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Old 12-23-2012, 11:38   #401
M&P15T
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Have you ever negotiated for anything
in your life. I don't mean a better price on your car, either.
Russ, do you believe we as firearms owners have anything to negotiate with right now?

Do you believe that we have any poltical capital to spend right now?

Please, Russ, please......tell me all about the tons of political capital we firearms owners have to negotiate with.

Tell me about how we have the ability to stop anti-giun legislation from passing right now. Tell me about how we can demand things right now.

Last edited by M&P15T; 12-23-2012 at 11:40..
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:39   #402
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Because I am STILL waiting for one person to post anything that is based on any sort of logic or understanding.

Here's something...

Just suppose all of us expect some type of legislation to pass, and I think we "all" acknowledge that even without support of the people that something is going to get pushed through.

Here's what we do...."We" offer training to make our schools safer, we offer something that will potentially be effective against a shooter. "We" teach people that a gun in a law abiding persons hand is a benifit to the community not a detriment.

"They" will say that "our" idea is stupid and irrational. "They" will ask for a ban on everything except guns that "hunters" would use (because without the FUDD vote they have nothing). And when it's all said and done, something will pass that's in the middle of what the two sides want.

The goal is to lose as little as possible and fight for every little inch so that "we" minimize the loss. To think that we should "throw them a bone" and hope trhey're happy is incredibly naive

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Old 12-23-2012, 11:44   #403
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No, you're not getting it.

The left has already determined that this is going to be about guns and gun control.

What YOU, OR I, think about the situation matters not one little bit.
So, your position that we gun owners should give up and accept NICS for all gun transactions at gun shows "matters not one little bit."

Then why give it up if it is all predestined?
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:48   #404
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How do you "give THOSE PEOPLE a little political victory"?

Do you believe that if you say, "Hey, people, we'll give you NICS for all sales if you will not demand any more," that they will instruct their Congressmen and Representatives to not ask for any more?

Do you believe those politicians will not ask for more?

Do you believe the people will just go away when you agree to give them NICS?
Slow down Russ, I am answering a lot of questions right at the moment.

You give those people a little poltical victory like I already suggested. If you can't keep up with the discussion, I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

And yes, no more will be asked......until the next mass killing of children. Once we satiate the folks that are all worked-up over the killing of 20 6&7 year olds, things will calm down. Those folks normally don't care aout guns and gun-control. Giving them a little something will calm them down. Especially because they won't understand much of it.

Once those folks calm down, Feinstein, Bloomburg, et al, will have lost their political capital.

And then, the NEXT TIME there is a mass shooting, we can throw right into the anti-gunner's faces that the gun-show loop-hole is already closed. They will have one less talk-show point to blabber on about.

This will give us time to tackle the REAL ISSUES, like the state of the mental health system in this country, without having massive anti-gun legislation crammed down our throat.

Last edited by M&P15T; 12-23-2012 at 11:59..
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:48   #405
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Have you ever negotiated for anything
in your life. I don't mean a better price on your car, either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
Russ, do you believe we as firearms owners have anything to negotiate with right now?

Do you believe that we have any poltical capital to spend right now?

Please, Russ, please......tell me all about the tons of political capital we firearms owners have to negotiate with.

Tell me about how we have the ability to stop anti-giun legislation from passing right now. Tell me about how we can demand things right now.
Answer the question. You are giving negotiation advice. What experience do you have negotiating?
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:50   #406
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So, your position that we gun owners should give up and accept NICS for all gun transactions at gun shows "matters not one little bit."

Then why give it up if it is all predestined?
Read all my posts, Russ. I'm not going to keep re-answering the same questions over and over again.....re-stating the same thing over and over again.

Seriosuly, if you can't keep up, just drop it.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:53   #407
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Answer the question. You are giving negotiation advice. What experience do you have negotiating?
Years and years and years Russ.

Big kitchen and bath projects, ranging from 20-100+k

All the time Russ. Been doing it for 17+ years.

Plus I live in "the area". I have worked for hours and hours with the same type of people that will be determining the future of gun legislation in this country.

Last edited by M&P15T; 12-23-2012 at 11:55..
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:57   #408
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Here's something...

Just suppose all of us expect some type of legislation to pass, and I think we "all" acknowledge that even without support of the people that something is going to get pushed through.

Here's what we do...."We" offer training to make our schools safer, we offer something that will potentially be effective against a shooter. "We" teach people that a gun in a law abiding persons hand is a benifit to the community not a detriment.

"They" will say that "our" idea is stupid and irrational. "They" will ask for a ban on everything except guns that "hunters" would use (because without the FUDD vote they have nothing). And when it's all said and done, something will pass that's in the middle of what the two sides want.

