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Old 12-23-2012, 15:08   #476
tehan2
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
You've got about 1/2 of it correct.
of the 1/2 I have correct... you are wrong

oh and I had a typo in the 1st sentence that I corrected. I typed "not" and meant "now" ...which I think puts me back at understanding

Last edited by tehan2; 12-23-2012 at 15:16..
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Old 12-23-2012, 15:16   #477
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of the 1/2 I have correct... you are wrong
Then explain how I am wrong.

If you want to debate this, do it point by point.

But in order to do so, you have to first know what the heck you're debating against.

So far, you can't do that.

Hell, if you have better ideas, share them, I'm all ears. Then I will pick apart what you have to say.

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Old 12-23-2012, 15:17   #478
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All I have seen here is a bunch of people that seem clueless as to how politics and public opinion work in this country, or are actively burrying their heads in the sand and hoping this just all blows over.
Or the other people posting here are aware that appeasement only leads to further demands.
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Hell, I challenge you to parphrase what my position is, I bet you can't do it.
Forcing all gun owners to do all transfers through an FFL in the desperate hope that DiFi, Schumer et al won't perceive that concession as weakness and make other demands.
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I'm no friend to gun owners? I AM a gun owner, and a proud supporter of the 2A.
And exactly how do you support the 2nd amendment? Other than urging capitulation here at GT what have you done to preserve 2nd amendment rights? You have apparently been too preoccupied with other things to fork over $25 for NRA membership.
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What are YOUR ideas?
Force the bastards to fight for every millimeter of forward progress
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And if the forces gathering against us are as bad as I think they are, you might find a few months down the road that you wish you had listened to me, and forwarded these ideas en masse to the NRA.
Why don't you write to the NRA right now and let them know that you are too cheap to have a membership but that they should surrender the transfer through FFL point before the fight even begins. That should get their attention.
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Last edited by G26S239; 12-23-2012 at 15:18..
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Old 12-23-2012, 15:24   #479
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if after 4 days and 477 posts, nobody and explain your position, maybe you should take this opportunity to list them very clear and concise in one post so that I (we?) can understand....
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Old 12-23-2012, 15:24   #480
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Or the other people posting here are aware that appeasement only leads to further demands.

Forcing all gun owners to do all transfers through an FFL in the desperate hope that DiFi, Schumer et al won't perceive that concession as weakness and make other demands.

And exactly how do you support the 2nd amendment? Other than urging capitulation here at GT what have you done to preserve 2nd amendment rights? You have apparently been too preoccupied with other things to fork over $25 for NRA membership.

Force the bastards to fight for every millimeter of forward progress

Why don't you write to the NRA right now and let them know that you are too cheap to have a membership but that they should surrender the transfer through FFL point before the fight even begins. That should get their attention.
Further demands can only be met when the left have the political capital to legislatively force their demands. They won't have the capital for very long, they have to move fast before they lose their momentum and the story dies out of the public conscience.

If we give a small concession, Feinstein et al will LOOSE the political power that allows them to demand more antigun leislation. What they perceive won't mean a damn thing, they won't be able to do anything more.

Force them to fight for everything? What happens when they win and TAKE EVERYTHING? Because they can do that, right now, easily.

Again, you're not understanding what I have been repeating for days and days now.

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Old 12-23-2012, 15:28   #481
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if after 4 days and 477 posts, nobody and explain your position, maybe you should take this opportunity to list them very clear and concise in one post so that I (we?) can understand....
Try this....folks seemed to understand and agree with this post of mine explaining things. The only part I left out was suggesting closing the GSLH.

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Leme try and explain this quickly without too many words.

It's about votes in the legislature, political capital, and ground-swell support for gun-control legislation.

We gun owners need to understand that pro-gun folks represent a very small minority, and anti-gun folks also represent a very small minority. Right now, neither group is going to be the main force behind the coming anti-gun legislation.

The vast majority of people in this country are not interested in guns and gun-control one way or another. They don't care one bit, can't be bothered to take a stance one way or the other.

Until Sandy Hook.

Now our elected representatives in the legislature are being bombarded on a daily basis with phone calls, e-mails and letters demanding gun-control legislation, from millions of people that previously couldn't have cared less.

