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Old 12-05-2012, 23:17   #21
NorthCarolinaLiberty
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C. There's no such thing as right or wrong, good or evil. These concepts were invented by men in order to control other men.
I change the 2nd sentence to read "These concepts are exaggerated by men in order to control other men. The exaggeration crosses the boundry between free will and social good. The exaggeration is more concerned with order rather than natural law.

The bans on hemp products contributed to economic order for hemp's competition. The ban had little to do with right and wrong.

Other examples abound. The real decline of America has more to do with a crumbling order than any mass violations of natural law.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:19   #22
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I say the answer is A
Then why don't you address some of the examples that have been given.

Let's start with an easy one. Is killing another human being good or evil?
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:06   #23
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Right is whatever I feel it should be at the moment. The people that happen to agree with me most are right, center and left atheist gun owners. I've been noticing more of them around.
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:55   #24
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Right and wrong have no clear set definition that will stand the test of time. Right and wrong are constantly changing. Think back to segregation, it was absolutely horrible for a black man to even think of looking at a white girl, let alone touching her, kissing her, or even marrying her. Does that mean it should still be wrong today?

Think back to when it was a requirement to sacrifice animals to appease our gods. Does that mean it should still be acceptable today?

Think back to when girls were married off at 13 or 14, and expected to give birth to a dozen or so kids, to make sure her husband would have an heir. And her husband would usually be in his 30s or 40s. Does that mean it should still be acceptable today?

Think back to when it was acceptable to take your chamber pots filled with human waste and toss them out your second story window, without bothering to look below to make sure it didn't land on anybody. Should that still be acceptable today?

Think back to when it was right for a white man to own black slaves. Should that still be right today?

Think back to when women didn't have the right to vote, and were thought of as less than men. Does that mean it should still be right today?

Think back to when dead, disease-ridden bodies were hurled over castle walls to infect the besieged inhabitants, so that they would die quicker. Does that mean it should still be right today?

The only reason you think there are clear cut lines between good and bad is because you only think about yourself, in the present, right now. You don't consider the past, the future, or anybody else except yourself. If you took even a minute to actually think for a change, you would realize that good and evil is not set in stone, it is defined by the presiding society of that time.
This is a good post full of good examples, but you are failing to distinguish between what is generally accepted as good and what is good in a real sense. For instance:

1) The requirement to sacrifice animals destroyed part of the wealth of the society on which its future growth and succes depended but did no real good. Therefore it was always bad even when it wa widely approved of.

2) In the main period when girls were married off at 13 the life expectancy was generally about 40. They did not have much time to produce enough children and so that was generally a good thing because without it the group would have died out. With longer life spans, continued education and child bearing age extended to over 40 with too many people in the world, being married at 13 is a very bad thing. So this changes with enviromental conditions.

3) Owning slaves of any ethnicity is a bad thing for very complicated reasons but remember that the word slave came from the ethnic eastern europeans, the Slavs. They were raided for slaves long before the europeans knew of the existence of black people.

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Old 12-06-2012, 06:35   #25
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Yep...

Killing your child for not making his bed -- evil.
Killing your child for cursing you -- good.

Genocide ordered by man -- evil.
Genocide ordered by God -- good.

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There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven---
A time to give birth, and a time to die,
A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.
A time to kill...
Imagine that.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:05   #26
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There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven---
A time to give birth, and a time to die,
A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.
A time to kill...
Imagine that.
Yep, as I said if God wants you to kill every man, woman and child (perhaps you get to keep the virgins), that's a good thing.

If God floods the earth killing all men, women and children (save 8) because His Great Experiment was a failure that's a good thing.

We have a book that tells us so. Imagine that.

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Old 12-06-2012, 07:20   #27
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Yep, as I said if God wants you to kill every man, woman and child (perhaps you get to keep the virgins), that's a good thing.

If God floods the earth killing all men, women and children (save 8) because His Great Experiment was a failure that's a good thing.

We have a book that tells us so. Imagine that.

-ArtificialGrape
Hum... it would appear that you are struggling with progressive revelation.

As to the flood, many here have routinely said, "Play stupid games. Win stupid prizes." Put bluntly, choices have consequences. The choices of evil people affects themselves... and others. It's the consequence of people being free to make choices. They make them. And they and others have to live with them... or die with them as the case may be.

For those who choose wisely, there is life. There are those who choose poorly. For them the only hope is mercy. Happily the witness of Scripture is that mercy triumphs over judgment.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:27   #28
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Hum... it would appear that you are struggling with progressive revelation.

As to the flood, many here have routinely said, "Play stupid games. Win stupid prizes." Put bluntly, choices have consequences. The choices of evil people affects themselves... and others. It's the consequence of people being free to make choices. They make them. And they and others have to live with them... or die with them as the case may be.

