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Old 12-08-2012, 04:09   #1
Punisher_nbi45
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On pnp rules and the right to gun ownership

Well, here we go again...for the past 2 motnhs or so, the pnp has decided to turn all the tules of gun ownership upside down.

As if they weren't flawed to begin with...jus like the fact that you have gun stores "expedite" the prrocessing of licenses that, as per the rules, you would need a drug and psych test before getting a license....not to mention the abhorrent and costly process of getting a ptc...

But now (well, as of the last gunshow), if you don't register your firearm/s by dec. 31, you WILL be considered in possession of unlicensed (& therefore illegal) firearms, and will b subject to a possible police operation if you don't surrender the same....

WHAT A CROCK OF *****!!!

I've always held the belief that firearms ownership, as long as done responsibly and yempered with the right training and mindset, is a constitutionally guaranteed human right. It should not be subject to the whims and caprices of a certain government agency whose reputation is that of a tarnished and corrupt institution. Now, to be fair, not all pnp ate like that, and i apologize to my pnp brothers and sisters who go day in and day out upholding the noble principles that are supposed to be the very core foundation of the pnp. But it just gets my goat that those narrow-minded few, when faced with both the pressure to stomp the worsening criminality in our country, come up with a half-*ss idea that is only meant to line up their pockets.

The bottom line is: if you restrict legal and responsible gun ownership, what are you left with? A nation of blind and mindless sheep? And who are you really helping out in the long run? The citizenry or the criminals?

Or do you want to turn the country into a nation of criminals by taking the legal guns out of the handns of respinsible, God-fearing, and law-abiding citizens?

Do you think your "clever" and partial rules would be followed (or even noticed) by the criminal elements?

I think it's about time for the responsible gun owners sehment to stand up and be heard. Gun ownership should be made a priority issue, and we should start looking for and electing leaders who will make sure that our rights will be allowed to flourish, not infringed. Tightening down on gun ownership will not solve anything except the problems of criminals on how to move more freely.

Once society is disarmed, who will protect us, the regular joes and janes? Frankly, i hate to thi k what i will do if it comes to that, but rest assured, i will not give up my rights without a fight.

Message ends.

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Old 12-08-2012, 08:13   #2
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i think this will only promote more unlicensed firearms. who in the right mind will register their firearms knowing that any changing of guards or different interpretation of the rules will result in confiscations?

to clarify, even if our licenses are not expired yet, we need to register by end of this year? is this another money making scheme?

why do they always target responsible gun owners? they know where the "paltiks" are made, they know where to look for private armed groups, why don't they start there? do they honestly think that criminals will follow their new rules? they can have my firearm if they can guarantee my safety and security like in Singapore.
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Old 12-08-2012, 17:13   #3
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What does register mean? Is this different from already having a licensed and legal firearm with an up to date license? Does this mean that apart from the updated license we still need to register our fa's separately?
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Old 12-08-2012, 23:59   #4
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And what exactly does PNP stand for???
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Old 12-09-2012, 00:42   #5
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And what exactly does PNP stand for???
Philippine National Police.
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:13   #6
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Originally Posted by kontra View Post
i think this will only promote more unlicensed firearms. who in the right mind will register their firearms knowing that any changing of guards or different interpretation of the rules will result in confiscations?

to clarify, even if our licenses are not expired yet, we need to register by end of this year? is this another money making scheme?

why do they always target responsible gun owners? they know where the "paltiks" are made, they know where to look for private armed groups, why don't they start there? do they honestly think that criminals will follow their new rules? they can have my firearm if they can guarantee my safety and security like in Singapore.
I suppose ironically these are the individuals (criminals and illegal private armies) that the PNP could not control but would want to control through all these rules, which they are in fact immune whereas have resulted to penalizing the legitimate gun owners.

Bottomline, it is not new or change in laws that is needed rather full enforcement of existing laws.This is where the focus should be.

One could only hope that the changes in the laws are not simply to mask the failures of enforcement by showing the public that they are taking action by what - changing the rules of the game, which would by perception show they are taking action, though illogically targeting the responsible peaceful law abiding gun owners.
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:39   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbullet View Post
I suppose ironically these are the individuals (criminals and illegal private armies) that the PNP could not control but would want to control through all these rules, which they are in fact immune whereas have resulted to penalizing the legitimate gun owners.

