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Old 12-03-2012, 22:17   #101
NCHeel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armchair Commando View Post
50k hrs?

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
I normally carry one strong side belt and a backup in a bag (Maxpedition Fatboy or Oakley Messenger) or weakside Kidney.

So if you do 6 years, I got my first SERPA in '05 or '06, at 350 days a year for 12 hours you are right at 25,000 hours. I carry for more than 12 hours a day and I doubt I go 15 days a year without carrying. Throw in the second backup and 50,000 hours becomes reasonable. I also have a SERPA holster mounted to the nightstand for beddy bye time.
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Old 12-03-2012, 22:23   #102
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Question I asked regarding this specific point about the energy in the striker:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1422220
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Old 12-03-2012, 22:33   #103
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Do you think there is a possibility that a piece of your coat, shirt or a thing else got caught in the holster when you were removing it? I usually pull the gun out of the holster before removing the holster from my belt, paddle etc. I have heard of clothing getting stuck on a trigger and also coat draw cords.
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Old 12-03-2012, 22:33   #104
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.....

Last edited by Made in Austria; 12-03-2012 at 22:37..
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Old 12-03-2012, 22:44   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PEC-Memphis View Post
The instructors at the armorers school.
Don't believe everything they say. As I said a few times before, Glock leaves their armorers and their instructors in the dark about many things because of various reasons. If it were true then a firing pin safety block would be useless in our Glock's. And as we all know, there is no useless crap inside and outside of the Glock.

Last edited by Made in Austria; 12-03-2012 at 23:06..
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Old 12-03-2012, 22:47   #106
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Originally Posted by cglaspel View Post

The holster is slightly damaged, (i.e. the push button lock is loose now and the inside is scraped. The pistol still holsters and locks in it though. Also after the pistol fired it failed to go fully into battery, which is expected since it was still in the holster.

this!
Sounds like the wrong holster. I have never tried firing a GLOCK while in a SERPA holster but if I put any of my GLOCKS (empty) in their SERPA holster I can rack the slide all I want and there is no contact, binding or interference of any kind. I could see a stove pipe or a failure to feed occurring like you would see while limp wristing but the holster should not bind up the slide.
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Old 12-03-2012, 22:49   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schapman43 View Post
Doesn't the firing pin safety hold the extractor in the slide? Is it even possible for the gun to function without the striker safety?
No, the safety block just helps to install the extractor, nothing more. Or one can say that you need the extractor to install the firing pin safety block, it would be nearly impossible to install the safety block without the extractor. The extractor plunger with its spring tension and the small bore/hole in the slide/extractor slot where the leg of the extractor goes into holds the extractor in place.

Edit: the extractor also works as a vertical movement limiter for the safety block. The safety block needs the extractor to function properly. The extractor doesn't need the safety block to work properly though.

schapman42, the glock striker is more than half cocked, after the slide was racked. The striker in a Glock is about 65-75% pre-set/pre-cocked. And ~98% in a Smith & Wesson M&P pistol.

Last edited by Made in Austria; 12-04-2012 at 00:02..
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Old 12-03-2012, 23:13   #108
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Just wanted to feel included in this thread. :D On a serious note though, this thread really hit home for me because I've been using the level III version of this holster for my Police Academy. I'm going to go with what has already been said, that the holster was not the correct size for the OPs Glock. Hopefully Blackhawk can confirm that when the op hears back from them. Stay safe!

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Old 12-04-2012, 00:27   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PEC-Memphis View Post
The head of Glock Professional, Inc. was the primary instructor at the armorer's school I attended in Smyrna, Georgia. He referred to one of the checks as "sear engagement", which is supposed to be a minimum of 2/3rds of the thickness of the trigger bar where the firing pin lug contacts the end of the trigger bar, ie. the sear...

...The end of the trigger bar clearly meets this definition, so I think Mr. Ramsey was correct in his statement, when he referred to "sear engagement".

