GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-03-2012, 17:27   #1
Coffee Dog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 534
Dave Spaulding's video on Stopping Power

Here's a very interesting video by Dave Spaulding on big caliber versus smaller caliber and what the shooter is recommended to use for effective incapacitation.

What are your thoughts on both this video and what you
believe gives you the most stopping power regarding using a caliber that gives you a bigger hole versus using a smaller caliber that gives both a smaller hole but better accuracy?

Coffee Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 19:03   #2
bdcremer
The No SpinZone
 
bdcremer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Outside the Fruit Loop, GA
Posts: 512
Interesting video. As many of us have engaged into the caliber debates, I think one thing we all agree upon is shot placement will always supersede caliber. And I think psychologically we rely on handguns to be more reliable threat neutralizers than they literally are.

When it comes to recoil management and getting three shots in one second. This is more than likely done with typical range ammo and not with their carry load. This can change people perceptions of recoil especially with 9x19 proponents. There is some pretty hot 9x19 stuff out there (127+p+, 124+p, 115+p) that would probably recoil as much if not more than some .40 S&W loads.
__________________
Gunner's Mate 2nd Class
Glock Certified Armorer

If you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes.
bdcremer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 19:15   #3
Coffee Dog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 534
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdcremer View Post
Interesting video. As many of us have engaged into the caliber debates, I think one thing we all agree upon is shot placement will always supersede caliber. And I think psychologically we rely on handguns to be more reliable threat neutralizers than they literally are.

When it comes to recoil management and getting three shots in one second. This is more than likely done with typical range ammo and not with their carry load. This can change people perceptions of recoil especially with 9x19 proponents. There is some pretty hot 9x19 stuff out there (127+p+, 124+p, 115+p) that would probably recoil as much if not more than some .40 S&W loads.
The rapid firing I do at the range is using both JHP ammo & full metal jacket -which helps me manage all recoil.
Thank-you for your insight.
Coffee Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 10:48   #4
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Nanuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252
Great video. Dave is a well respected trainer. There is so much difference in energy and power levels between handguns that I think it is somewhat simplistic to blanket ALL handguns into one category.

I am a huge fan of the 357 Magnum having seen many people shot with it and EVERY one of them either DRT or out of the fight. I carry a 357 Sig. Three shots in under 1 second is a nice baseline.
Nanuk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 12:46   #5
Coffee Dog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 534
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
Great video. Dave is a well respected trainer. There is so much difference in energy and power levels between handguns that I think it is somewhat simplistic to blanket ALL handguns into one category.

I am a huge fan of the 357 Magnum having seen many people shot with it and EVERY one of them either DRT or out of the fight. I carry a 357 Sig. Three shots in under 1 second is a nice baseline.
Nanuk: Thanks for your post. I also respect Dave Spaulding
for his experience but grouping all calibers as one & ignoring
various energy levels is not fully understanding stopping power and the weapons effectiveness!

Last edited by Coffee Dog; 12-04-2012 at 20:30..
Coffee Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 13:23   #6
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 14,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdcremer View Post
When it comes to recoil management and getting three shots in one second. This is more than likely done with typical range ammo and not with their carry load. This can change people perceptions of recoil especially with 9x19 proponents. There is some pretty hot 9x19 stuff out there (127+p+, 124+p, 115+p) that would probably recoil as much if not more than some .40 S&W loads.
I carry 9mm 124+P and it is mild compared to 165 gr .40s.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 12-04-2012 at 13:23..
cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 14:04   #7
Berto
woo woo
 
Berto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: WA
Posts: 28,661


Great video, pretty much covers it for me.
Put them where they need to go, repeat as needed.
When it comes to the debate over service calibers, it's really a debate over millimeters here or there, for the most part, when you compare a solid load from each.
For me it's about the whole combination of weapon, caliber, ergos and portability, because it's not just one thing that determines how well I'll hit with it or how effective I can be with it. Handguns will always be like that, and likely different for one person to the next.
__________________
...Then I found a place it's dark and it's rotted
it's a cool, sweet kinda-place where the copters won't spot it.
-T Hip
Berto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 16:38   #8
Kentguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kent, OH
Posts: 841
Berto... Well said!
__________________
"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"
óRudyard Kipling
Kentguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 16:48   #9
PBR Sailor
Senior Member
 