There now exists in this country a rapidly rising tide of support for gun control. It gives anti-gun legislators the political capital to coherse other elected representatives to vote for gun-control, that normally would vote against it.

The real force behind the looming anti-gun legislation is every-day folks that, previous to Sandy Hook, had no interest in guns or gun-control.

This is what is happening, that's the "how and why" of the coming legislation.

Our only hope is that passing time, and the fight over the "Fiscal Cliff", will turn media attention away for long enough that the support for gun control legislation loses it's momentum. Sadly, I doubt it will.
Does the fact that folks agreed with this post, where I left out my idea about closing the GSLH, show you something?

I really am not trying to suggest that my idea about the GSLH is the only path. We simply need to find something we can do to get millions and millions of Americans to chill out, to remove the political power that the anti-gunners currently enjoy.

If we can achieve that, we can keep our loses to a minimum.

Last edited by M&P15T; 12-23-2012 at 15:39..
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Old 12-23-2012, 15:38   #482
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Further demands can only be met when the left have the political capital to legislatively force their demands. They won't have the capital for very long, they have to move fast before they lose their momentum and the story dies out of the public conscience.

If we give a small concession, Feinstein et al will LOOSE the political power that allows them to demand more antigun leislation. What they perceive won't mean a damn thing, they won't be able to do anything more.

Force them to fight for everything? What happens when they win and TAKE EVERYTHING? Because they can do that, right now, easily.

Again, you're not understanding what I have been repeating for days and days now.
I understand exactly what you are saying. Give the antis the Sudetenland and they won't attack Poland or invade Paris. I just don't view that as a winning formula.

If they could take everything they would. The fact that you can't grok that does not reflect well on your reasoning abilities.

You did not address my question about what, if anything, you have done in support of the 2nd amendment.
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Old 12-23-2012, 15:44   #483
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I understand exactly what you are saying. Give the antis the Sudetenland and they won't attack Poland or invade Paris. I just don't view that as a winning formula.

If they could take everything they would. The fact that you can't grok that does not reflect well on your reasoning abilities.

You did not address my question about what, if anything, you have done in support of the 2nd amendment.
No, you aboslutely DO NOT understand what I am saying.

They CAN take everything, and THEY WILL, if we don't compromise is some fashion....they will have the votes to pass antigun legislation. This is the fundamental mistake in your reasoning. By compromising, we cause them to lose their power of popular opinion, and then they CAN'T TAKE ANYMORE.

This isn't like facing the Nazis during WWII. The Nazis couldn't be disarmed by losing public support, the Nazis couldn't care less what the rest of the world thought of them. And they sure as hell couldn't get voted out of trying to enslave the world.

But, just like the Chamberlain giving the Nazis the Sudatenland, we are forced to compromise because WE CANNOT BEAT THE ANTI-GUNNERS RIGHT NOW. We cannot stop them from passing anti-gun legislation unless we remove their popular support in the populace.

Please don't question me on my support of the 2A. I was an NRA member for many years, and just got sick of their marketing crap filling my mail box. And at this very moment I am competely broke.

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Old 12-23-2012, 15:45   #484
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Politics Russ, politics.

I am explaining that I understand how politically savy people are in this area. How folks in this area trust no one, and only look out for themselves. How all they are about are their own interests.

I don't know anything about their ideals on specific topics like firearms, but I sure as hell know what type of people live in this area, how they care about their own interests and nothing else.
How do you know that if you never speak with them about political matters?
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Last edited by RussP; 12-23-2012 at 15:59..
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Old 12-23-2012, 15:59   #485
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How do you know that if you never speak with them about personal matters?
Stop it Russ....just knock it off.

You are down in the weeds, trying to prove something that means absolutely nothing. You are desperately trying to find one small crack on a useless point, in an attempt to then discredit everything I have been saying.

I get to know and understand my clinets in a broad manner, but never risk asking them anything in specific. Anyone in sales can understand that.

Look, you clearly disagree with me. Whether that's because of the subject matter, me, or because you're not understanding what I'm saying, it just doesn't matter.

We have been at this for hours now, and no headway is being made what so ever.