If commonly accepted firearm terminology, and the statements made by the head instructor for the armorer's school for the manufacturer is not good enough for you - I'm sure that there is nothing more that can be written, or said, to convince you that, indeed, there is a sear in a Glock firearm.
There is no "sear" in a Glock and it's unfortunate that Alan Ramsey referred to "sear engagement". The Armorer's Manual refers to "Engagement" as "the relationship between the raised back portion of the trigger bar and its contact with the firing pin lug". I will concede that the "raised back portion of the trigger bar" in a Glock, serves the purpose of a sear in other guns and I often explain it that way. All that doesn't change the fact that there is no sear in a Glock!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Made in Austria View Post
Don't believe everything they say. As I said a few times before, Glock leaves their armorers and their instructors in the dark about many things because of various reasons...
Alan Ramsey isn't just simply another Armorer or Glock Instructor - he is in fact head of Glock Professional/Training. By relating the trigger bar to a sear, it may bring home the similarities between the Glock TB and other gun’s sears - but Glocks in fact do not contain sears!

...and for that matter, they do not contain strikers as many are prone to call the firing pin.
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:51   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
Well he has a $29 holster from that link so. And I don't recall hearing about any AD or NG from a Glock holster.

With practice you can learn to draw quickly from any holster. Or are you saying Glock sells unsafe holsters that cannot be drawn from in a safe amount of time in a SD situation?

You seem knowledgable (SIC) about this topic and I'd like to learn from someone with more experience then myself.

Are you saying we should carry our Glocks with no round in the chamber? I've been doing it for 20 years, carry my 1911's cocked & locked as well; and (Ed.) explain how a bone stock Glock can stack the trigger if nothing touches it?
‘Not hearing about any AD from a particular holster isn’t the point. (What’s an, ‘NG’?) The point I would make is that in this instance - and according to the OP, himself - this is NOT a holster-involved issue. (Danny only tried to turn it into one.)

All I said about Glock holsters is that they are (abominably) slow. Listen, you seem to be full of, ‘brimstone and vinegar’. That’s fine, I suppose. A lot of new posters start out, here, like that; but I’d appreciate it if, from now on, you wouldn’t put words in my mouth - OK!

What I said (and have repeatedly said, before) is obvious. Neither do I care how you carry your 1911. The world doesn’t have a superabundance of either wise, or particularly cautious men; nor do I expect it to anytime soon. As long as you don’t live next door to me and mine how you carry is not an issue (to me).

In my experience it’s not always possible for some people to learn from one another. Sometimes personal antipathy, ‘tips the scales’ one way or another; and effective interpersonal communication becomes impossible. (I see it around here all of the time; and bad social manners only serve to exacerbate the situation.)

As I said: I am certain the Glock factory knows about this problem. I’m further convinced that Glock engineering has known about it for many years. It’s just that this sort of awareness and revelation isn’t common knowledge (or widely accepted) on the Internet. Right now you’re posting on a, ‘cult website’ with a very strong fanboy membership base. If it weren’t for a, perhaps, too well-developed social conscience, I’d do the smart thing, too, and remain silent.

In that other thread where you posted objections to my prior comments on barrel/slide gap, I told you to do a few trigger jobs, and then, ‘get back to me’. I could just as easily have told you that if I had: a couple of diamond files, an extra-fine India stone, and a Dremel tool I could very easily remove that gap you seem so fascinated with; and I could do it in less than 20 minutes’ time! You know, what you think right now; and what you’re going to think after you’ve been around here for, say, 5 or 6 years will be (I hope!) entirely different realizations.

Anytime repeated on/off pressure is applied to the juncture between a Glock’s sear, ‘kick plate’, and the smooth bearing surface of the striker (FP) lug the potential for slippage is present. A lot of people think that Glock’s striker (FP) safety is 100%; but that’s NOT true; and the bad experiences I had with my early third generation G-21’s proved this to me, as well as to a lot of other G-21 owners of the day, too. The striker safety can be pulsed or jarred and overridden. (A lot depends on what position the pistol is in when it AD’s, too: e.g., with the pistol horizontal rather than vertical.)