PBR Sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: CONUS
Posts: 725
It's about shot placement and what gear selection and training you need to be able to accurately place shots in the vital areas while you are under stress.
__________________
Guerre 'A Mort
PBR Sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 17:53   #10
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Nanuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berto View Post
Great video, pretty much covers it for me.
Put them where they need to go, repeat as needed.
When it comes to the debate over service calibers, it's really a debate over millimeters here or there, for the most part, when you compare a solid load from each.
For me it's about the whole combination of weapon, caliber, ergos and portability, because it's not just one thing that determines how well I'll hit with it or how effective I can be with it. Handguns will always be like that, and likely different for one person to the next.

Good post
Nanuk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 18:08   #11
fredj338
Senior Member
 
fredj338's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: so.cal.
Posts: 21,117
Blog Entries: 3
WHo said you can't have both accuracy & larger hole? I shoot a 1911 better than my Glock. If I have to get into a fight, I hope I am carrying one of my 1911s & a spare mag. If you can shoot, you can shoot, caliber will have little to do with it. Now split times may be a bit faster w/ a lesser caliber, maybe that wins the fight maybe not, but we are talking 1/10ths of a second. I shoot with a lot of Master class IDPA guys, I only shoot expert, but they can shoot anything, so can any of us with enough practice.
__________________
"Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified".

Last edited by fredj338; 12-04-2012 at 18:10..
fredj338 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 18:22   #12
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 14,390
If you can shoot a .45 well enough and, more importantly, are the most comfortable with that then it's a no-brainer.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 12-04-2012 at 18:22..
cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 18:48   #13
WinterWizard
Senior Member
 
WinterWizard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,296
Worthless video for the most part. He compares a half-expanded, piece of crap Hydroshock to a fully expanded Black Talon. Some people can control a 9mm, .40 or a .45 all the same. They are all weak to me, even in hot +P loads. So given three calibers that I can control virtually the same, I choose the one that will give me the biggest wound channel. I do agree that shot placement and training with YOUR gun is the most important thing.

Last edited by WinterWizard; 12-04-2012 at 18:50..
WinterWizard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 18:55   #14
Paul53
Geezer Boomer
 
Paul53's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Rosa's Cantina
Posts: 3,817
Outstanding video! He's spot on about physiology, too.

As mentioned repeatedly, it's shot placement first.

Never been attacked by ballistic jello, don't care who says what caliber or round is best, FPS velocity makes me yawn. Seen enough GSW patients to know that shot placement is 99% of what matters. I guess analyzing the ballistics somehow leads to better guns and ammo for me. Reading or watching videos about it puts my feet to sleep.




IMHO.
__________________
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again."


Last edited by Paul53; 12-04-2012 at 19:16..
Paul53 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 19:12   #15
Tiro Fijo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5,009
Shot placement is usually the first thing to go out the window when the ballon goes up. The difference between shot placement at the shooting range & a gunfight is like the difference between driving to the local mall and driving in the Indy 500. Both are forms of driving but one is slightly more intense with a far greater chance of error leading to grave injury. There's also a good looking dame to give you a kiss if you win.
Tiro Fijo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 19:24   #16
Paul53
Geezer Boomer
 
Paul53's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Rosa's Cantina
Posts: 3,817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
Shot placement is usually the first thing to go out the window when the ballon goes up. The difference between shot placement at the shooting range & a gunfight is like the difference between driving to the local mall and driving in the Indy 500. Both are forms of driving but one is slightly more intense with a far greater chance of error leading to grave injury. There's also a good looking dame to give you a kiss if you win.
So if shot placement is iffy, weapon control and repeat shots are needed to save your bacon. As for the dame, Erika and the gals on the Glock team are nice eye candy, the other bimbos not so much. I'd want a kiss from Hitchcock45 first!
__________________
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again."

Paul53 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 20:32   #17
Coffee Dog
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 534
Shoot the caliber you shoot best & train, train and train
and your shot placement will be just fine.
Coffee Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2012, 07:26   #18
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 14,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterWizard View Post
Some people can control a 9mm, .40 or a .45 all the same.
Some, most not.

