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Old 12-09-2012, 07:10   #51
nmstew
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I fall into the camp of NFA laws are just plain nonsense, as I posted before.

What can we do about it? How do we change it so the .gov no longer has interest in how long your barrel is or how many rounds you can fire?

I heard at the last gun show there is a man who is founding a company that will build full auto sears. His legal premise is that ATF laws are federal commerce laws and that as long as his customers buy and keep his goods in TX, the feds can't touch him. Not sure that will work, but the point still stands, how do we get these laws changed?
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:13   #52
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I've always hated those NFA bastards.

http://www.nfaonline.org/

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Old 12-09-2012, 08:06   #53
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Again, I'll state the obvious, most of the people posting here are socialists and statists at heart. They're happy with restrictions the gov. has set for them and are in no hurry to get them changed for the better.

For them, it's easier to live a life of oppression than the relentless effort to maintain liberty and freedom.



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Clyde
Thanks for the update Mr Freedom. Good to know you view of liberty & freedom is that either we agree with you or we are socialist.
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:12   #54
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No offense but that is way to simplistic. The weapons systems of then are not the weapon system of now. Drive down to the local megamart store, look around and tell me you want all of those folks with free access to some RPG7s, SA7s, maybe a surplus T-60, or some nice chemical weapions...or how about your neighbor storing a half dozen 500lb bombs in his garage?

Also the militia of the 1700s were on par with the military arms of the day as the musket and cannon were much more basic weapons than today. That type of balance between the civilian and military of today is simple not achievable. Using it as a point of debate is simply outdated IMO.
So your for bans I see.........how about not letting those people vote either? You agree with the aint's that it's not a right because you want to grant it like a privilege to some.
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:42   #55
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i love restictions when it keeps the idiot kid that cant get my order right at starbucks from owning a anti-tank weapon..
So tell me O oppressed one, do you think the idiots are just in society as a whole? If so, then do you also think that percentage of idiots in the gen. pop. also manages to join our armed forces with access to those, and much more?

I was just talking to some vets yesterday about this, and how just a few years ago, they were letting people in with ASVAB scores that would surprise you.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:44   #56
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Thanks for the update Mr Freedom. Good to know you view of liberty & freedom is that either we agree with you or we are socialist.
Yea, pretty much, then again, I think more like Thomas Paine than I do Stalin or Lenin.

Makes me think of what our Founding Fathers would say about "too much liberty".

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

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Old 12-09-2012, 09:03   #57
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Is it not somewhat ironic that in countries we free, such as Iraq and Afganistan we allow households to keep unmodifed AKs? Somehow we realize the need for personal responsibility and safety there but question it here


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Old 12-09-2012, 09:08   #58
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Go to peopleofwalmart.com. If you can find me ten people you'd honestly be okay owning C4 and RPG7s unregulated, I'll agree with repealing the NFA.

There's a huge missing element from back in the day - responsibility.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:10   #59
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Go to peopleofwalmart.com. If you can find me ten people you'd honestly be okay owning C4 and RPG7s unregulated, I'll agree with repealing the NFA.

There's a huge missing element from back in the day - responsibility.
And let me tell you why, because gov. stepped into it. Now, people have become so soft they've abdicated their personal security and responsibilities.

Tell me it ain't so

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

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Old 12-09-2012, 09:11   #60
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Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor View Post
And let me tell you why, because gov. stepped into it. Now, people have become so soft they've abdicated their personal security and responsibilities.

Tell me it ain't so

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

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That might well be true, but I can't see his giving those people crates of hand grenades goes anywhere but horrifying destruction on a mass scale.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:14   #61
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That might well be true, but I can't see his giving those people crates of hand grenades goes anywhere but horrifying destruction on a mass scale.
So, just like I said, you're content with the oppression simply because you've been conditioned to think so. Because it's already happened, then we now have to keep the status quo???

This is truly a circuitous debate point. It's the equivalent of saying, "Well, the barn door was open and the horse got out", but never bothering to retrieve the lost horse.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:19   #62
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Is it not somewhat ironic that in countries we free, such as Iraq and Afganistan we allow households to keep unmodifed AKs? Somehow we realize the need for personal responsibility and safety there but question it here


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Or Switzerhland where adults are required to own a pistol and a fully automatic rifle. [sarcasimon] I hear the crime rate and death toll is off the hook.[/sarcasim off]

Or how about Israel? They seem to be doing okay with their citizens owning fully automatic Uzis.

It is only the "land of the free" who guaranteed that freedom in the Constitution and didn't even have a standing full time army until 1812, but relied on its citizen army the same as Switzerland does.

But, now were are all too stupid to be trusted with our own Second Amendment?

I say bring back the silencers, short barreled rifles, shotguns, and fully automatic weapons. They are all out there. The only forlks worried about all the tax stamps, red tape, and cumbersome legislation about storage or the folks who obey the law and have a monumental ammount of income to afford the whole mess.

The criminals on the other hand? They already have all these.

