o a 4473. I have read the replies to this question...I firmly believe that the data does NOT support that criminals are purchasing their firearms in this manner. Consider the last 5 shooting incidents...while reprehensible, in each case the firearms were either legally obtained, or taken from their parents. Like so many other misguided federal gun-laws, when this "loophole" is closed ( and it will be), there will not be any statistically measurable drop in felonious firearm usage. Although Wayne LaPierre has been lambasted for his clumsy reply to the CT shootings, he is correct: "The way to stop a bad guy with a gun...is with a Good Guy with a gun"...You don't see this happening in Israel...sadly, many of us in the US just don't get it...yet...
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