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Old 12-23-2012, 16:03   #486
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No, you aboslutely DO NOT understand what I am saying.

They CAN take everything, and THEY WILL, if we don't compromise is some fashion....they will have the votes to pass antigun legislation. This is the fundamental mistake in your reasoning. By compromising, we cause them to lose their power of popular opinion, and then they CAN'T TAKE ANYMORE.

This isn't like facing the Nazis during WWII. They couldn't be disarmed by losing public support, they couldn't care less what the rest of the world thought of them. And they sure as hell couldn't get voted out of trying to enslave the world.
Like the Dims really gave a rat's ass about public support of Obamacare? You are hopeless.

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Please don't question me on my support of the 2A. I was an NRA member for many years, and just got sick of their marketing crap filling my mail box. And at this very moment I am competely broke.
Actually that is a very reasonable question given that you are advocating capitulation. The fact that you were not able to name ONE positive thing you have done for the 2nd amendment, while castigating others and questioning their collective intelligence for not getting on board with your capitulation scheme, is very telling.

You do not look very pro 2nd amendment from where I sit.
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Old 12-23-2012, 16:11   #487
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Like the Dims really gave a rat's ass about public support of Obamacare? You are hopeless.
The dems had the votes to pass it, and that's all that matters. Just like they have the votes to pass anti-gun legislation.

I don't think you get that.....talk about hopeless.

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Actually that is a very reasonable question given that you are advocating capitulation. The fact that you were not able to name ONE positive thing you have done for the 2nd amendment, while castigating others and questioning their collective intelligence for not getting on board with your capitulation scheme, is very telling.

You do not look very pro 2nd amendment from where I sit.
I've donated hundreds of dollars to the NRA. I guess you missed that I was a member for years. I have also taken many new shooters to the range and got them interested in the shooting sports. I also take every opportunity (outside of work) to educate people about firearms and the real meaning of the 2A.

And my scheme is NOT ONE of capitulation. It is COMPROMISE in the face of overwhelming odds. It's called giving in a little bit, instead of allowing ourselves to get CRUSHED.

You really, really aren't getting this.

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Old 12-23-2012, 16:27   #488
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Look, you've made your point, many times. Many of us disagree with you. You say to disagree is to not understand. That is not true.

You believe people will forget Sandy Hook in the next few months. That is not true.

You believe the media, anti-gun groups, anti-gun legislators, anti-gun politicians at several levels will forget, or will allow this country to forget the murder of 20 children. That is not true.

You believe politicians will say, "Thank you for letting us close the "gun show 'loop hole'," then go away without pursuing many more restrictions. That is not true.

No matter how many times you go to your wishing well, those fantasies of yours will never come true.

The only truth you speak is that there will be a massive push for maximum firearm restrictions. That is true.

Oh, and sorry to hear about your finances. Perhaps in the future your negotiating skills will improve to where your company's profit does better.

Folks, unless M&P makes some completely egregious comment, I am out of here.

Oh, yeah, M&P, deliberately misspelling words to avoid the language filter violates GT Rules...
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Old 12-23-2012, 16:35   #489
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This qualifies...
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Stop it Russ....just knock it off.

You are down in the weeds, trying to prove something that means absolutely nothing. You are desperately trying to find one small crack on a useless point, in an attempt to then discredit everything I have been saying.
Yep, it goes to your credibility. Desperate? No. You're the one illustrating desperation, frustration over no ones acceptance of what you are saying.
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Old 12-23-2012, 16:37   #490
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Look, you've made your point, many times. Many of us disagree with you. You say to disagree is to not understand. That is not true.
No, I said there are many reasons why you may be disagreeing with me.

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You believe people will forget Sandy Hook in the next few months. That is not true.
No, I do not believe people will forget Sandy Hook in a few months. I believe they will stop with their efforts to put pressure on their elected representatives. Their phone calls and e-mails and letters will slow and then stop over time. That's how these things work.