The main point of the video, IMO, is to point out how small the critical area on the body really is and that a millimeter or two of bullet diameter is not going to matter. You either put the shot into the box or you don't.
cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 09:16   #19
number1gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 201
E=MCsquared. Energy is energy regardless of caliber. Way to many variables at the Terminal Balistics end to ever have a definable .....this is the one. Find what you shoot well and stick with it. Like said before. The only reason to carry a handgun is because it is not practical to carry a rifle or shotgun most of the time.
number1gun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 10:39   #20
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 15,836
Great video. It shows (in a subtle way) the superiority of the .45 ACP round. Did you see the big difference in wound channel volume for the .45 over the .40 and 9mm?
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 11:28   #21
English
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: London
Posts: 5,275
It is the same old fallacy and he even shows the information that demostrates that it is a fallacy. He show the diameter of various bullets and he show pictures of permanent cavities. The body is affected by the permanent cavity, and the temporary cavity, and it does not matter what size of bullet creates it. Then he says that they all penetrate about the same without noting that the penetration depends on the frontal area and the kinetic energy of the bullet.

The simple physics is that the width of damage is approximately proportional to the square of the bullet speed and its frontal area at any point along its path. At its simplest, the total damage is proportional to the bullet's KE and provided that is not produced with too low a weight and too high a velocity, that is proprtional to average rate of incapacitation if we neglect things like remote brain trauma. So a better bullet with a better load is little to do with the millimeter or two of difference in bullet diameter relative to the so called vital area and almost everything to do with the width of damage relative o the vital area. As his diagram shows, and it is a poor and dated picture, we are looking at a cross sectional area of damage which is about twice as wide and therefore is about 4 times the cross sectional are of damage between worst and best. He also fails to point out that the 357SIG has a cavity very similar to the .45 with the .40S&W a little behind. The 9mm is very poor in comparison and the 147gn 9mm even more so.

If each shot is doing substantially more damage but only adds a little to the split time it isn't hard to choose something other than 9mm if the shooter can shoot it well enough.

English
English is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 11:56   #22
Berto
woo woo
 
Berto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: WA
Posts: 28,661


Thanks for the cerebral insight, English.
__________________
...Then I found a place it's dark and it's rotted
it's a cool, sweet kinda-place where the copters won't spot it.
-T Hip
Berto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 12:38   #23
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 14,390
It's all about hitting the right spot. If you do, it doesn't matter what caliber it is. If you don't, keep shooting.

If each shot is doing substantially more damage but only adds a little to the split time it isn't hard to choose something other than 9mm if the shooter can shoot it well enough.

Well there's the rubs. Define "well enough". And is adding even "a little" to the split time going to matter? Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't.

It's amazing how some people think a 124gr 9mm going 1250 fps is somehow so inferior but the same bullet going 1350 fps is king of the world.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 12-06-2012 at 12:44..
cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 13:02   #24
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 14,390
Gold Dots

9mm 124+P: .614" expansion, 13.25" penetration
.45 230gr: .707" expansion, 12.5" penetration



Draw your own conclusions on effectiveness.
cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 14:49   #25
English
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: London
Posts: 5,275
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
....
It's amazing how some people think a 124gr 9mm going 1250 fps is somehow so inferior but the same bullet going 1350 fps is king of the world.
Well... it isn't the king of the world but it is 1/6th or 16.64% more energy. Not a major difference but not a minor difference either. To put it inot perspective, it is more than the difference in diameter between a 9mm and a .40S&W and more than the difference between a 40S&W and a .45, but less than the difference between a 9mm and a .45.

If we compare it to a 9mm at 1450 fps, namely a 357SIG, then you have a more than 35% increase in KE over the 1250fps 9mm and that is quite a big step up for about a 17% in recoil. Then you get to the first shot in just the same time, do 35% more damage with that shot and your split time changes from, say. 0.2 to 0.217 seconds to the second shot.

For many this will make practice harder but in a fight no one will flinch or worry about the recoil. As I keep saying, practice mainly with 9mm and carry something stronger.

English
English is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 13:35.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,361
384 Members
977 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42