In the OP’s accidental discharge (or, ‘negligent discharge’ if you prefer Marine Corps terminology) I’d be curious to know if a change in temperature or humidity were involved? I’d, also, like to know how much force was used in putting that (holstered) pistol down?

I’ve been carrying and very frequently drawing from several different Blackhawk SERPA holsters for the past two years - NEVER A PROBLEM! Then again, I don’t have any bad, or largely unskilled, firearm handling habits. My trigger finger isn’t, ‘straight’ when I draw; it’s, 'ARROW STRAIGHT' and instantly goes against the frame and immediately above the trigger guard.

The right way to overcome the tendency of a Blackhawk SERPA holster to, ‘lock’ the pistol in place while you press the release button inward is to slap down the web of your gun hand, hard, into the top of the backstrap AND continue to press downward BEFORE you begin the reverse upward motion of the draw. Then you’ve got to have the: experience, training, and conditioning to KEEP YOUR TRIGGER FINGER, 'ARROW STRAIGHT' as the pistol is, both, withdrawn from or returned to the holster.

This whole situation rather angers me! I find myself living in a world where everybody wants instant personal gratification, and easy instantaneous success. Nobody wants to wait, anymore. Nobody wants to put any real intellectual effort into learning anything, either. Like a good computer program people want all the necessary skill and prerequisite knowledge to come to them, ‘intuitively’ - Well, no wonder people end up shooting themselves; and, ‘Why’ should the gun, or the holster company always be to blame? There is no adequate defense against human: impatience, impulse, fearlessness, or just plain good old fashioned sloth and stupidity.

It really, ‘frosts my cookies’ to have to buy a gun with a safety warning like, ‘Read The Owner’s Manual’ deeply stamped into the barrel or frame. Anyone who is THAT FRIGG ‘IN STUPID shouldn’t be handling a gun in the first place!

To my mind it’s an insult to have to draw a gun and see a large blocky warning stamped into the frame that reads, ‘WARNING: This gun can fire with the magazine removed.’ None of the guns I grew up with had any such warnings on them; AND we weren’t always shooting ourselves with them, either!

Instead we knew our weapons; we made the effort, and took the time needed, in order to learn their particular operating characteristics well - Very well. We had SELF-DISCIPLINE, as well as far more willingness to accept PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY than I see in most other people today! Accidents weren't automatically the gun's fault, or the holster's fault; it was YOUR FAULT, instead! (Something Tex Grubner has, rather admirably, already, 'manned up' to.)

In a similar vein, I can’t just give you what I know about Glock pistols; you’re going to have to learn these things for yourself. Until, and whether or not, you do my posts, and your subsequent replies can’t be anything but antithetical. This is the only time you’re going to see me say this, though. I won’t repeat the explanation.
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:37   #111
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Thank you for the good info on striker pre-loading with the trigger at rest.

As to holsters:

1) I have some plastic holsters made by 3 or 4 companies that collectively I think are pieces of plastic shiest. The ones for Glocks do in fact hold the gun and with the paddle systems are "useable" at best. The belt loop systems suck. They all hold the gun away from your body and are noisy as all get out.

1a) When asking people why they buy them, it is always they were cheap, I didn't have to wait to order it, you can put the gun back easy, they are Tacti-Kool just like my kahki pants.

1b) I only bought one of these. The rest were freebies of one kind or another. The one I bought is for a Ruger Competition semi-auto .22 that has a red dot mounted on it's receiver. No leather for that puppy.

1c) It isn't that these plastic holsters work or don't work, its that their construction begs for some retention system. Then Rube Goldberg devices start showing up. U shaped clevis' over the top, push buttons, form fitting to trigger guards.

2) Leather holsters: they rule. They draw the gun tight to your body, are flexible, cover trigger guards properly, and are usually comfortable and always quiet. Thumb breaks work is you need more than open top retention.

