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Old 12-23-2012, 13:44   #451
Veedubklown
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
Let me ask another way.

Has anyone every seen a private seller, with a table set-up inside a gunshow, selling firearms without NICS checks?
Yes, and I've bought them this way. I've also bought guns at garage sales. The only way to close this "loophole" is to require all sales go through an FFL dealer, like california. Where they can impose a waiting period, on a transaction, between you and another private individual. I'd prefer to keep .gov out of my private dealings. If I want to sell a radial saw or baseball bat to another person, so what. It's mine. Only requirement is that the seller confirms the buyer is a state resident. It's not the seller's responsibility to know the history of the buyer. A prohibited possessor trying to buy a gun, carries something like a 10 year sentence.
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Old 12-23-2012, 13:47   #452
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Yes, and I've bought them this way. I've also bought guns at garage sales. The only way to close this "loophole" is to require all sales go through an FFL dealer, like california.
And the only way to enforce that is to register every gun. I'm sure you've thought of that but the fact is often lost in the discussion, so I like to repeat it whenever we consider banning private sales.
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Old 12-23-2012, 13:52   #453
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Plus I live in "the area". I have worked for hours and hours with the same type of people that will be determining the future of gun legislation in this country.
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I....uh...can't be any clearer than my clearly-visible-for-all-to-see location.

I work with folks in the .Gov all the time.
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As I tried to explain, I would have no idea. Politics is a verbotten topic, so I would have no idea. If you can't accept that, I can't help you. I truly have no idea what folks here think about gun-control, I would not ask such questions of a perspective client.
So you work "in the area" and have "worked for hours and hours with the same type of people that will be determining the future of gun legislation in this country," "the folks in the .Gov all the time," and you rely on where you live and the people you work with as a basis for your beliefs, yet you do not know their political views because you do not discuss politics with them.

Huh?
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Old 12-23-2012, 13:53   #454
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We DO get what you are proposing.
  • Do not worry about Bloomburg [sic], Feinstein, or the media.

  • They are powerless without the people who normally do not pay attention to guns or gun laws, or gun issues.

  • You propose offering those people who normally do not pay attention to guns or gun laws, or gun issues, a law requiring all gun show sales between private individuals include an NICS background check.

  • In exchange, all those who normally do not pay attention to guns or gun laws, or gun issues will back off on requiring any further restrictions on gun and gun accessory ownership and possession.

  • You propose that Bloomburg [sic], Feinstein and the media will listen to all those who normally do not pay attention to guns or gun laws, or gun issues and will not pursue additional restrictions themselves because all those who normally do not pay attention to guns or gun laws, gun issues will have faded into the background again.
Now, is that a fair representation of what you are proposing?
"You propose that Bloomburg [sic], Feinstein and the media will listen to all those who normally do not pay attention to guns or gun laws, or gun issues, and will not pursue additional restrictions themselves because all those who normally do not pay attention to guns or gun laws, gun issues will have faded into the background again."

You're getting close.

There are (as a guesstimate) millions of people that normally do not care about guns, and gun legislation, that are going absolutely nucking futz over what happened at Sandy Hook.

These people are (temporarily) giving Bloomburg, Feinstein, et al their (temporary) ability to get anti-gun legislation passed. These people will slowly lose their interest over time, and therefore the power to enact anti-gun legislation will fade over time.

But the next few months are going to be crucial. If our elected officials start debating gun-control legislation in January, when the topic is still hot, and the general US population is still crazy over the shooting, they will be able to pass sweeping anti-gun legislation that will crush us.

And can you imagine what would happen if the anti-gunners roll the "Parents of the Disappeared" from the Sandy Hook shooting into the debates, and have them emotionally appeal for more gun-control live on National T.V.?

Holy ****, we could lose more than were are even thinking about right now!!

But the word "temporary" is the main point. If we head the entire situation off at the pass, if we (through the NRA) come to the table with closing the GSLO, we gun owners (and the NRA) look reasonable in the eyes of the media and the general US population, and we defuse the situation.

Plus, we would have an actual hand in crafting the legislation, and be able to exert some control over it. Instead of just refusing to compromise at all, and being shut-out from the legislative process.

This is the idea. We step-up proactively, give just a little, and stop them from crushing our gun-rights whole sale.

Russ, we have never seen anything like Sandy Hook before. You either understand that, understand the passion there, or everything I'm saying is not going to make sense.

