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Old 12-10-2012, 07:07   #201
Dennis in MA
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One nukulur arson'll pleeze.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:45   #202
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The NFA is unconstitutional, but sadly it is what our nanny state society has deemed an acceptable loss of liberty.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:24   #203
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Yeah, that's why we've been fighting goat herders for the last 11 years and we'll be leaving with our tail between our legs.
I hear the argument that the military will prevail quickly over any type of insurrection and unfortunately I don't hear many counter with your response because it's simple but spot on. We've not fared so well over the years against guerilla tactics and I think there will be enough folks in the crowd to realize going head on against a conventional force will be futile.

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Old 12-10-2012, 11:02   #204
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How about bombs? Cannons? RPG's?

They are "arms".
Ironically yes they are covered as arms. Many of our founding fathers had artillery pieces in their private possession, both before and after the war. I am in the group of no infringement at all and that if a person can afford to purchase said items AND meets the Constitutional requirements of ownership... let them have it.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:03   #205
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The NFA is unconstitutional, but sadly it is what our nanny state society has deemed an acceptable loss of liberty.
One the founding fathers would have railed against and not allowed to pass.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:10   #206
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Isn't the NFA based on the wishes of the people back in 1934? They were tired of all the gangster violence (drive-by shootings with Tommy guns and sawed-off shotguns, etc.) and wanted something done about it. If I've got this right (and I'm not saying that I do) then, with all due respect, why are we blaming the Government for something we wanted?
The gangster violence that was created due to prohibition. The field for corruption was sewn by denial of a recreation. The first gangsters were the rum runners that were making "illegal" alcohol and selling it. Once the cities thugs saw the money potential they jumped on the band wagon. And as with any form of prohibition you get escalation. Hell, look at the war on drugs. Look at how well that's going for the government.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:12   #207
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RICO laws were very effective at combating organized crime. The mafia simply does not exist as it once did in major cities.
Actually with the repealing of prohibition that cut the cash cow until the war on drugs. Now we have even more violent gangs than before. The Mafia still exists, they just moved to less volatile and noticeable activities. The war against the mafia isn't over... no, it's worse now than ever before.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:16   #208
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Much more balanced than today, I would say equipment was respectfully balanced between the two parties of the Revolution overall. Nothing on the battlefield (land or sea) was beyond the ability of the militia to realistically counter with the weapons they had. Today that is not the case, with armored warships, aircraft and armored vehicles as well as long range artillery it is a entirely different type of warfare.

In those days you always saw your opponent in battle, not these days.
And yet we have been engaged for over 10 years in combat against an organized hit and run militia... and our military (which is top notch) still hasn't been able to completely beat them. And yes, we have all the cool toys that are devastating, but still we lose troops to cave dwellers that still wipe their butts with their hands. And to top it off... after 10 years they are still fighting us.
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:09   #209
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And yet we have been engaged for over 10 years in combat against an organized hit and run militia... and our military (which is top notch) still hasn't been able to completely beat them. And yes, we have all the cool toys that are devastating, but still we lose troops to cave dwellers that still wipe their butts with their hands. And to top it off... after 10 years they are still fighting us.

Agreed, the only difference is they are committed 100 per cent to their cause and have no rules of engagement and politicians telling them what they can and cannot do.
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:28   #210
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Agreed, the only difference is they are committed 100 per cent to their cause and have no rules of engagement and politicians telling them what they can and cannot do.
And that is different from any other rebellion/insurrection how?
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:57   #211
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And that is different from any other rebellion/insurrection how?

Oh it is not, statement was pertaining to the rules and regulation that we are under due to our societies social views by some on how to fight a war and world sentiment against us and not being able to utilize all of our capabilities in technology without world out cry both here and abroad, that being the reason our men are still there and being killed.

Ive seen this before in the middle and late 60s.

Last edited by kat1950; 12-10-2012 at 13:03..
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Old 12-10-2012, 13:18   #212
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Oh it is not, statement was pertaining to the rules and regulation that we are under due to our societies social views by some on how to fight a war and world sentiment against us and not being able to utilize all of our capabilities in technology without world out cry both here and abroad, that being the reason our men are still there and being killed.

Ive seen this before in the middle and late 60s.
I hear what you are saying, and I am not arguing in that vein. But a point I would like to make is this... Russia went in without the restraint we are showing (yes I know they are not on our level in many aspects, but when compared to the people they were fighting... oh, the same ones we are!) and after 10 years they pulled out having failed in conquering the same dirt dwellers.

History has a lot of powerful empires that were technically superior eventually losing to an inferior enemy. Back to Russia again, WWII against the Germans, yes, the Russian winter had a lot to do with it, but even so, the Russians did a pretty damn good job against a superior fighting force that was already battle hardened.
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Old 12-10-2012, 13:54   #213
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[/SIZE]

The NFA is an infringement.
Of course it is... And?

The list of constitutionally legal laws and actions by our government is a whole lot shorter than the illegal ones.

"Might makes right" (with the Feds holding the "might") is the true law of our land.
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Old 12-10-2012, 16:09   #214
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One nukulur arson'll pleeze.
MA? Isn't that the state where you are allowed a sling shot with one round to lob from it?
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Old 12-10-2012, 16:11   #215
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Agreed, the only difference is they are committed 100 per cent to their cause and have no rules of engagement and politicians telling them what they can and cannot do.
Yup, comprised of many rich morons who have never had a conflict other than raging at the waitress for not providing a chilled salad fork.
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Old 12-10-2012, 18:37   #216
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Yup, comprised of many rich morons who have never had a conflict other than raging at the waitress for not providing a chilled salad fork.
I enjoy how you painted me as some sort of silver spoon for wanting some minimal regulation, found out I've spent most of my life with, in all likelihood, much less than you, totally ignored being wrong, and continued painting politicians and/or people who want any sort of regulation as gated community elites. Occupy Glocktalk, much?