Bottomline, it is not new or change in laws that is needed rather full enforcement of existing laws.This is where the focus should be.

One could only hope that the changes in the laws are not simply to mask the failures of enforcement by showing the public that they are taking action by what - changing the rules of the game, which would by perception show they are taking action, though illogically targeting the responsible peaceful law abiding gun owners.
To quote Thomas Jefferson:

"The tree of Liberty must, from time to time, be refreshed with the blood of patriots and TYRANTS!"




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Old 12-09-2012, 08:56   #8
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Re: ptt's
FED will check daw applicants if they do compete monthly and kung member ng ppsa kung bibigyan ng ptt to all accredited ranges
Matrabaho yata yan or do they just plan to google every name that applies for a ptt?
O well, may reason na ulit para pumutok
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Old 12-09-2012, 18:43   #9
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And what exactly does PNP stand for???
Pahingi Ng Pera.
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Old 12-09-2012, 23:20   #10
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From what I can see, they are trying to implement what the commonwealth states are doing, i.e. Australia, UK, New Zealand, Canada etc. In these countries and some EU member countries require competitors to at least show that they are active in the sport by at least attending once a month competition may it be an interclub or a competition within just the club itself, which is designated as the club day of the week.

Note that these countries dont allow the use of firearms for self defense with the premise that it should be the police and its armed offender squad (i.e. SWAT) responsible in upholding the law.

The problem in the Philippines is that crime is more violent than what is experienced in these commonwealth states that it requires lethal force response most of the time, whereas crimes in the commonwealth states do not usually involve weapons and if it does involve a gun, the AOS, aka SWAT are called in and are at the scene in less than 5 mins and they are known to relentlessly pursue the offender.

So the Philippines in my opinion should be somewhat more closely resembles the US in which gun laws should be somewhat similar to that, tempered to some degree in order to avoid something like Columbine from happening. Then again if something similar to Columbine does happen, it is very likely that it would be an unlicensed firearm as it is still relatively easy to source as long as one is determined to get hands on those "paltiks"
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:16   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Young Once View Post
What does register mean? Is this different from already having a licensed and legal firearm with an up to date license? Does this mean that apart from the updated license we still need to register our fa's separately?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kontra View Post
to clarify, even if our licenses are not expired yet, we need to register by end of this year? is this another money making scheme?
Registration and licensing go hand-in-hand when you buy
or otherwise acquire a firearm. After an initial registration
and licensing, you're obligated to renew licenses every 2
years.

Note that in the Philippines, it is the firearm, rather than
the owner, which is licensed: PNP does not run a FOID-
based system.

Who are affected by the recent change in policy?
AFAICT, the PNP is NOT saying that firearms with valid
licenses will need registering anew. Only firearms with
expired or nearly-expired licenses are affected.

How are they affected?
Formerly, if you were a little late in renewing your firearm
licenses, you only faced extra penalty fees, IIRC scaled
to your tardiness. Also (and again IIRC), you would have
had to neglect your renewal for 2 whole years before the
concerned firearm(s) might be deemed "loose", and you
thence could be charged with the illegal possession of a
firearm, punishable by up to 8(?) years in prison, with the
confiscation of all your firearms and related gear.

The recent changes?
PNP is now saying that the second your license expires,
you are treated as if chargeable with illegal possession.
This has harsh implications for those whose gun licenses
have expired only in the last several months or so, most
especially provincial owners who face delays in renewal
processing, owing to PNP's Manila-centic registration
system. Not only are affected gun owners under threat
of being raided and charged with a crime, but even if
they should fulfill their obligations to renew their licenses
before anything unpleasant DOES befall them, they may
now have to re-register their affected guns, with all the
considerable cost and effort involved, even though their
affected guns still remain recorded in the PNP registry!

Still other changes are discussed in this recent thread:
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1454799

If someone knows a better assessment of the situation,
kindly correct me, but in the case of expired licenses and
renewal/re-registration...

The excuse for this arbitrary change in policy is cited by
PNP as a directive from the President to account for all
loose firearms (literally, guns that PNP cannot account
for) before the General Elections in May 2013.

