[Lew-G17]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

Let me ask another way.

Has anyone every seen a private seller, with a table set-up inside a gunshow, selling firearms without NICS checks?

Yes many times.

One specific case was an older gentleman that had his lifle long collection of very nice .410 bore shotguns for sale. I stopped and chatted with him and this collection was part of his retirement plan. He had owned most of the guns for over 30 years.

[ShakyDave]

Ok. Just found it. The term "gunshow loophole" means any private transfer in the proposal floating around now.

[G26S239]

Originally Posted by number1gun

Well.."its my god given right, how dare you. I make money with my unregulated gun show table and I do not have to be a real Busniess person either. The hell with paying taxes and licensing." for you fine gentleman I have fired off an e-mail. I explained that one of the easiest ways to close the Gun Show loophole is to alert the IRS that it is possible many of the unlicensed unregulated dealers at Gun Shows may not be paying their taxes as they should. Maybe someone should check a few of them out. Sorry guys. Your gun show days are numbered. I will do everything I can to support shutting you down. You are part of the problem.

If someone is actually substantially engaged in the firearms business without an FFL they already are looking at problems bigger than an IRS audit. But you seem way to stupid to know that. Do you get all your firearm knowledge from CNN?

[certifiedfunds]

Originally Posted by DevilDocsGlocks

Armslist.com is a good example of the loophole at large...not saying pro or con, but its right there.

It isn't a loophole.

[concretefuzzynuts]

Originally Posted by DevilDocsGlocks

Armslist.com is a good example of the loophole at large...not saying pro or con, but its right there.

Not a loophole. More misinformation.

Purchases online must go thru a background check in person at a local FFL who receives shipment of said firearm and releases it to the purchaser.

Don't help spread lies.

[Devans0]

In my state, there is a buy permit, and a CCW permit. The CCW also acts as a buy permit. If I ever sell to a citizen, I expect to see a valid permit. No permit, no sale. If someone gets a legal permit, and has it rescinded, I won't have the electronics to check, but at least I will know that they were issued a permit within the time before expiration.
The only times that I have gotten rid of a firearm is when it didn't work. My LGS stands behind their merchandise so Both times I got my money back and then bought a reliable gun.(Glock)

[tehan2]

Originally Posted by number1gun

I explained that one of the easiest ways to close the Gun Show loophole is to alert the IRS that it is possible many of the unlicensed unregulated dealers at Gun Shows may not be paying their taxes as they should.

should my 93-year-old grandmother file a 1099 for the cabbage patch dolls she sold at her garage sale this summer?

should my 11-year-old nephew fill one out for the baseball cars he traded with one of his buddies?

It's the same thing, only the object is a firearm not a baseball card.

A private seller at a gun show is not selling NEW guns anywhere...maybe he's selling LNIB stuff but as a non FFL you can't get NEW guns from a manufacturer. They must be shipped to a FFL and purchased from them. At this point you may decide to never shoot it and sell it a month later, but it's a used gun, not new

[IQof1]

Originally Posted by tehan2

should my 93-year-old grandmother file a 1099 for the cabbage patch dolls she sold at her garage sale this summer?

should my 11-year-old nephew fill one out for the baseball cars he traded with one of his buddies?

It's the same thing, only the object is a firearm not a baseball card.

A private seller at a gun show is not selling NEW guns anywhere...maybe he's selling LNIB stuff but as a non FFL you can't get NEW guns from a manufacturer. They must be shipped to a FFL and purchased from them. At this point you may decide to never shoot it and sell it a month later, but it's a used gun, not new

i found when replying to idiots like number1gun it is best to use pretty colors for your letters. it helps remind them of crayons and thus may get their attention for longer than 2 seconds......

[Leigh]

[QUOTE=number1gun;19759877]Ok. My vote. Yes shut it down...

Your uneducated drivel speaks volumes so I won't do you the honor of quoting any more of your nonsense.

Are you that inept and socially retarded?

For the sake of your own shrinking worth as a human being, please slither back beneath that wet rock from whence you came.

In 12+ years on GT, I've yet to read such inane and psychotic ramblings.

You sir, are a complete and utter loser in life and a little scary, too.

Sadly, you don't even know it.

[IQof1]

[quote=Leigh;19765635]

Originally Posted by number1gun

Ok. My vote. Yes shut it down...

Your uneducated drivel speaks volumes so I won't do you the honor of quoting any more of your nonsense.

Are you that inept and socially retarded?

For the sake of your own shrinking worth as a human being, please slither back beneath that wet rock from whence you came.

In 12+ years on GT, I've yet to read such inane and psychotic ramblings.

You sir, are a complete and utter loser in life and a little scary, too.

Sadly, you don't even know it.

+1000000000000

[jmartin]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

Let me ask another way.

Has anyone every seen a private seller, with a table set-up inside a gunshow, selling firearms without NICS checks?