Last edited by M&P15T; 12-23-2012 at 13:55..
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Old 12-23-2012, 13:57   #455
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So you work "in the area" and have "worked for hours and hours with the same type of people that will be determining the future of gun legislation in this country," "the folks in the .Gov all the time," and you rely on where you live and the people you work with as a basis for your beliefs, yet you do not know their political views because you do not discuss politics with them.

Huh?
Nooooo...

I'm not basing my beliefs about looming gun legislation based on my interactions with clients. Like I said, I do not talk politics with clients.
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Old 12-23-2012, 14:00   #456
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M&P, would you favor a national gun registry if "Antis, Inc." would promis to back off on further gun control?
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Old 12-23-2012, 14:02   #457
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Nooooo...

I'm not basing my beliefs about looming gun legislation based on my interactions with clients. Like I said, I do not talk politics with clients.
Then why did you bring the fact you live in NoVA into the discussion?
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Plus I live in "the area". I have worked for hours and hours with the same type of people that will be determining the future of gun legislation in this country.
What does that mean? What is your point?
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Old 12-23-2012, 14:08   #458
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Yes, and I've bought them this way. I've also bought guns at garage sales. The only way to close this "loophole" is to require all sales go through an FFL dealer, like california. Where they can impose a waiting period, on a transaction, between you and another private individual. I'd prefer to keep .gov out of my private dealings. If I want to sell a radial saw or baseball bat to another person, so what. It's mine. Only requirement is that the seller confirms the buyer is a state resident. It's not the seller's responsibility to know the history of the buyer. A prohibited possessor trying to buy a gun, carries something like a 10 year sentence.
I live in the PRK and it sucks for the reasons you allude to. It takes a speshul person to believe that having a govt finger in your keester makes life better.
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Old 12-23-2012, 14:09   #459
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You either believe that gun-control legislation is going to happen, or you don't.
Show one post where anyone here states there will be no restrictive legislation on firearms.

Show just one.
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Old 12-23-2012, 14:12   #460
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How to Ban Guns
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Old 12-23-2012, 14:14   #461
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M&P, would you favor a national gun registry if "Antis, Inc." would promis to back off on further gun control?
You only compromise if you have no other options available to you....only if you are facing over-whelming odds, and can't win the battle before you.

Over the last few decades the anti-gun folks have had very little political power, almost no ability to pass any anti-gun legislation. But then Sandy Hook happened.

We are now facing serious (if temporary) opposition to our freedoms. We are facing what I believe is a ground-swell of support for anti-gun legislation.

Would I support a gun registry in exchange for 0 additional anti-gun legislation? Only if that was a necessary compromise.

It just all depends on what happens in January. It depends on how had things really are for us.

What if there is another mass shooting of kids at another grade school in the next few weeks? Why do you think the NRA is pushing for cops in schools?

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Old 12-23-2012, 14:17   #462
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With friends like M&P15T gun owners really don't need enemies.
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Old 12-23-2012, 14:17   #463
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Show one post where anyone here states there will be no restrictive legislation on firearms.

Show just one.
I didn't say there was Russ.

I'm trying to build a logical argument, trying to get folks here to build from one logical part of the idea to the next, step by step.

Understanding that anti-gun legislation is looming is the first step.
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Old 12-23-2012, 14:19   #464
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With friends like M&P15T gun owners really don't need enemies.
It would be better if we could not get into personally insulting one another.

If you want to disagree with me, do so with logic and sound ideas, not insults.
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Old 12-23-2012, 14:24   #465
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It would be better if we could not get into personally insulting one another.

If you want to disagree with me, do so with logic and sound ideas, not insults.
I'm not insulting you I'm calling it like I see it.

Myself and several others have spent multiple pages disagreeing with you on sound logic and principles but you still persist in your desire to negotiate away our second amendment rights.

You're no friend to gun owners.
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Old 12-23-2012, 14:24   #466
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There's also this...
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Old 12-23-2012, 14:24   #467
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Then why did you bring the fact you live in NoVA into the discussion?What does that mean? What is your point?
Politics Russ, politics.

I am explaining that I understand how politically savy people are in this area. How folks in this area trust no one, and only look out for themselves. How all they are about are their own interests.

I don't know anything about their ideals on specific topics like firearms, but I sure as hell know what type of people live in this area, how they care about their own interests and nothing else.
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Old 12-23-2012, 14:29   #468
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I'm not insulting you I'm calling it like I see it.