We hurtle multi-ton vehicles at break neck speeds at each other all over the United States with a lot of barely literate people behind the wheel. There are far more abuses, fatalties, and injuries with those instruments than there are with firerams. Yet, our own government doesn't trust us with our own Second Amendment rights?
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:19   #63
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How about bombs? Cannons? RPG's?

They are "arms".
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Artillery? Shoulder fired missles? Grenades? Claymores?
Most definitely.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:55   #64
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Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor View Post
Yea, pretty much, then again, I think more like Thomas Paine than I do Stalin or Lenin.

Makes me think of what our Founding Fathers would say about "too much liberty".

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
The Founding Fathers did not agreed with each other 100% and debated fiercely the role of government in peoples life. Debates like this have always been with us and always should. Nothing un-American or communist about doing that friend.

Stalin or Lenin, extreme reach between what is being discussed here and that IMO. I am glad that the vast majority of folks in America are more open minded than that. Again this mindset of agree with me totally or your a "__________" is simplistic at best.

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Old 12-09-2012, 10:00   #65
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And let me tell you why, because gov. stepped into it. Now, people have become so soft they've abdicated their personal security and responsibilities.

Tell me it ain't so

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
It ain't so.

The rise of CCW nationwide in the last 20 years is proof of that. As it the rise in firearm ownership. Good Lord man you can buy a AR15 ("evil" 30 round mag and all) at Wal-Mart with you Frosted Flakes these days. Hardly a nation abdicating their personal security and responsibility.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:01   #66
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The Founding Fathers did not agreed with each other 100% and debated fiercely the role of government in peoples life. Debates like this have always been with us and always should. Nothing un-American or communist about doing that friend.

Stalin or Lenin, extreme reach between what is being discussed here and that IMO. I am glad that the vast majority of folks in America are more open minded than that. Again this mindset of agree with me totally or your a "__________" is simplistic at best.
Won't argue the point about the FF's because it's true. They did however, bring about a new era of liberty and freedom when they finally got it all down on paper, then signed it.

The IRS didn't exist when the FF's were alive, so, now that it's established, should we also let them run roughshod over us with impunity as they do now??

It's the same argument.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

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Old 12-09-2012, 10:02   #67
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The Founding Fathers did not agreed with each other 100% and debated fiercely the role of government in peoples life. Debates like this have always been with us and always should. Nothing un-American or communist about doing that friend.

Stalin or Lenin, extreme reach between what is being discussed here and that IMO. I am glad that the vast majority of folks in America are more open minded than that. Again this mindset of agree with me totally or your a "__________" is simplistic at best.
This isn't mentioned enough. The Founding Fathers were not some solid block of the same opinions. In fact the Constitution as drafted did not even HAVE a bill of rights, they threw it in at the last minute to appease the Antifederalists.

"Shall not be infringed" without anything else is an argument as devoid of reason and logic as "Guns kill people".

I don't consider being okay with heavier regulations on full-auto and explosives "used to the oppression", I consider it well-reasoned restriction just like background checks. Yeah, if we must go there, I trust my neighbors with AR-15s and Glocks, but not with Stingers and RPG-7s. People are pretty darn stupid these days, they can't control their waistlines or balance a checkbook. At a certain point we have to step back from the hard line and realize the total absurdity of privately owned nukes and 155mm artillery.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:03   #68
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It ain't so.

The rise of CCW nationwide in the last 20 years is proof of that. As it the rise in firearm ownership. Good Lord man you can buy a AR15 ("evil" 30 round mag and all) at Wal-Mart with you Frosted Flakes these days. Hardly a nation abdicating their personal security and responsibility.
But what's the actual percentage of citizens exercising this "limited" and "infringed" right we have???

C'mon, don't be coy, we know that most are not gun owners, most gun sales are to people who already own a multitude of firearms already.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:06   #69
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So your for bans I see.........how about not letting those people vote either? You agree with the aint's that it's not a right because you want to grant it like a privilege to some.
Where does voting come into this debate? What are you referring to in this debate? Who are "those people" you reference?

Who is talking about it being a privilege for "some"? You have the same rights as anyone else regarding this unless you did something to lose them. And where did I advocate bans? I am simply saying and will continue to say that the 2nd A is no more all inclusive than the 1st A.

It all boils down to how you define "Arms" in the 2nd A, some think it means anything, others like me think it is limited in it's meaning. As the men who wrote it are all dead it has been and will continue to be a ongoing debate I guess.

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Old 12-09-2012, 10:13   #70
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Dupe Post.

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Old 12-09-2012, 10:17   #71
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This isn't mentioned enough. The Founding Fathers were not some solid block of the same opinions. In fact the Constitution as drafted did not even HAVE a bill of rights, they threw it in at the last minute to appease the Antifederalists.
Is this your way of minimizing the Bill of Rights as vestigle?

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"Shall not be infringed" without anything else is an argument as devoid of reason and logic as "Guns kill people".
I know, plain speach in law confuses attorneys.