2a) For Glocks, I have one each of a DeSantis open top semi-pancake style lined with suede that uses a rubber tension screw to restrict other than straight up drawing. One each of M26, M19, M22, M35 size.

2b) If you need a decent belt holster, Desantis is the way to go. Hell, if you can afford the gun, buy it a decent holster.

3) If you need to be Tacti-Kool, get a military M9 flap system and use a Glock M35. Then you will be Kool.

Last edited by LampShadeActual; 12-04-2012 at 06:40..
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:51   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SARDG View Post
There is no "sear" in a Glock and it's unfortunate that Alan Ramsey referred to "sear engagement". The Armorer's Manual refers to "Engagement" as "the relationship between the raised back portion of the trigger bar and its contact with the firing pin lug". I will concede that the "raised back portion of the trigger bar" in a Glock, serves the purpose of a sear in other guns and I often explain it that way. All that doesn't change the fact that there is no sear in a Glock!


Alan Ramsey isn't just simply another Armorer or Glock Instructor - he is in fact head of Glock Professional/Training. By relating the trigger bar to a sear, it may bring home the similarities between the Glock TB and other gun’s sears - but Glocks in fact do not contain sears!
I guess I was correct on that one, I do research
before I post. I don't repeat what someone at the
LDS said in a circle jerk. And I have a Glock armorers manual,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post

That I said (and have repeatedly said, before) is obvious. Neither do I care how you carry your 1911. The world doesn’t have a superabundance of either wise, or particularly cautious men; nor do I expect it to anytime soon. As long as you don’t live next door to me and mine how you carry is not an issue (to me).
So you can't tell me why we shouldn't carry a Glock
(or 1911) in condition 1??


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post
In that other thread where you posted objections to my prior comments on barrel/slide gap, I told you to do a few trigger jobs, and then, ‘get back to me’.
I told you not to assume what I do or know.
Back in the early 90's I bought all the tools to do my
own trigger jobs from Brownells. The sear jig, don't
remember the brand was black parkerized and had
a variaty of pin holes to do any sear and rollers on top
to guide the stones. First one came out perfect at 3.5 lbs.
I learned about refitting the thumb safty on that one
as I had hammer follow dropping it to the safty ledge.

I also learned how to detail strip a series 80 colt during that.

So I don't need to get back to you about anything involving
firearms least of all Glock, the most simple gun design made.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post
In a similar vein, I can’t just give you what I know about Glock pistols; you’re going to have to learn these things for yourself. Until, and whether or not, you do my posts, and your subsequent replies can’t be anything but antithetical. This is the only time you’re going to see me say this, though. I won’t repeat the explanation.
I think I covered that above, and I find your statment arrogant
and your post rather long winded to "try" and make a point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LampShadeActual View Post
Thank you for the good info on striker pre-loading with the trigger at rest.

As to holsters:

1) I have some plastic holsters made by 3 or 4 companies that collectively I think are pieces of plastic shiest. The ones for Glocks do in fact hold the gun and with the paddle systems are "useable" at best. The belt loop systems suck. They all hold the gun away from your body and are noisy as all get out.



2) Leather holsters: they rule. They draw the gun tight to your body, are flexible, cover trigger guards properly, and are usually comfortable and always quiet. Thumb breaks work is you need more than open top retention.
I agree, I have a Milt Sparks Nelson Legacy (for the late Bruce Nelson)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PEC-Memphis View Post
The instructors at the armorers school.
Read the first quote on this post, no sear in a Glock
or in the Glock armorers manual.
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Last edited by clarkz71; 12-04-2012 at 10:06..
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:15   #113
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First, thank god no one got hurt!

Like most people say, something had to have pull the trigger.

Also, in the future, a safer practice would be to remove the weapon from the holster and unload it and then take off the holster. Never handle a holster with a firearm inside.

Its very unlikely that its the glock since the functionality of a glock and safety mechanism would not allow a AD in the described circumstances. Even if it was poorly modified.

I dont think its the holster, looking at my blackhawk, bladetech, comptac, glock, other generic holsters............I cant see anything close that would pull the trigger.