The goal is to lose as little as possible and fight for every little inch so that "we" minimize the loss. To think that we should "throw them a bone" and hope trhey're happy is incredibly naive
You do not understand where politcal power comes from. Read ALL of my posts in this thread, especially the last few pages, and all of the quesitons you have will be answered.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:02   #409
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Years and years and years Russ.

Big kitchen and bath projects, ranging from 20-100+k

All the time Russ. Been doing it for 17+ years.

.
Remind me to call you next time I have a kitchen or bath project...I'm sure you will give me free flooring and countertops when I ask for an extra toilet paper roll
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:09   #410
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Then what, exactly, do you think we should do right now?

You want to poo-poo everything I am saying. Either because you do not like me, and/or do not like how I am saying it.

You MUST understand this:

SOMETHING WILL BE PASSED.

There can be NO QUESTION ABOUT THIS.

Yes, it absolutely IS a FOREGONE CONCLUSION.

We are now in damage control mode. In order to not take a massive beating, we need to be pro-active and be part of the legislative process, through the NRA (which, so far, is sucking the Big One).

Yes, we are most likely going to have to compromise on something.

*GASP!!*

If we don't, we are going to take a huge hit on this one.

I am not being defeatist, I am being inetlligent and understanding about the situation at hand.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:12   #411
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Slow down Russ, I am answering a lot of questions right at the moment.
Then pick up the speed. It should be difficult. You just continue using the copy/paste functions.
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You give those people a little poltical victory like I already suggested. If you can't keep up with the discussion, I'm not going to keep repeating myself.
That's all you've been doing, repeating yourself, even when asked new questions.
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And yes, no more will be asked......
I'll go back to an earlier comment, "You are naive."
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
until the next mass killing of children.
And what will they demand then after you have compromised away little parts of our Rights?
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Once we satiate the folks that are all worked-up over the killing of 20 6&7 year olds, things will calm down. Those folks normally don't care aout guns and gun-control. Giving them a little something will calm them down. Especially because they won't understand much of it.
I am very glad you stated it that way.
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Once those folks calm down, Feinstein, Bloomburg, et al, will have lost their poltical capital.
Bloomburg [sic], Feinstein et al will not let them calm down. See, et al includes the mainstream media who smell fresh blood. They are the ones who will drive gun control.

Let me repeat that for you, the mainstream media will continue to drive gun control. They will keep the people fired up.
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And then, the NEXT TIME there is a mass shooting, we can throw right into the anti-gunner's faces that the gun-show loop-hole is already closed. They will have one less talk-show point to blabber on about.
Thank you again. That definitely illustrates your lack of understanding of what is going on.
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This will give us time to tackle the REAL ISSUES, of the state of the mental health system in this country, without having massive anti-gun legislation crammed down our throat.
You have already capitulated this round of anti-gun legislation.

You never answered, "What do you believe should be given up after NICS for all sales?"

The mental health system? Do you understand the complexity of that system?
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:14   #412
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Read all my posts, Russ. I'm not going to keep re-answering the same questions over and over again.....re-stating the same thing over and over again.

Seriosuly, if you can't keep up, just drop it.
You have not definitively answered many questions.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:15   #413
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You do not understand where politcal power comes from. Read ALL of my posts in this thread, especially the last few pages, and all of the quesitons you have will be answered.
You have not addressed any of those points.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:21   #414
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Years and years and years Russ.

Big kitchen and bath projects, ranging from 20-100+k

All the time Russ. Been doing it for 17+ years.

Plus I live in "the area". I have worked for hours and hours with the same type of people that will be determining the future of gun legislation in this country.
Are you negotiating with homeowners? Contractors? Builders? Developers?

Did you ever kick a little extra to get the job?
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:29   #415
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Then pick up the speed. It should be difficult. You just continue using the copy/paste functions.That's all you've been doing, repeating yourself, even when asked new questions.
No new questions have been asked. Just the same tiring circle of not understanding the answers, and asking the questions again.

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I'll go back to an earlier comment, "You are naive." And what will they demand then after you have compromised away little parts of our Rights?I am very glad you stated it that way.Bloomburg [sic], Feinstein et al will not let them calm down. See, et al includes the mainstream media who smell fresh blood. They are the ones who will drive gun control. Let me repeat that for you, the mainstream media will continue to drive gun control. They will keep the people fired up.
**SIGH**

O.k. Russ, I'm gonna try this one more time.

The left and their media have been trying for YEARS to pass more gun-control legislation. They have presented bills, that have never gained any traction. Conversely, pro-gun interests have made gain after gain.