Myself and several others have spent multiple pages disagreeing with you on sound logic and principles but you still persist in your desire to negotiate away our second amendment rights.

You're no friend to gun owners.
No, not one person has presented any sound logic or principals. Because almost no one has shown any ability to understand what I'm saying, much less refute any of my ideas with facts or logic.

All I have seen here is a bunch of people that seem clueless as to how politics and public opinion work in this country, or are actively burrying their heads in the sand and hoping this just all blows over.

Hell, I challenge you to parphrase what my position is, I bet you can't do it. Russ and I have been discussing this over a few days, and even HE can't grasp it properly.

I'm no friend to gun owners? I AM a gun owner, and a proud supporter of the 2A. I'm also smart enough to see what is coming and at least propose an idea as to how to put a clamp on it. And what, exactly, have you come up with? What are YOUR ideas?

And if the forces gathering against us are as bad as I think they are, you might find a few months down the road that you wish you had listened to me, and forwarded these ideas en masse to the NRA.

Last edited by M&P15T; 12-23-2012 at 14:34..
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Old 12-23-2012, 14:38   #469
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It would be better if we could not get into personally insulting one another.

If you want to disagree with me, do so with logic and sound ideas, not insults.
Oh, the irony.
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Old 12-23-2012, 14:46   #470
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
"You propose that Bloomburg [sic], Feinstein and the media will listen to all those who normally do not pay attention to guns or gun laws, or gun issues, and will not pursue additional restrictions themselves because all those who normally do not pay attention to guns or gun laws, gun issues will have faded into the background again."

You're getting close.
What is not correct or accurate about that portion of my post you quoted?

What about the other points now in bold?
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
We DO get what you are proposing.
  • Do not worry about Bloomburg [sic], Feinstein, or the media.

  • They are powerless without the people who normally do not pay attention to guns or gun laws, or gun issues.

  • You propose offering those people who normally do not pay attention to guns or gun laws, or gun issues a law requiring all gun show sales between private individuals include an NICS background check.

  • In exchange, all those who normally do not pay attention to guns or gun laws, or gun issues will back off on requiring any further restrictions on gun and gun accessory ownership and possession.

  • You propose that Bloomburg [sic], Feinstein and the media will listen to all those who normally do not pay attention to guns or gun laws, or gun issues and will not pursue additional restrictions themselves because all those who normally do not pay attention to guns or gun laws, gun issues will have faded into the background again.

Now, is that a fair representation of what you are proposing?
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post

There are (as a guesstimate) millions of people that normally do not care about guns, and gun legislation, that are going absolutely nucking futz over what happened at Sandy Hook.

These people are (temporarily) giving Bloomburg, Feinstein, et al their (temporary) ability to get anti-gun legislation passed. These people will slowly lose their interest over time, and therefore the power to enact anti-gun legislation will fade over time.

But the next few months are going to be crucial. If our elected officials start debating gun-control legislation in January, when the topic is still hot, and the general US population is still crazy over the shooting, they will be able to pass sweeping anti-gun legislation that will crush us.

And can you imagine what would happen if the anti-gunners roll the "Parents of the Disappeared" from the Sandy Hook shooting into the debates, and have them emotionally appeal for more gun-control live on National T.V.?

Holy ****, we could lose more than were are even thinking about right now!!

But the word "temporary" is the main point. If we head the entire situation off at the pass, if we (through the NRA) come to the table with closing the GSLO, we gun owners (and the NRA) look reasonable in the eyes of the media and the general US population, and we defuse the situation.

Plus, we would have an actual hand in crafting the legislation, and be able to exert some control over it. Instead of just refusing to compromise at all, and being shut-out from the legislative process.

This is the idea. We step-up proactively, give just a little, and stop them from crushing our gun-rights whole sale.
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Russ, we have never seen anything like Sandy Hook before. You either understand that, understand the passion there, or everything I'm saying is not going to make sense.
One of your problems is you believe you are the only person who understands today's issues. That is false.

Many of us have a much better grasp on reality, the totality of circumstances, than you.

We have tried to point out the fallacies of your approach, but you refuse to consider any other viewpoint.

Do you really believe the media, Bloomberg, Feinstein, Warner of Virginia who just flipped to favoring firearm restrictions, the Representatives and Senators facing reelection next are going to forget? You are wrong, very, very, very wrong.

What in history makes you believe your plan, giving up something to bribe people to forget will work?