I think when the OP holstered his weapon into the holster, he might have had a string or some clothes caught inside with slight tension and when he removed the holster, the trigger got pulled by whatever was holding onto it.

Also, many time people do not realize their trigger was touched with a finger during an AD..............not saying this is the case since we were not there, but I dont think this is likely with the blackhawk.

Point to consider: Guns dont fire themselves, holsters dont fire guns..........its human intervention generally cause such dilemma. I would think if it was the holster then why did the gun choose to fire just when it was taken off? Seem like if the holster had something to press on the trigger then it would have happened at the time of inserting the weapon.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:27   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
...I told you not to assume what I do or know...
Didn't we tell you, your knowledge and experience on 'anything' is measured here by your post count and years as a forum member! And although I do not personally know you or your skill level at anything, I am quite certain your knowledge and experience is inferior to mine and what's-his-name's.

Find cheek, insert tongue...
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:39   #115
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Two holsters I trust 100%...

Theis ($60 - own one for all my carry guns - G26/23, S&W Shield, S&W 642)

General Glocking

Bianchi Model 59 Special Agent ($85 - for open carry/OWB)

General Glocking
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:57   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SARDG View Post
Didn't we tell you, your knowledge and experience on 'anything' is measured here by your post count and years as a forum member! And although I do not personally know you or your skill level at anything, I am quite certain your knowledge and experience is inferior to mine and what's-his-name's.

Find cheek, insert tongue...
Thank you, I know exactly what you're saying. .

I heard alot of this though on some of his posts. .
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:51   #117
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Originally Posted by Landsharkleather View Post
Or get a leather holster. Leather being softer would never be able to engage a glock trigger. Just my two cents.
O RLLY?

http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/fi...al-discharges/
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:00   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PVolk View Post
He didn't say to buy a worn out leather holster
That's the point of your link.

SAFETY WARNING! Worn Leather Holsters Can Cause Accidental Discharges!

A good leather holster like Milt Sparks are pricey ($140)
but they'll last 20 years.

A cheap leather holster will result in an AD/ND

I add in ND because you should always inspect your
gear just like your pistol for wear and damage.
If you continued to wear a worn-out holster that's an ND
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:12   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
He didn't say to buy a worn out leather holster
That's the point of your link.
I understand that completely. I own leather as well as a SERPA.

But he didn't mention quality vs cheap leather or stiff vs soft. He simply stated leather could never engage the trigger, which obviously isn't true.

Either way, I wasn't trying to castrate the guy. That article simply came to mind after reading his post.
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:23   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCHeel View Post
This is NOT the reason trainers ban the holster. They ban the holster because people can't keep their finger off the trigger while drawing due to poor technique.

There is no way a SERPA holster without defects could depress the trigger. You need to have gun checked to make sure all the safeties are functioning properly.
I agree.

If I was a betting man, I'd bet on this being as issue with the gun. I've been using several different Blackhawks and SERPAs for years in C1 and I've never had issues. I've also spent lots of time practicing drawing properly and safely and I've used those holsters in timed practical matches as well. Never once had an issue even when "rushing".
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:33   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PVolk View Post
I understand that completely. I own leather as well as a SERPA.

But he didn't mention quality vs cheap leather or stiff vs soft. He simply stated leather could never engage the trigger, which obviously isn't true.

Either way, I wasn't trying to castrate the guy. That article simply came to mind after reading his post.
OK, I got you. We're on the same page then.
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Old 12-04-2012, 11:46   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LampShadeActual View Post

As to holsters:

1) I have some plastic holsters made by 3 or 4 companies that collectively I think are pieces of plastic shiest. The ones for Glocks do in fact hold the gun and with the paddle systems are "useable" at best. The belt loop systems suck. They all hold the gun away from your body and are noisy as all get out.

1a) When asking people why they buy them, it is always they were cheap, I didn't have to wait to order it, you can put the gun back easy, they are Tacti-Kool just like my kahki pants.