No, I have not. I attend 1 gun show a month (here in MI); ANYONE with a table selling guns must be FFL...no private sellers allowed (of guns) - private citizens can buy table space and setup to sell 2A t-shirts, prepper supplies, etc...

[jmartin]

Originally Posted by Henry's Dad

What I've never understood is this:

At it's first sale at a dealer, a handgun must enter the stream of commerce through an FFL.

So who's the moron who registers the gun in his name and then later sells it privately without an official transfer?

Gun gets used in a crime, who does it get traced back to? Last owner of record, yes?

Even if a private transfer is technically legal, why would you want that liability hanging over your head?

Same reason I've never understood the upside of straw purchases for the official buyer of record. Sure, somebody pays you to make the official buy, but then you're on the hook for whatever happens with that gun.

In MI, for a private seller pistol, either a "Pistol Sales Record" if buyer has CPL, or buyer must have "Purchase Permit" from local LEO. Once paperwork signed (by seller and buyer), the seller gets one copy (as his receipt), buyer gets one; buyer turns in other 2 to local LEO...who (supposedly) enter into LEIN system. Buyer is required to have in his possession his copy of receipt for 30 days if he has pistol on him, after that...not required. (I personally keep ALL my copies - and have in my walled all mine from all pistols I currently have)....not that I have that many

[jmartin]

Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348

While your concept is well though out and logical it will not gain traction here as you are dealing with Zealots. It's ok though as they are in the minority.

Agreed...100%

[jmartin]

Originally Posted by Leigh

"Force anyone that sets up a table...?"

Do you understand that the ONLY people who may use 4473's and NICS are actual FFL dealers, no one else; not 20 years ago, not today, and not in the future.

So what you are proposing is that only licensed dealers may set up a table (if selling firearms) inside of a gun show?

This is how it is done in MI gun shows. Not that big a deal; I've met people for FTF private sales many times at the gun show (parking lot).

However, I do think they frown on people walking around with 'for sale' sign on weapons...

[jmartin]

Originally Posted by G36's Rule

You are being hysterical. Calm down, as you don't have a clue. There is zero information that says what you are saying, except the media which is hyping their bias. In a couple weeks this will be a thought for a very small minority and those directly affected.

If, at the end of the day there are compromises to be made, then so be it. But that isn't how you start. And this tragedy isn't any different than any other. The same noise was made after Aurora.

For some reason this time some in the gun culture seem to have a measure of guilt that I don't understand.

Wow, you must have your head in the sand..."this tragedy isn't any different than any other" - Really? Do YOU believe that???? I have 15 GRANDCHILDREN! I'M PRO GUN RIGHTS...and I KNOW it is much different than anything in the past. If you can't see that, then you are missing the point entirely. EVERY media outlet lately has been anti-gun! We (and the NRA) need to stand together in this or we will lose!

[jmartin]

Originally Posted by G36's Rule

You have zero proof of that.

3 Days ago the MI governor (Rick Snyder, a REPUBLICAN) vetoed a REPUBLICAN passed bill that would have allowed CPL holders with additional training to conceal carry in (current) PFZ - such as schools, bars, theaters, sports venues.

His EXCUSE...he wanted schools to be able to opt-out of the bill - in other words, he wanted schools to be able to say - no, we think it's plenty safe here...we don't want you evil CPL gun owners around...

HOW'S THAT FOR PROOF!

[dbarry]

Originally Posted by certifiedfunds

If you think that will somehow stop the trafficking of guns to felons intent on using them to commit crimes, you haven't studied black markets well enough.

...or ever heard of prohibition. Yeah that sure worked.
...or the war on drugs. Yup - that sure worked.

[varget]

If I want to sell my own personal property I will not notify the government of my intention or the subsequent sale.
For my own personal protection I will do my best to determine if the purchaser of my property appears trustworthy. In Other Words, NOT a POLITICIAN!

[Spiffums]

Originally Posted by M&P15T

Let me ask another way.

Has anyone every seen a private seller, with a table set-up inside a gunshow, selling firearms without NICS checks?

Nope! Table = Cost Gun For Sale Sign = Free

I have never seen the so called private collections that some people see. I'm sure Wyatt of American Guns has flew in in his Chopper and snagged them up as they were unloading them from the back of the truck in the parking lot.

[FireForged]

People always talk about things that are perfectly legal and never addressed in law as loop holes. I dont think they know what a loop hole is. Typically a loop hole is a trick or misrepresentation which allows someone to bypass the true intent of a law.

If its legal for a citizen ( non dealer) to sell a firearm to another citizen, then it legal. If they never addressed that circumstance in the statute, whos fault is that? Its not a loophole.

In the 90's they called it a loophole when companies followed the AWB to the letter and were still making AR's. Its not a loophole it was simply what the law allowed.

[ref441]

Don't have time to read all the previous posts, but I attended the Pasadena (Texas) gun show today. Guns bought from licensed dealers require paperwork; guns bought from the table of a non-licensed person do not require paperwork.