Note that PNP's new policy does little for the problem of
firearms that were NEVER registered, a serious issue in
the Muslim south which PNP seems too timid to face.*
Law-abiding gun owners in the Christian north are easier
targets, perhaps.


So...
What happened to all the hype that a "pro-gun" President
such as Noynoy Aquino would mean better times for legit
gun-owners? Just how far can reality swerve from popular
impressions and expectations?

For example...
I see plenty of reasons to vote Jack Enrile for senator, but
if Pres. Noynoy's post-election record is to serve as guide,
should I now fear that once senator, PPSA honcho Enrile
will also go against perceived grain, and facilitate further
restrictions on Filipino gun ownership?

These are strange and troubling times.
Keep fighting for your rights, and vote wisely.





* To be fair, PNP has had improved success in recovering
loose firearms from criminal groups all over the country, via
proper policework this year. There are between 350,000 and
650,000 loose firearms estimated in the Philippines, the bulk
of this number is taken from known-registers that have not
been license-renewed for some time, and includes fragment
records carried-over from as far back as the 1950's.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:54   #12
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I think Jack Enrile's concern is only sports shooting. As long as shooting sport (PPSA) will still be allowed, then IMO, it's not a concern for him.


As for our "Progun" President, he is not affected because he is being protected by a regiment sized unit.

For us mere mortals, we are left to fend for ourselves...
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Old 12-11-2012, 21:24   #13
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Originally Posted by jimbullet View Post
From what I can see, they are trying to implement what the commonwealth states are doing, i.e. Australia, UK, New Zealand, Canada etc. In these countries and some EU member countries require competitors to at least show that they are active in the sport by at least attending once a month competition may it be an interclub or a competition within just the club itself, which is designated as the club day of the week.

Note that these countries dont allow the use of firearms for self defense with the premise that it should be the police and its armed offender squad (i.e. SWAT) responsible in upholding the law.

The problem in the Philippines is that crime is more violent than what is experienced in these commonwealth states that it requires lethal force response most of the time, whereas crimes in the commonwealth states do not usually involve weapons and if it does involve a gun, the AOS, aka SWAT are called in and are at the scene in less than 5 mins and they are known to relentlessly pursue the offender.

So the Philippines in my opinion should be somewhat more closely resembles the US in which gun laws should be somewhat similar to that, tempered to some degree in order to avoid something like Columbine from happening. Then again if something similar to Columbine does happen, it is very likely that it would be an unlicensed firearm as it is still relatively easy to source as long as one is determined to get hands on those "paltiks"
In Canada, you don't have to be a gun club member if you own non-restricted firearms. An Authority to Transport (ATT) is also not required for this classification of firearm. If you own a restricted firearm (pistol with a barrel length of 4.1" or more, an AR type rifle, or a rifle with a folding stock with less than 18" barrel length), you need to be a gun club member. You also need an Authority to Transport (ATT) for restricted firearms which covers all accredited gun ranges as well as gunsmiths in the province; which covers all the restricted firearms you own, in most cases, valid through the life of your firearms license (which is five years), and which is also free of charge.

Firearms owners only need to pay a one-time fee totalling around $100.00 for the initial firearms license, valid for five years. After that, firearms license renewal is free of charge. There are now talks that the firearm license validity would be changed from five years to ten years (or even longer), courtesy of the level-headed Conservative Party who presently is the ruling party in Canada. The Conservative Party also ordered the Firearms Registry for Non-restricted firearms destroyed with the exception of Quebec, who fought to have the registry in their province retained.

While the Conservative government in Canada is working to untangle the mess the former Liberal government created by relaxing gun laws, the Philippines is doing the opposite.
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Old 12-11-2012, 21:42   #14
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Found this on the internet, and it best summarizes the value of gun ownership:

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have suffficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington
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Old 12-12-2012, 00:26   #15
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In Canada, you don't have to be a gun club member if you own non-restricted firearms. An Authority to Transport (ATT) is also not required for this classification of firearm. If you own a restricted firearm (pistol with a barrel length of 4.1" or more, an AR type rifle, or a rifle with a folding stock with less than 18" barrel length), you need to be a gun club member. You also need an Authority to Transport (ATT) for restricted firearms which covers all accredited gun ranges as well as gunsmiths in the province; which covers all the restricted firearms you own, in most cases, valid through the life of your firearms license (which is five years), and which is also free of charge.