Before the shootings in CT.

The reaction of this Nation's populace has been staggering. This has given these idiots the poltical capital to get the votes they need to pass anti-gun legislation. The People in this country are giving them that power, and THOSE are the people we need to worry about, NOT Feinstein, the media, et al. We will have to do something to calm middle-american down.

Once we do that, things go back to normal.

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You never answered, "What do you believe should be given up after NICS for all sales?"
Again, the point would be that the left and their media would no longer have the poltical capital, the votes, to demand anything from us. We would not have to give anything, because they would not have the popular support they enjoy now.

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The mental health system? Do you understand the complexity of that system?
So you think that we should not work hard on something that would actually make a difference? That would actually so something to help us keep out rights? You think we should not care about something that could actually slow down the pace of mass murders?

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Old 12-23-2012, 12:30   #416
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You have not addressed any of those points.
Yes Russ, I have. You're just not understanding the answers.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:31   #417
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Are you negotiating with homeowners? Contractors? Builders? Developers?

Did you ever kick a little extra to get the job?
All of the above.

And of course I have kicked a bit in to get the job. It's called business.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:34   #418
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Remind me to call you next time I have a kitchen or bath project...I'm sure you will give me free flooring and countertops when I ask for an extra toilet paper roll
When one has no answers, can't use logic, they resort to personal insults.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:37   #419
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Plus I live in "the area". I have worked for hours and hours with the same type of people that will be determining the future of gun legislation in this country.
What does""the area"" mean?
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:39   #420
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What does""the area"" mean?
I....uh...can't be any clearer than my clearly-visible-for-all-to-see location.

I work with folks in the .Gov all the time.

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Old 12-23-2012, 12:46   #421
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All of the above.

And of course I have kicked a bit in to get the job. It's called business.
Did you build that bit you kicked in into the original bid?
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:46   #422
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Russ, I've got an idea.

I cannot start a poll, i don't have the ability, but you surely do.

You could start a thread with a poll, that asks one simply question:

Do you believe that there will be new gun-control legislation in the next 3 months?

No possible answers other than "Yes" or "No".

Then you can see for yourself how folks really see this situation.

Hell, it could be an eye opener for me too. It could be that most folks here DO NOT share my belief that gun-control legislation is imminent.

Then, you would have ripped the guts out of my argument, and I would have to capitualte....unless gun-control WAS passed in the next few months, despite what people here believe.

How about that? That way we could end this stupid, circle-jerk arguing and see what people here really think. Then all we would have to do is wait and see what really happens.

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Old 12-23-2012, 12:47   #423
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Did you build that bit you kicked in into the original bid?
No.

The market is too competetive. You can't start at prices that are too high, perspective customers would simply walk away. We simply give on profit margin. Period.

If you think this side-conversation is going to lead to an epiphany about the topic at hand, you're sure to be disappointed. There is no "popular opinion" or "politics" involved as additional variables to be considered in selling such projects .

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Old 12-23-2012, 12:53   #424
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I....uh...can't be any clearer than my clearly-visible-for-all-to-see location.

I work with folks in the .Gov all the time.
Would you say that the people there in Arlington who work for .gov hold the same political views as those in Central Virginia? SE Virginia? SW Virginia?

Let's go back before Sandy Hook. Would you say that Northern Virginia was more anti-gun or more pro-gun?

Are you a member of VCDL?
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:56   #425
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When one has no answers, can't use logic, they resort to personal insults.
dad,

I use logic and negotiate everyday, nor was that a personal insult; it was just showing you your approach to gun control in a business setting that I thought you'd understand (because it's your business)... This Friday I closed an account (been working on it since October) worth $1.8mm a year with a 3+2 year deal...you know what I gave them? nothing more than the guy I closed on Tuesday that was a $12,000 a year for a handshake deal. And do you know why? because I didn't offer to give him something "for free" thinking this would make him happy.

The cliffnotes of this 400+ post thread is that you think we should offer a "token gesture" of closing a loophole that you think none of care about, and that will appease the general population that think we need to do something about gun control

Most of the rest of us see this as the naive approach that it is. And your repeating that something bad is going to happen we should do this, doesn't change that something bad will probably happen, and that you're still naive.

If the left publicly came out and said "if you close the loophole, that would be the end of our demands" i would be more likely to see your point (I would still debate that we don't need to and shouldn't, but I would see your point). They want guns gone from the pubic and will not stop until that happens....handing them something just brings that a step closer. If FTF transfers at gunshows are going to go away, make them spend money and fight for this to happen, don't just hand it to them on a silver platter
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