Generally speaking, no one can LEGALLY sell a handgun to a non-FFL resident of another state.

I have had an FFL 32 years, 20 in Texas and 12 in Colorado.
In Colorado, ANY transfer at a gun show requires that an FFL do the paperwork. The promoter is required to have such a person (FFL) on site before the doors can be open to the public. I have filled that role. This applies even to any two people in the aisle who make a sale or a trade. Do all comply? I doubt it...

People who make frequent and repetitive purchases and sales at gun CAN find themselves in trouble. I know a young man who was arrested and all his guns and money were confiscated and never returned. He had been watched and pictures taken at various shows with multiple tables, overhead banner, cash register, collecting sales tax, and taking credit cards. He was charged with dealing without a license. It took two years to get it settled. He never served any jail time, but other penalties were assessed.

A major key involves buying an item, then selling it at the same show. It is hard to claim you are improving your private collection as an individual when you repeatedly buy and sell multiple guns at the same show.

[IllinoisGun]

Originally Posted by Chonny

A seller can setup a table of used Glocks or whatever and sell them to anyone without a background check.

This loophole should be closed and no law abiding gun owner should think otherwise. People that attain guns via this loophole and use them to commit crimes are endangering all our gun rights. Because apparently the right to bear arms is selective.

Exceedingly few "crime guns" are obtained at gun shows. It just seems that way because it's very to imagine that to be the case. Besides, there is no gun show "loophole." Merely two different groups of people complying with existing sets of laws.

What anti-gun advocates want is to FORCE private sellers to have to go through a FFL dealer and get government "approval" and paperwork/registration before a lawful transaction to occur. And criminalize them if they don't. There again setting up and manufacturing criminals out of thin air and doing very little about controlling actual criminals in the process.

[LovinGlocks]

IF they really wanted to regulate private party sales at gun shows they should set up a booth there that charges a small fee to do a background check. You'd get a piece of paper showing that you cleared the check and youd have to show that to any private seller youre buying from.

As far as private sale booths go... they do exist. Here in Indianapolis at the INDY 1500 gun show SOME tables have the "private collection" areas. These guns are about 10% more expensive than a NEW firearm. Perfect example: i went a few years back looking to buy a G26. I found one in a "private collection" USED for $550. walk 10 feet to the other side of the SAME booth and there are NEW G26s for $489.99!!

[M&P15T]

Originally Posted by Smithers

"stupidity of gun owners"

Oh... except your brilliance - noted.

Originally Posted by Smithers

According to you - Gun owners are "stupid" and have an "ignorant ass attitude".

I don't assume YOU are stupid or ignorant.

Then again, I don't have to......

Originally Posted by Smithers

You would be taken more seriously if you didn't write like
Chicken Little and throwing insults at your audience while
extolling the "WAY".

Please, watch Judge Judy reruns and calm down before you have a fit.

You are gonna sit back and play a violin while Rome burns.

I have already said it, and I'll say it again. A lot of folks here are expressing their true ignorance as to how politics work in this country. Therefore many here cannot acknowledge the avalanche of negative public opinion, and the ground-swell of support for gun control legislation that is upon us.

We WILL see the truth of my statements in the months to come. Gun control legislation WILL pass, and we could possibly have done something to avoid it. But we won't even try, due to the aforementioned, ignorant, "break but don't bend" attitude gun owners have. The NRA has already made their statement, and shown 0 understanding of the political side of things, nor shown any initiative in getting involved in the legislative process that is going to hammer our rights.

Bad things are going to happen, and gun owners will have no representation during the legislative process, because we're acting like children that refuse to do anything other than throw a tantrum shouting "NO! NO! NO!" and "MINE! MINE! MINE!"

It's both sad, and pathetic.

The anti-gunners have the political capital, the votes, and the mandate from the public to pass anti-gun legislation.

It IS going to happen.

Don't like my tone? Think I'm too arrogant?

Fine, dismiss what I'm saying and continue in your ignorant bliss because you don't like the way I say it. That will not change one single thing.

[dbarry]

Why the NRA takes the position it does...

The primary purpose of the Second Amendment isn't to preserve hunting, or sport shooting, or even self-defense, though it does protect all those things. The Founders' intent when enshrining our natural right to "keep and bear arms" was to ensure that the people could defend against a tyrannical government -- that's precisely why tyrannical governments always begin by disarming the people. Anyone who doubts this truth should ponder the awful history and the appalling body count of 20th-century communism. Mahatma Mohandas Gandhi once said, "Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." http://patriotpost.us/

Remove a freedom here, a freedom there, loose them one by one till they are gone. That's how it works. I touch that piece of metal, it doesn't make me evil. People that are evil will find a way to cause mass mayhem and murder. Ask Tim McVey. I think he did that with fuel oil and fertilizer.