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I don't consider being okay with heavier regulations on full-auto and explosives "used to the oppression", I consider it well-reasoned restriction just like background checks. Yeah, if we must go there, I trust my neighbors with AR-15s and Glocks, but not with Stingers and RPG-7s. People are pretty darn stupid these days, they can't control their waistlines or balance a checkbook. At a certain point we have to step back from the hard line and realize the total absurdity of privately owned nukes and 155mm artillery.
I agree with its original intent, which was to allow the citizenry to have the club of being able to overthrow oppression. That is what the Declaration of Independance was all about. That is what the Revolutionary War was all about. If the people did not have the same access to the military weapons of the then most powerful army in the world, we would still be a colony of the UK.

So, there has been a lot of infringement going on for quite sometime. From the 1930's to present. But, that is not suprising considering that was the birth of the progressives.

The reason you are timid about such things is because you have been raised in a progressive environment where the Second Amendment has been unconstitutionally stripped of its intent and meaning. There are plenty of places across the world that don't even have a Second Amendment Right that are less oppressive about what their citizenry can possess.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:21   #72
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But what's the actual percentage of citizens exercising this "limited" and "infringed" right we have???

C'mon, don't be coy, we know that most are not gun owners, most gun sales are to people who already own a multitude of firearms already.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
Who knows what the actual percentage is or ever was for that matter? How are you going to compare percentages you have no ideal about? You asked so you tell me what percentage of firearms sales are to folks already owning firearms and what percentage to first time buyers. I do not know myself.

I would add that it really does not matter, you implication that American society is somehow turning over all personal responsibility for security to the government is not shown in the economics of the firearm industry. Look at the boom in sales of small compact carry handguns and ARs for example.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:30   #73
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Is this your way of minimizing the Bill of Rights as vestigle?



I know, plain speach in law confuses attorneys.



I agree with its original intent, which was to allow the citizenry to have the club of being able to overthrow oppression. That is what the Declaration of Independance was all about. That is what the Revolutionary War was all about. If the people did not have the same access to the military weapons of the then most powerful army in the world, we would still be a colony of the UK.

So, there has been a lot of infringement going on for quite sometime. From the 1930's to present. But, that is not suprising considering that was the birth of the progressives.

The reason you are timid about such things is because you have been raised in a progressive environment where the Second Amendment has been unconstitutionally stripped of its intent and meaning. There are plenty of places across the world that don't even have a Second Amendment Right that are less oppressive about what their citizenry can possess.
Citizens vs standing armies via 1770s and same thing via 2010s are vastly different. For example you name one military piece of equipment in the 1770s that could not be fully countered by militia forces. There is not one. Try the same exercise in 2012 and we can all name dozens upon dozens. If you really want to change the laws you had better come up with a more reasonable and realistic debate point than that. That one will get exactly zero in a open debate, in court, in any legislature or with the American people IMO.

Who is timid about the 2nd A? Because I don't believe what you do about it's meaning in 2012 I am timid?
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:34   #74
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This isn't mentioned enough. The Founding Fathers were not some solid block of the same opinions. In fact the Constitution as drafted did not even HAVE a bill of rights, they threw it in at the last minute to appease the Antifederalists.

"Shall not be infringed" without anything else is an argument as devoid of reason and logic as "Guns kill people".

I don't consider being okay with heavier regulations on full-auto and explosives "used to the oppression", I consider it well-reasoned restriction just like background checks. Yeah, if we must go there, I trust my neighbors with AR-15s and Glocks, but not with Stingers and RPG-7s. People are pretty darn stupid these days, they can't control their waistlines or balance a checkbook. At a certain point we have to step back from the hard line and realize the total absurdity of privately owned nukes and 155mm artillery.
If you think the founders included the 2nd amendment for the purpose of protecting hunting rights your argument makes sense. If however, you think the founders included the 2nd amendment for the purpose of keeping tyranny at bay I find your argument lacking.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:36   #75
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Citizens vs standing armies via 1770s and same thing via 2010s are vastly different. For example you name one military piece of equipment in the 1770s that could not be fully countered by militia forces. There is not one. Try the same exercise in 2012 and we can all name dozens upon dozens. If you really want to change the laws you had better come up with a more reasonable and realistic debate point than that. That one will get exactly zero in a open debate, in court, in any legislature or with the American people IMO.
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Who is timid about the 2nd A? Because I don't believe what you do about it's meaning in 2012 I am timid?
I'm sorry, I forgot it is 2012. You're absolutely right, all your rights under the Bill of Rights should be null and void; because, after all they were written by men in silly looking wigs in the 18th century. So, I guess, you aren't allowed to have an opinion, because that opinion might be dangerous, you should expect to have law enforcement search your home at will, and there are some displaced veterans that need quartering. Afterall, it is 2012, right?

The technology for electronic surveillance has increased, so you shouldn't expect privacy in your own home. Oh, and there has been a lenghty war that has been going on longer than that pesky 1776 and 1812 thing, so there are some troops that need to be housed. Lucky for you, you have extra rooms. But, hey, as part of your patriotic duty you can sleep on the couch and the living room floor and they can have your rooms, right?

Oh, and forget not incriminating yourself, if you get picked up, because that is antiquated as well, Also, you have an unpopular religious choice, so you are going to have to attend whatever relgions the state has chosen.

I mean, for heaven's sake it is 2012 afer all.
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