Firearms owners only need to pay a one-time fee totalling around $100.00 for the initial firearms license, valid for five years. After that, firearms license renewal is free of charge. There are now talks that the firearm license validity would be changed from five years to ten years (or even longer), courtesy of the level-headed Conservative Party who presently is the ruling party in Canada. The Conservative Party also ordered the Firearms Registry for Non-restricted firearms destroyed with the exception of Quebec, who fought to have the registry in their province retained.

While the Conservative government in Canada is working to untangle the mess the former Liberal government created by relaxing gun laws, the Philippines is doing the opposite.
I believe we follow the same rules across the ditch down under, with the only difference being all pistols are considered restricted weapons and require one to be active in a gun club. However we are not required to have any sort of authority to transport if one is bringing it to a shooting event anywhere in the country and license is for the individual and not the firearm which goes 10 years. In short, 1 license for all guns you own.

Incidentally and on the side, rules were changed with regards to storage during the Australasian 2013 requiring all competitors to have their guns stored with the organizers but with normal shoots, a shooter can have it with him in the hotel, subject to certain conditions in which it is the responsibility of the individual to comply with the law.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:10   #16
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I wnoder if the PNP will have the same number of restrictions and requirements kung walang bayad ang license/ptt/ptc etc
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:55   #17
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I believe we follow the same rules across the ditch down under, with the only difference being all pistols are considered restricted weapons and require one to be active in a gun club. However we are not required to have any sort of authority to transport if one is bringing it to a shooting event anywhere in the country and license is for the individual and not the firearm which goes 10 years. In short, 1 license for all guns you own.

Incidentally and on the side, rules were changed with regards to storage during the Australasian 2013 requiring all competitors to have their guns stored with the organizers but with normal shoots, a shooter can have it with him in the hotel, subject to certain conditions in which it is the responsibility of the individual to comply with the law.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are semi-auto rifles not allowed in Australia? Semi-auto rifles are allowed in Canada but are restricted to 5 round magazines with the exception of the M1 Garand and the AR-type rifles which can use LAR 10-round magazines
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Old 12-12-2012, 16:45   #18
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Quote:
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I wnoder if the PNP will have the same number of restrictions and requirements kung walang bayad ang license/ptt/ptc etc
Kung wala silang mapapala lalong hihgpitan yan. Pati sumpit i-regulate.

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Old 12-13-2012, 06:01   #19
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...This has harsh implications for those whose gun licenses have expired only in the last several months or so, most especially provincial owners who face delays in renewal processing, owing to PNP's Manila-centic registration system...
I was pleasantly surprised to discover that the PNP Satellite Office in Metrotown Mall, Tarlac City processes FA license renewals. I was on my way to Manila last week to get my licenses renewed at Crame when I decided to pass by this mall for lunch.

I saw the PNP office and inquired about license renewal. They said I could apply there and the license would be processed within 1 to 2 days. True enough, they texted me the following day to inform me that my renewed licenses were already available. (I think they have their own ID card printer there, at least that's what one of the devices in their office looked like).

I don't know if they offer this same service in other provinces.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:06   #20
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I was pleasantly surprised to discover that the PNP Satellite Office in Metrotown Mall, Tarlac City processes FA license renewals. I was on my way to Manila last week to get my licenses renewed at Crame when I decided to pass by this mall for lunch.

I saw the PNP office and inquired about license renewal. They said I could apply there and the license would be processed within 1 to 2 days. True enough, they texted me the following day to inform me that my renewed licenses were already available. (I think they have their own ID card printer there, at least that's what one of the devices in their office looked like).
That's great news, Mike.

Quote:
I don't know if they offer this same service in other provinces.
They ought to, and down to large municipalities.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:11   #21
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That's great news, Mike.



They ought to, and down to large municipalities.
I just hope that they do it like what they do with driver's license. LTO style license renewal and they should get rid of the payment for gun safety seminar and firearms bond.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:49   #22
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As far as I can remember, the Police Regional Office here does renewals while you wait ala drivers license...
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Old 12-13-2012, 14:52   #23
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I just hope that they do it like what they do with driver's license. LTO style license renewal and they should get rid of the payment for gun safety seminar and firearms bond.
Well...

