Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-16-2013, 04:44   #1
tercel89
Senior Member
 
tercel89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tn
Posts: 3,422
Gen 4 question on recoil assembly

Will a regular (gen 3 ) recoil spring assembly work in a Gen 4 G19 , 17,22,23 ?
tercel89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 05:03   #2
Angel King
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Between Heaven and Hell
Posts: 420
No, the hole in the front of a gen4 slide is too large and a gen3 RSA will pass through it.
__________________
An eagle does not capture flys
Angel King is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 05:14   #3
tercel89
Senior Member
 
tercel89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tn
Posts: 3,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAHLAVAN View Post
No, the hole in the front of a gen4 slide is too large and a gen3 RSA will pass through it.
Ok thanks
tercel89 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 10:06   #4
cciman
Senior Member
 
cciman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 2,538
Yes you can. You will need a washer adapter for the front of the slide. These can be found on ebay or elsewhere. Yes and it does change ejection behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tercel89 View Post
Will a regular (gen 3 ) recoil spring assembly work in a Gen 4 G19 , 17,22,23 ?
cciman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 11:06   #5
voyager4520
-----
 
voyager4520's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: SE Colorado
Posts: 8,581
Here's one such adapter washer that will allow you to use a Gen3 recoil assembly in a Gen4:
http://glockparts.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=155988&CAT=737

Many manufacturers make their own such adapter washers.

I found this idea rather interesting though, an aftermarket guide rod with a single recoil spring made to fit a Gen4:
http://glockparts.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=820780&CAT=737
__________________
G23 G27
voyager4520 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 14:56   #6
Angel King
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Between Heaven and Hell
Posts: 420
I wasn't aware of this. I would however think twice about doing this. The newer, post July 2011 RSA's work fine as intended.

It seams to me these aftermarket adaptations were a result of companies jumping on the gen4 RSA issue bandwagon and trying to make a quick buck before Glock fixed the issue.

Today, I don't see the need.
__________________
An eagle does not capture flys

Last edited by Angel King; 01-16-2013 at 15:00..
Angel King is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 17:10   #7
cciman
Senior Member
 
cciman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 2,538
The NEED is if you intend to "tune" your RSA's with different spring weights, or if you are experiencing BTF issues, or if you want to shoot 115 gr. like the Gen3's do.

AND/OR go to a single solid metal rod system (titanium, tungsten, stainless)

Aftermarket springs are much better quality springs than the flat Glock springs, and they are cheap once you have invested in the rod.

There is no advantage of the Gen4 TRIPLE spring RSA over a traditional single spring/rod setup-- single rod and spring makes it simpler, less prone to fail.

There are a few posts where the double system has binded or locked up.

Last edited by cciman; 01-16-2013 at 20:53..
cciman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 17:17   #8
Angel King
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Between Heaven and Hell
Posts: 420
Thanks for the explanation.
__________________
An eagle does not capture flys
Angel King is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 18:02   #9
sgt rock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: michigan
Posts: 357
Quote:
Originally Posted by cciman View Post
The NEED is if you intend to "tune" your RSA's with different spring weights, or if you are experiencing BTF issues, or if you want to shoot 115 gr. like the Gen3's do.

AND/OR go to a single solid metal rod system (titanium, tungsten, stainless)

Aftermarket springs are much better quality springs than the flat Glock springs, and they are cheap once you have invested in the rod.

There is no advantage of the Gen4 double spring RSA over a traditional single spring/rod setup-- single rod and spring makes it simpler, less prone to fail.

There are a few posts where the double system has binded or locked up.
No advantage at all ? not one ? can you provide some data to back that up ?
sgt rock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 19:14   #10
nraman
Senior Member
 
nraman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,344
My Gen 4 G22 has a softer recoil than my Gen 3 did. I consider it an advantage.
__________________
Μολών λαβέ
nraman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 19:25   #11
cciman
Senior Member
 
cciman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 2,538
NO, can you provide data the other direction, other than anecdotes of perceived recoil reduction, and cool factor. A single spring recoil assembly works just as well as the double, there are no advantages that I can conceive in a handgun, just downsides as mentioned in the post.

"Perceived" recoil is not eligible. Don't get me wrong- I do own gen 4 guns, as well as G26, G30, and G29, I know what the recoil feels like compared to my single spring guns-- but I don't perceive the TRIPLE recoil spring giving any advantage...more points for disadvantage than advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgt rock View Post
No advantage at all ? not one ? can you provide some data to back that up ?

Last edited by cciman; 01-16-2013 at 20:52..
cciman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 20:13   #12
AustinTx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tx
Posts: 8,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by cciman View Post
Yes and it does change ejection behavior.
That is very interesting. I would not have thought, there would be any difference assuming the springs are the same strength.
AustinTx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 20:38   #13
Angel King
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Between Heaven and Hell
Posts: 420
CCI, the reduced recoil is not perceived. At least in my two examples. It's noticeable.
__________________
An eagle does not capture flys
Angel King is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 20:44   #14
cciman
Senior Member
 
cciman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 2,538
The Gen4 Glock 19 spring is not the same "strength" as the Gen3 Glock 19 single spring. Because it is also a TRIPLE spring assembly (3 springs), the physics are slightly different also - as discovered by the initial problems with the G4 Glock 19.