I agree that politicians tend to be trash, but you seem bound and determined to make it a class or ideology issue instead of a discussion on the merits.
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Old 12-10-2012, 18:41   #217
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Originally Posted by Glock20 10mm View Post
And yet we have been engaged for over 10 years in combat against an organized hit and run militia... and our military (which is top notch) still hasn't been able to completely beat them. And yes, we have all the cool toys that are devastating, but still we lose troops to cave dwellers that still wipe their butts with their hands. And to top it off... after 10 years they are still fighting us.
So you agree that we don't need the types of weapon systems being debated to counter a federal government out of control? See we agree after all

Honestly we are not losing (if indeed we are) because of the enemy we face but because of the restraints put on our boys by D.C. via the American people and press. So the real question is would those same restraints be in place in some kind of 2nd American Civil War? If not then my statement still it true IMO. Who knows maybe it would be a war of eradication or just a policing action.

My point was and is that the ideal that average folks need heavy weapon system to counter the U.S. Govt is a bit far fetched to me. But ignore me, it is way more far fetched to the average American so as a point of debate in favor of removing the NFA and all like restrictions it is pointless. That is not going to move the needle of public opinion at all IMO. Those advocating such things better come up with a more realistic reason IMO or the public debate (which is the one that really matters) is over before it began.

Last edited by Ruggles; 12-10-2012 at 18:48..
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Old 12-10-2012, 18:56   #218
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Governments have proved themselves by killing far more people than any individual nutjob with any individual weapon.

I notice that you ignored my question of why you cared if a guy in Nevada with 1000 acres had RPGs and shot his Cacti with them everyday?

I have offered compromises on how people could have their Constitutional allowed arms, and still protect the public safety. Your compromises focus on being as restrictive as practical. Mine focus on responsible use and storage.

The differences between explosives, and atomic bombs and toxins (chemical and biological) is that explosives have a defined and controllable zone of destruction, just like firearms. Atomic bombs and toxins (air or water borne) do not. The toxins go where ever the wind and water take them. Same with atomic fallout. Atomic bombs take considerable maintenance as well.

No on as far as I has said that one should be able to buy any type of explosive anywhere no matter your age. Maybe some do, I don't

However you should know one gallon of gasoline has the explosive power of 6 sticks of Dynamite. Do you feel safer with your car parked in your garage?

Our Constitution is about freedoms from government restrictions because of what we might do. It is about allowing us freedoms until we DO something to hurt others, THEN punishing us.

If you are a man, you probably have a male sex organ. If so I think you should be put in jail or have it removed so you won't rape hundreds of women. It's for the women and the children, so you should volunteer for it. Probably should do the same with your hands. That way you couldn't hold a gun or a knife that you could kill 10's or hundred of people. Do it for the children.

You want protection from what people might do. I want protection from accidents. Deliberate acts cannot reliably be stopped over time. With enough persistent people and enough time they will succeed.

I personally think we should mandate better driver training. It would likely save more lives that would be lost by eliminating the NFA. I am willing to take that trade-off.


Adult can rationalize, we can use that ability to set laws and limits to minimize issues when 360,000,000 live together. It does not have to be all or none as you seem to imply, the right place can be in the middle. You know compromise, kinda like the Founders did with the creation of the very documents you keep referring to as proof that you should not have to compromise.

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Old 12-10-2012, 19:03   #219
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I guess if a time ever comes when the American people need the weapons that we cannot legally have, as unconstitutional as that may be, I hear you can get anything you need from Holder's Gun Shop.


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Old 12-10-2012, 19:10   #220
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Get the ACLU to plead your case.

BTW i agree with OP

But it will never change.
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Old 12-10-2012, 19:10   #221
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I guess if a time ever comes when the American people need the weapons that we cannot legally have, as unconstitutional as that may be, I hear you can get anything you need from Holder's Gun Shop.


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Or from the federal armories spread across all 50 states. Seem to work in the 1860s pretty well
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Old 12-10-2012, 19:12   #222
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One nukulur arson'll pleeze.
See that is one manual I would take the time to sit down and read unlike the ones that never leave the case the gun came in.
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Old 12-11-2012, 17:00   #223
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Originally Posted by LawScholar View Post
I enjoy how you painted me as some sort of silver spoon for wanting some minimal regulation, found out I've spent most of my life with, in all likelihood, much less than you, totally ignored being wrong, and continued painting politicians and/or people who want any sort of regulation as gated community elites. Occupy Glocktalk, much?

I agree that politicians tend to be trash, but you seem bound and determined to make it a class or ideology issue instead of a discussion on the merits.
Ms. Fienstein is that you? I was talking about CONGRESS directing war. I thought attorneys were supposed to have a superior reading comprehension.
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Old 12-11-2012, 19:17   #224
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MA? Isn't that the state where you are allowed a sling shot with one round to lob from it?

Actually it appears that ~ 3.8% of the population of Massachusetts has a carry permit while ~2% of the population of Texas has a permit. Unless my math is off.


http://legallyarmed.com/ccw_statistics.htm
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Old 12-11-2012, 19:19   #225
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I hear the argument that the military will prevail quickly over any type of insurrection and unfortunately I don't hear many counter with your response because it's simple but spot on. We've not fared so well over the years against guerilla tactics and I think there will be enough folks in the crowd to realize going head on against a conventional force will be futile.
I have to say straight out that the military cannot truly win against armed citizens because people such as in foreign lands just step out the door and shoot you.
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