For those who choose wisely, there is life. There are those who choose poorly. For them the only hope is mercy. Happily the witness of Scripture is that mercy triumphs over judgment.
What astounding logic. Unless the eight people on the Ark were the only non evil people in the world, the decision to kill everyone else was as stupid as believing that I am socialist because I live in the UK. And where was the triumph of mercy over judgement? Nowhere to be seen!

And what is progressve revelation? It sounds socialist to me and rather like Obama slowly exposing what he intended to do all along.

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Old 12-06-2012, 08:36   #29
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Both B and C are true.

C. There's no such thing as right or wrong, good or evil. These concepts were invented by men in order to control other men.

But, rules of conduct/morality allow us to live together and cooperate, so they benefit the individual and the group. There are many ways of determining what is right and wrong but, in the end, it all comes down to what benefits the individual decision maker and, for those capable of fairly complex reasoning, that can often mean choices that appear to benefit the group, at the expense of the decision-maker. Therefore:

B. Right or wrong, good or evil is determined by the circumstances present during any conflict. There is a gray area between the two, and each individual person must decide for themselves what is right or wrong, good or evil.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:51   #30
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First, let me say that it was refreshing to see an unbiased wording in these options. In other similar threads, the wording has always been slanted such to make the non-theistic options sound negative. So, JBinTX, thanks for that.

I would mostly go with the idea that they (right, wrong, good, evil, etc) are concepts that only exist within the minds of men. They are whatever we decide they are, nothing more. That said, there are some crimes that are nearly universally agreed upon amongst everyone (assault, murder, theft, rape, etc). The commonality of all these fundamental crimes is that they involve one person directly infringing upon the rights of another. If I were emperor for a day and could determine a new legal system that would govern the country, I would make this the core principle of that system. People should be free to do whatever they please, right up to the point where they are directly impacting the ability of another to do likewise.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:01   #31
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Which of the following do you consider to be the MOST true.

A. There is a definitive boundary between what's right or wrong and what's good or evil. There is no gray area between the two. Everything is either right or wrong, good or evil.

B. Right or wrong, good or evil is determined by the circumstances present during any conflict. There is a gray area between the two, and each individual person must decide for themselves what is right or wrong, good or evil.

C. There's no such thing as right or wrong, good or evil. These concepts were invented by men in order to control other men.

D. I believe something entirely different.
This is an interesting question; one that I'm sure you'll get a wide variety of different answers on. My choice? I believe Statement, 'A' to be the most true.

It’s interesting that you should bring this topic up now because men have been actively debating this subject since, at least, the mid 60’s when rationale about, ‘situational ethics’ was all the rage. It has subsequently been established that situational ethics do NOT work; but, unfortunately, the inherent moral lessons have failed to stick and, ‘strike home’.

Pontius Pilot asked The Christ, ‘What is truth?’ Christ chose NOT to answer Pilot. ‘Why’ continues to remain an outstanding question. Elsewhere The Lord Jesus said, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto The Father except through Me;’ but while He was standing before Pilot (Who held a temporary power of life or death over Him.) Jesus very deliberately declined to answer.

The statement, the realization, that: ‘The final, the ultimate, nature of truth is, both, absolute and self-evident.’ applies to all endeavors of the conscious mind, as well as to the successful accomplishment of all material challenges.

Man, himself, is a slave to conscious reason. The principal determinant, the faculty to decide and choose a final solution, of the conscious mind is RATIONAL NEGATION. Without intellectual choice AND rational negation, a man is completely unable to think intelligently; he cannot make clever, reasoned choices that work, pragmatically, in order to solve physical problems inside the real material world.

The various cerebral processes of rational negation apply to all endeavors of the conscious mind: physical, mental, emotional, and cognitive (including mathematical and philosophical realizations).

All of us are here, cast in material form and enslaved by our conscious minds, in order for each of us to learn the difference between that which is good, and that which is evil. While, on the surface, such differentiation might appear to be relatively easy to accomplish, it is, in fact, an extremely difficult intellectual feat to achieve. Ultimately, though, a man's life - his very soul, itself - hangs in the balance.

Those souls which are able to use the intellectual process of rational negation in order to acquire an awareness of the precise differences between good, and evil stand to advantage themselves in ways which exceed, both, conscious thought as well as material existence.

Those souls which, for whatever personal reasons, remain locked within the strictures of conscious thought and rational negation ultimately disadvantage themselves and risk - through what sacred Judeo-Christian scripture describes as, ‘stiff necks’ or, ‘hardness of heart’ - achieving a diminution of, both, material and intellectual being via a soulful process described by various ancient philosophers as interrelated, ‘metempsychosis’ and, ‘anamnesis’. (Yes, these spiritual realities ARE alluded to in The Bible; BUT, you've got to know where to look for them.)