It is quite the complex spring assembly. but sometimes simple is better .

Again with a washer adapter, and a aftermarket rod, one has the ability to vary the spring characteristics IF one were having ejection issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinTx View Post
That is very interesting. I would not have thought, there would be any difference assuming the springs are the same strength.

Last edited by cciman; 01-16-2013 at 20:52..
cciman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 20:50   #15
cciman
Senior Member
 
cciman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 2,538
Sorry, I don't notice a recoil difference between my Gen4 and my Gen3 (stock springs) guns. How are you sure its not the grip feel affecting your perception?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAHLAVAN View Post
CCI, the reduced recoil is not perceived. At least in my two examples. It's noticeable.
cciman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 20:57   #16
ram1000
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Northeast Oregon
Posts: 50
I'm guessing that Glock is using the dual spring assembly because it allows a wider range of effect whereas it is the best of both worlds: on the one hand it can handle heavier loads than a single spring while at the same time being able to handle softer loads since two springs don't have to be the same rate. Like I said just a guess but seems credible in terms of physics.
BTY I am using an adapted SS rod and single spring assembly from the Glockstore. So far no negative effects but I have only ran a box of FMJ through the gun. I went this route because I intend to use 45 Super in the gun occasionally, and also replaced the barrel with a LW threaded barrel.

Last edited by ram1000; 01-16-2013 at 20:59..
ram1000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 21:06   #17
Angel King
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Between Heaven and Hell
Posts: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by cciman View Post
Sorry, I don't notice a recoil difference between my Gen4 and my Gen3 (stock springs) guns. How are you sure its not the grip feel affecting your perception?
That's why I played it safe by saying my examples of the Gen3 and 4 G22. Maybe not all. And not speaking of the 9mm. Just .40

As far as how I know, you'll just have to take my word for it. Been shooting the gen3 for ten years or so and shot the gen4 today back to back.

It's physics, a very simplified view is, the harder that slide slams back, the more felt recoil. Just pull back both slides and see which one requires more force. Both being new springs.

But, the other side of the coin is, the heavier spring needs a more stout grip to function and can make an ammo sensitive gun.
__________________
An eagle does not capture flys
Angel King is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2013, 10:22   #18
nraman
Senior Member
 
nraman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,344
Quote:
Originally Posted by cciman View Post
NO, can you provide data the other direction, other than anecdotes of perceived recoil reduction, and cool factor. A single spring recoil assembly works just as well as the double, there are no advantages that I can conceive in a handgun, just downsides as mentioned in the post.
I assume that you can provide data that a single spring works just as well as a double.

I have no doubt that it made a difference in the G22. Many forum members reported the same.
It is not anecdotal when you loose the snappiness inherent in the G22 Gen 3.
__________________
Μολών λαβέ
nraman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2013, 11:02   #19
cciman
Senior Member
 
cciman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 2,538
It is counterintuitive: if you read most tutorials on recoil spring, stronger springs give MORE shooter perceived recoil. It is a common mistake that shooters to go to a 'heavier" spring when shooting heavier loads for the purpose of "reducing" recoil. You only go to a heavier spring to preserve the gun mechanicals-- on a Glock this is irrelevant, on a tuned 1911, that might make more sense.

Spring considerations do not occur in a vacuum- but must take into consideration the ammo load. The LIGHTER the spring the WIDER the ammo variation tolerance (ie less probability of ammo cycling failure). The lighter the spring, the farther the brass flies. (Makes it harder for handloaders to find - thus they may want to go to a heavier spring to tune where their ejected brass lands).

The heavier the spring, the more important the ammo load factors into the cycling (ie narrower ammo variation tolerance, the higher the probability of ammo cycling failure). The heavier the spring the shorter the ejection trajectory. Too strong and the brass just barely rolls out or hits you in the face--- worse case gun fails to cycle. This is evident in Glock's recent foray into the multi spring "improvement".

Here is a simple article: http://www.custom-glock.com/springtech.html You can google more if you want more.

The subject on recoil is quite complex. Psychology has as much to do with it as physics. We are conditioned to move our hands arms and shoulders even when the gun does not even go off-- this contributes to the recoil-- this is seen in simple FTF drills (load a dummy round somewhere in a magazine). We are conditioned by hollywood and ourselves. If you shoot 1000 rounds of .40SW in a weekend course- the recoil at the beginning of the weekend is very stout compared to the end of the weekend-- where you don't notice the gun going off.

Changing the grip texture or grip size makes a large difference in perceived recoil. This is where Glock should have stopped.
cciman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2013, 11:11   #20
cciman
Senior Member
 
cciman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 2,538
Back to the subject: Yes you can run a Gen 3 RSA in a Gen4, with an adapter device (machined washer).

If you are one of those with a chronic BTF or 115gr failure to cycle Gen4 problem, this is the first thing I would do. That's just my opinion.
cciman is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:20.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 621
144 Members
477 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31