They are going to DEMAND EVERYTHING. What in't demanded at the Federal level, the states will demand.
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Old 12-23-2012, 14:54   #471
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I didn't say there was Russ.

I'm trying to build a logical argument, trying to get folks here to build from one logical part of the idea to the next, step by step.

Understanding that anti-gun legislation is looming is the first step.
You keep saying that...
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If you do not believe that gun-control legislation is going to happen, then yes, nothing I'm saying is correct. And you shouldn't bother trying to argue with me, because nothing I'm saying is going to make any sense.

I have already said this before, many, many times.
Yet no one is saying that it isn't so.

Based on my reading of every single post in this thread, I will speak for all those currently participating here and say, again, "Yes, anti-gun legislation is coming."

Do you accept that there is no post in this thread saying anything different?
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Old 12-23-2012, 14:55   #472
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What is not correct or accurate about that portion of my post you quoted?

What about the other points now in bold?[INDENT]

One of your problems is you believe you are the only person who understands today's issues. That is false.

Many of us have a much better grasp on reality, the totality of circumstances, than you.

We have tried to point out the fallacies of your approach, but you refuse to consider any other viewpoint.

Do you really believe the media, Bloomberg, Feinstein, Warner of Virginia who just flipped to favoring firearm restrictions, the Representatives and Senators facing reelection next, are going to forget? You are wrong, very, very, very wrong.

What in history makes you believe your plan, giving up something to bribe people to forget, will work?

They are going to DEMAND EVERYTHING. What in't demanded at the Federal level, the states will demand.
Sorry, buddy, but I can't make much sense of the red highlighted part. It just doesn't make any sense. Please try and re-state that part more clearly. Forget? Forget what?

What in History do I believe shows that sometimes compromise is either the smart move, or the would have been the smart move?

Tons and tons and tons of stuff.....like....TONS of stuff.

There are tons of crushing defeats that have occured when the one of the beligerants had an out they refused to take. When a huge loss could have been avoided through compromise.

There are tons of times when massive battles were avoided by compromises.

Sadly, your last sentance about "bribing people to forget" shows that you are still not getting it. That's not how things work, nor what I'm suggesting.

Last edited by M&P15T; 12-23-2012 at 14:59..
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Old 12-23-2012, 14:55   #473
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You keep saying that...Yet no one is saying that it isn't so.

Based on my reading of every single post in this thread, I will speak for all those currently participating here and say, again, "Yes, anti-gun legislation is coming."

Do you accept that there is no post in this thread saying anything different?
Sure.

Hopefully that means we're getting closer to folks understanding what I'm saying.
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Old 12-23-2012, 15:02   #474
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Hell, I challenge you to parphrase what my position is, I bet you can't do it. Russ and I have been discussing this over a few days, and even HE can't grasp it properly.
ok, here I go...

You believe that "most Americans" are now outraged due to the CT shooting. You also believe that this can be a short lived outrage. You position is that we can appease these people (and obviously not the hard core antis) by throwing them the bone of the gun show loophole. This, in your opinion, would show that we too are outraged and willing to work for a solution. And with us throwing the bone, the millions of Americans that are not usually passionate about gun laws will be satisfied enough that it could be enough. You follow that position with if we do "nothing" the debate could gather enough steam that these "normally neutral millions could in time become anti, or that the antis will become stronger because of it....


how's that?


now my position is that you are incredibly naive and somewhat arrogant to think that you have the answer (which most of us think is wrong)

.

Last edited by tehan2; 12-23-2012 at 15:05..
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Old 12-23-2012, 15:06   #475
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ok, here I go...

You believe that "most Americans" are not outraged due to the CT shooting. You also believe that this can be a short lived outrage. You position is that we can appease these people (and obviously not the hard core antis) by throwing them the bone of the gun show loophole. This, in your opinion, would show that we too are outraged and willing to work for a solution. And with us throwing the bone, the millions of Americans that are not usually passionate about gun laws will be satisfied enough that it could be enough. You follow that position with if we do "nothing" the debate could gather enough steam that these "normally neutral millions could in time become anti, or that the antis will become stronger because of it....


how's that?


now my position is that you are incredibly naive and somewhat arrogant to think that you are the only one smart enough
You've got about 1/2 of it correct. I high-lighted where you're still missing a bit.

Of course since your first part is completely incorrect, it could be said that none of the rest is really correct....since the rest builds on the first part.

Last edited by M&P15T; 12-23-2012 at 15:10..
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