The larger part of mankind’s complete failure to rise beyond the confines of, both, conscious reason and rational negation is euphemistically described in the Holy Bible as, ‘going to Hell’.

Christ comparatively identified people’s wasted lives and failures to ultimately recognize the precise differences between preexistent good and evil as, ‘throwing your mortal soul upon a burning heap of garbage where it would be consumed into a lesser form, or forms, of material being.

When a shrewd Christian tells someone, ‘You’re going to go to Hell’ what he is saying is, ‘You are not only destroying any chance you have of gaining favor with God, but, you are also actively destroying both your (constantly decaying) physical body AS WELL AS the operational motive soul (or, ‘vital life force’) behind your material (and very mortal) earthly being'.

Simple minds often confuse the distinct and highly separate differences between spirit, and soul. In knowing esoteric faith spirit, and soul are NOT the same thing. Whenever a living soul consciously - even deliberately - destroys itself it is the spirit, itself, which ultimately suffers! The Messiah clearly stated,

Fear them not therefore: For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; nor hid, that shall not be known.

(THIS IS NOT A CONDITIONAL STATEMENT; IT IS, INSTEAD, AN EMPHATIC PROMISE OF GOD! LIKE THE SUN COMING UP EVERY MORNING, IT MUST ULTIMATELY OCCUR!)

(INDIVIDUAL CHOICE IS NOT A FACTOR. NEITHER IS THERE ANY SORT OF EFFECTIVE ESCAPE FROM EVENTUAL JUDGMENT. MORTAL DEATH RATHER THAN RELEASING DISOBEDIENT SOULS INTO, ‘COMFORTABLE OBLIVION’ RELEASES THEM, INSTEAD, INTO THE BRIGHT LIGHT OF INEVITABLE DIVINE JUDGMENT - A VERY REAL JUDGMENT WITH VERY REAL POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES TO THE INVOLVED SOUL.)

What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in the light; and, what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.

Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? I tell you, now, that not one of them shall fall to earth without your Father knowing. Be advised: The very hairs of your head are, all, numbered. Therefore, fear not evil; nor the wickedness that men do; for, surely, ye are of much greater value than many sparrows.

Whosoever, therefore, shall confess Me before men, him will I, also, confess before My Father which is in Heaven; and, whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I, also, deny before My Heavenly Father.’ - Matthew 10:26-32

(THIS, TOO, IS NOT AN INCREDIBLE STATEMENT. IT IS ANOTHER IRREVOCABLE, AND CERTAIN TO OCCUR, PROMISE OF THE CHRIST!)

God allows men to sin; God allows men to ignore Him; God allows men to blaspheme against Him. God even allows men to doubt His existence, and ultimate power and authority, as well. What God does NOT allow, however, is for men to do any of these things for too long a period of time.

Finally, a quick word about animal sacrifice: All things must be considered IN CONTEXT. Men of all ages need to be taught and to receive instruction from within, both, the surrounding circumstances of their day, as well as from within the existing strictures of their reasonable minds.

As time passes, so does human perception; and human reasoning does NOT occur inside a vacuum. Spiritual influences ARE involved; and both God, and the devil actively participate.

Before either a Jew or a Christian (spiritual Jew) could understand the significance of The Messiah’s sacrifice, animal sacrifice first had to be made known and understood. One of the most fundamental concepts of Judeo-Christian faith is that,

ONLY LIVING BLOOD, SPILLED UPON THE ALTER OF GOD, ATONES FOR MORTAL SINS - NOTHING ELSE!

God primarily taught our human predecessors the importance of blood sacrifice through the deaths of living animals inside the temple. In its time, and in its day, this was an important foundational lesson for ALL of the Christian teachings which were to follow.

Unless animal sacrifice were to take place it really is almost impossible or anyone to grasp the real meaning and spiritual import to Moses’, ‘Prophet like me who must be pinned to and raised upon a torture stake in order that repentant (and cooperative) sinners might live.’ Take this emphatic spiritual realization out of Judeo-Christianity and,

THERE IS NO SPIRITUAL OR INTELLECTUAL NECESSITY FOR THE JEWISH MESSIAH TO APPEAR, AND NO NEED FOR JESUS OF NAZARETH TO ALLOW HIMSELF TO DIE WHILE FIXED TO - WHAT IS, ACTUALLY, NOT A ROMAN TORTURE STAKE, BUT INSTEAD - MOSES’ ORIGINAL SACRIFICIAL CROSS-OF-ATONEMENT WHICH WAS RAISED UP, 'IN THE WILDERNESS' IN ORDER TO SAVE THE JEWS.