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You believe the media, anti-gun groups, anti-gun legislators, anti-gun politicians at several levels will forget, or will allow this country to forget the murder of 20 children. That is not true.
No, I do NOT believe the anti-guners will forget, or allow others to forget. I have SPECIFICALLY stated that they will push to keep people remembering what happened, that they will use this tragedy to their upmost ability. I even said that the anti-gunners will bring in parents that lost their children at Sandy Hook in a televised emotional appeal to help their cause.

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You believe politicians will say, "Thank you for letting us close the "gun show 'loop hole'," then go away without pursuing many more restrictions. That is not true.
No, I do not believe the anti-gun politicians will go away without pushing for more restirctions. I said that the millions of people that are pressuring their elected representatives will be appeased by closing the GSLH. Thereby ending the ground swell of support the politicians have, stopping their ability to demand more restrictions.

Russ, the only thing we agree on is that anti-gun legislation is going to happen.

So, let me ask you this: What would you suggest we do about it? Going on the assumption that we can't stop them from passing anti-gun legislation, what is the smart move right now?

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Old 12-23-2012, 16:47   #491
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This qualifies...Yep, it goes to your credibility. Desperate? No. You're the one illustrating desperation, frustration over no ones acceptance of what you are saying.
I've seen this rodeo before Russ, it's not frustrating, just tiring.

It's the "pile on" that happens when folks don't comprehend the discussion, and then just go along with what others are saying.
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Old 12-23-2012, 17:01   #492
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No, I said there are many reasons why you may be disagreeing with me.

No, I do not believe people will forget Sandy Hook in a few months. I believe they will stop with their efforts to put pressure on their elected representatives. Their phone calls and e-mails and letters will slow and then stop over time. That's how these things work.

No, I do NOT believe the anti-guners will forget, or allow others to forget. I have SPECIFICALLY stated that they will push to keep people remembering what happened, that they will use this tragedy to their upmost ability. I even said that the anti-gunners will bring in parents that lost their children at Sandy Hook in a televised emotional appeal to help their cause.

No, I do not believe the anti-gun politicians will go away without pushing for more restirctions. I said that the millions of people that are pressuring their elected representatives will be appeased by closing the GSLH. Thereby ending the ground swell of support the politicians have, stopping their ability to demand more restrictions.

Russ, you miss-understand everything I have suggested.
Hmm, where is that gif...?

Wait! Found it!

The Okie Corral


On a side note: Being a misunderstood genius must be very taxing on one's psyche.

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Old 12-23-2012, 17:05   #493
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On a side note: Being a misunderstood genius must be very taxing on one's psyche.

My perspective on this topic has evolved, but I wouldn't call anything back pedaling. As the topic has beend discussed, I have found and added even better reasons for compromise, leaving behind lesser reasons.

Starting with today, find any place where my suggestions have changed, or I've back-pedaled.

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Old 12-23-2012, 17:09   #494
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Thanks Russ.
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Old 12-23-2012, 17:16   #495
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well after reading all 20 pages you've changed my mind....
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Old 12-23-2012, 17:22   #496
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well after reading all 20 pages you've changed my mind....
Of course not. You'd rather see us get crushed because you refuse to understand the necessity of compromising.
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Old 12-23-2012, 17:25   #497
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Take a bathroom break, M&P. Not hating you or flaming you but take a break. We've been on the same side several times, opposite too.

You questioned me on a post and suggested I was in need of a break and to think.

Your turn.
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Old 12-23-2012, 17:28   #498
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Folks, we'll see this thread ressurected in the coming weeks or months.

It might be after massive anti-gun legislation has passed, and everyone is greatly upset. And I will reminding all of you that we could have compromised, and not gotten crushed.

It may be when the NRA themselves compromise on something, saving us from being crushed, and I will be reminding you that it was going to be a political necessity.

Or it could be many months from now, when nothing has happened, and things have calmed down, and one of ya'll will drag this thread up to stick it in my face.

We'll see.
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Old 12-23-2012, 17:29   #499
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Take a bathroom break, M&P. Not hating you or flaming you but take a break. We've been on the same side several times, opposite too.

You questioned me on a post and suggested I was in need of a break and to think.

Your turn.
You're right. Nothing positive can come out of this at this point.

Thanks.

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Old 12-23-2012, 17:33   #500
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Good for post count! Amuraca, **** yeah!
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