The safety seminar is arguably necessary, and since
there aren't many third-parties offering it (the way
that so many 'driving schools' offer driving lessons),
it has to be subconned under oversight by FED itself.

The firearms bond has been discussed before. It's a
now-symbolic deposit against your pledge to keep
your guns out of the hands of rebels/criminals, as
well as to follow all laws and regulations on firearm
ownership. When it was first introduced by the U.S.
Philippine Commission (1907), the actual bond was
a relatively-substantial value (P50.00, I believe) and
thus a real deterrent to reckless ownership.

I will agree though, that the cost of owning firearms
has been steadily and artifically increased in this
country to nearly-exclusive levels, and that the PNP
has often appeared to view registration/licensing as
a chiefly-commercial undertaking.

I will also agree that our firearms law is in bad shape.
Poorly-written, self-contradicting and then too often
ignored by PNP-FED itself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cebuboy View Post
As far as I can remember, the Police Regional Office here does renewals while you wait ala drivers license...
IIRC 4-5 years ago, a "clean-air breather" had to wait
at least a week to get the paper(s) back, and then 2
or more weeks to get the actual card(s). In contrast,
smog-eaters in NCR get their cards within 45 minutes
of walking into PNP-FED, or within 3 weeks if they go
the "runner" route.

If waiting times in (all) the provinces have dropped to
sub-week levels, then bravo PNP-FED.
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Old 12-13-2012, 15:34   #24
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I think Jack Enrile's concern is only sports shooting. As long as shooting sport (PPSA) will still be allowed, then IMO, it's not a concern for him.
To the massive contrary, Rep. Jack Enrile has appeared
to grow, from a parochially-minded sporting enthusiast
into a staunch advocate for our right to be armed:

Many years back he published a PPSA editorial arguing an
exclusion of non-PPSA'ers from the ability to own anything
beyond the Marcos-era ".38 handgun, and 12ga. or .22LR
longarm". It was an obnoxious document, because while it
is one thing to look out for (and increase) PPSA freedoms,
it is quite another to try to reduce the freedoms of those
outside the PPSA.

Fast forward to 2010, and Rep. Enrile filed his HB 3501,
aka ‘Firearms and Explosives Act of Year 2010’, which
contained this particular section:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rep. Jack Enrile, in House Bill 3501
It is therefore the duty of the State to recognize the
Filipino citizen’s inalienable right to own, possess and
carry firearms
to protect the state, assist police and
military personnel as well as to protect his person,
family, property and the citizenry at large, provided
such firearms are registered and licensed to ensure
that life, liberty and property of each and every citizen
is protected. (emphasis added)
That was a massive shift in his outward political stance,
and should be supported by us all, especially in the face
of apalling attempts to reduce our freedoms, such as last
year's (still pending) SB 129, penned by Sen. Frank Drilon,
who is seeking to END the issuance of ALL carry permits
in our country.

Quote:
As for our "Progun" President, he is not affected because he is being protected by a regiment sized unit.
For us mere mortals, we are left to fend for ourselves...
I'd prefer if we truly WERE left to fend for ourselves.
The current trend is to tell us the PNP will fend for us,
thus we don't really need our guns... because in the
horrible instance when/where we're faced with deadly
violence, we all know the PNP will ALWAYS show up
in time, wherever we are, to save us ....right?



h.
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Last edited by horge; 12-13-2012 at 15:56..
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Old 12-14-2012, 14:43   #25
Punisher_nbi45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isuzu View Post
Found this on the internet, and it best summarizes the value of gun ownership:

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have suffficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington
Many people are saying that under our current structure, "we do not have a right to keep and bear arms since, unlike the U.S. 2nd amendment, it is not explicitly written down (and thus enshrined) in our own Constitution".

But doesn't our same Constitution say that we have a right to protect ourselves? Of that we should be secure in our persons and property and that the same cannot be searched or seized without judicial justification?

If it seems to be an emotional reaction, it is because this is a highly-charged issue for me - responsible gun ownership is a right, not a privilege, and it should not be taken away by any government unless they can assure us of stable and just society wherein the citizenry need not live in fear of the lawlesness and mindless violence that all of us are experiencing now.
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