Christ's sacrifice, and His spilled innocent blood, can save you, too; but, first, you’re going to have to, ‘soften your heart’, ‘let go of your stiff-necked pride’, and reach beyond the confining strictures of your (inherently sinful) conscious mind, and its self-defeating processes of rational negation in order to discover that eternal, loving, and motivational spirit which waits, beyond both conscious reason and the grave, for you to finally arrive.

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Old 12-06-2012, 09:39   #32
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Man, himself, is a slave to conscious reason. The principal determinant, the faculty to decide and choose a final solution, of the conscious mind is RATIONAL NEGATION. Without intellectual choice AND rational negation, a man is completely unable to think intelligently; he cannot make clever, reasoned choices that work, pragmatically, in order to solve physical problems inside the real material world.
So this "rational negation" is just simply part of our thinking process? I am not finding this fielded anywhere else.

What is the difference between intellectual choice and rational negation?

Are you implying that this process of rational negation will always lead to the same conclusion making truth verifiable?

Interesting premise, I am just trying to understand it.........or negate it.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:51   #33
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Man, himself, is a slave to conscious reason.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:54   #34
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Christ's sacrifice, and His spilled innocent blood, can save you, too; but, first, you’re going to have to, ‘soften your heart’, ‘let go of your stiff-necked pride’, and reach beyond the confining strictures of your (inherently sinful) conscious mind, and its self-defeating processes of rational negation in order to discover that eternal, loving, and motivational spirit which waits, beyond both conscious reason and the grave, for you to finally arrive.
So rational negation is necessary for conscious thought, but self defeating?

In other words don't trust your logical thinking, trust what is illogical? Rational negation will send you to hell and we are all infected with it?
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:04   #35
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Some of B, some of C, my sig line pretty much covers it.
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Old 12-06-2012, 15:50   #36
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What astounding logic. Unless the eight people on the Ark were the only non evil people in the world, the decision to kill everyone else was as stupid as believing that I am socialist because I live in the UK. And where was the triumph of mercy over judgement? Nowhere to be seen!

And what is progressve revelation? It sounds socialist to me and rather like Obama slowly exposing what he intended to do all along.

English
So much ignorance in such a small couple of paragraphs. Wouldn't have thought it possible.

You can learn. Start with a good modern language translation of the Bible. Reading straight through most folks can read it completely through in about 40 hours. With time and effort you get the hang of it.

As to the quote about mercy... you'll need to turn to the New Testament... specifically the fourth chapter of the book of James.

Now... as to progressive revelation, if you really think it has anything to do with the squatter then you are in need of a great deal of serious help. Suffice it to say that the term was in use long before liberals tried to coop it as a cloak for their own failed social/political agenda.
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Old 12-06-2012, 15:58   #37
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You can learn. Start with a good modern language translation of the Bible. Reading straight through most folks can read it completely through in about 40 hours. With time and effort you get the hang of it.
And while it only takes 40 hours to read, it, they can spend the rest of their life trying to understand it, and they never will.
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Old 12-06-2012, 16:11   #38
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So much ignorance in such a small couple of paragraphs. Wouldn't have thought it possible.

You can learn. Start with a good modern language translation of the Bible. Reading straight through most folks can read it completely through in about 40 hours. With time and effort you get the hang of it.

As to the quote about mercy... you'll need to turn to the New Testament... specifically the fourth chapter of the book of James.

Now... as to progressive revelation, if you really think it has anything to do with the squatter then you are in need of a great deal of serious help. Suffice it to say that the term was in use long before liberals tried to coop it as a cloak for their own failed social/political agenda.
I have no interest in learning more about the Bible, or about the religion of the Etruscans, the Aztecs or any other.

I was simply pointing out the contracictions just in the small parts you refered to.

The reference to Obama was no more than a play on the word "progressive" as in progressive taxation which just means socialist taxation. I quite accept that it has a much better older meaning which it is sad to loose, just like the word "gay"!

The fact remains that you used the term "progressive revelation" as a kind of jargon. That is, it is meaningful to you and some or all Christians but is meaningless to many other people, including me. My reference to it was no more than a minor joke. My reference to the inconsistency in what you say of the Bible was not.

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Old 12-06-2012, 16:19   #39
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I have no interest in learning more about the Bible, or about the religion of the Etruscans, the Aztecs or any other.
I'll save you the trouble. I've read it cover to cover and studied it for a year under the direction of two different professors with their doctorates in divinty (both were also practicing pastors). It doesn't say anything close to what most theists think it does. The only way a person can continue with the self-delusion that the bible is the inspired word of god is to never have actually read it all the way through in context (or be at least mildly mentally ill).
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Old 12-06-2012, 16:48   #40
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I'll save you the trouble. I've read it cover to cover and studied it for a year under the direction of two different professors with their doctorates in divinty (both were also practicing pastors). .

I find that impossible to believe.
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