1b) I only bought one of these. The rest were freebies of one kind or another. The one I bought is for a Ruger Competition semi-auto .22 that has a red dot mounted on it's receiver. No leather for that puppy.

1c) It isn't that these plastic holsters work or don't work, its that their construction begs for some retention system. Then Rube Goldberg devices start showing up. U shaped clevis' over the top, push buttons, form fitting to trigger guards.

2) Leather holsters: they rule. They draw the gun tight to your body, are flexible, cover trigger guards properly, and are usually comfortable and always quiet. Thumb breaks work is you need more than open top retention.

2a) For Glocks, I have one each of a DeSantis open top semi-pancake style lined with suede that uses a rubber tension screw to restrict other than straight up drawing. One each of M26, M19, M22, M35 size.

2b) If you need a decent belt holster, Desantis is the way to go. Hell, if you can afford the gun, buy it a decent holster.

3) If you need to be Tacti-Kool, get a military M9 flap system and use a Glock M35. Then you will be Kool.
I don't agree with your assessments of kydex vs leather.

I have several high quality leather holsters including TT Gunleather, UBG, FIST and DM Bullard. I also have several kydex holsters including Garret Industries, AHolsters, CompTac and X Concealment.

I feel the retention systems (compression screw) used on these kydex holsters work as advertised. I have never had a problem with any of my weapons coming out of the holster. They also keep the holsters very tight against the body and they are not noisy. The only time they make any sound is when I draw my pistol, or if I bump into something.

On the other hand, every single one of the leather holsters squeak. I have gone online looking for solutions and contacted the manufacturers. So far, nothing I have tried has worked to resolve the squeak. For that reason, I do not use them right now.

It's possible the kydex holsters you were given were cheap and that has influenced your decision. I have the opposite feeling based on what has happened with quality leather holsters.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:01   #123
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Questions for the OP:

1. When you left the holster with the gun in it on the table, was your hand still touching it when the discharge happened or it happened when your hand was not touching the holster ?

2. I would assume that you know how to lubricate your Glock. No offense intended, just for the heck of the conversation I would like to leave the assumptions aside - did you cleaned the gun when you brought it home from the store, did you remove all the anti-seize compound from it ?

3. In the same line - did you lubricate the gun before you first fire it and are you positive any of the lubrication (what are you using anyway ?) did not go into the firing pin's channel and respectively into the safety pin's hole ?

Understandably, such topic will draw lots of attention... Judging by the number of views and 5 pages of really valuable info coming from experience and some well respected members of this forum I was able to grasp on the semantics of the difference between Glock not having part called "sear" and having part that incorporates the same function... Of course, as a person that doesn't know everything about the subject, I will like to see the d!(K measuring competition being set aside and someone to elaborate little bit in some subjects as for example:

1. If hypothetically the holster is the reason for the discharge, what are the mechanics of it, how it could happened ?

2. If the mechanics of the gun are the hypothetical cause of the discharge, how this will happened with the pistol only or with the pistol inserted in the holster...?

3. How about if the OP's hand touches the holster, how this would change any of the mechanics of the gun or the holster... ?
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:30   #124
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Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
I agree, I have a Milt Sparks Nelson Legacy (for the late Bruce Nelson)
And I have a couple of REAL Bruce Nelson holsters from back in the day when he taught me to shoot the 1911. He was a heck of a shooter and a great instructor. He was one of the first, if not the very first, to mold leather as a means of obtaining retention. I still use his OWB with my Colt Government Combat and I use his magazine pouches with all of my 1911s.

Richard
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Old 12-04-2012, 13:55   #125
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Originally Posted by PVolk View Post
I agree.

If I was a betting man, I'd bet on this being as issue with the gun. I've been using several different Blackhawks and SERPAs for years in C1 and I've never had issues. I've also spent lots of time practicing drawing properly and safely and I've used those holsters in timed practical matches as well. Never once had an issue even when "rushing".
Please explain to me the malfunction that could cause a Glock to fire a round without the trigger being pulled.
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