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Old 12-12-2012, 22:09   #541
WilliamDahl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
The price should be a good indication of whether then gun is new or not. A used gun would not be at "new" pricing.
Not necessarily... I've been looking for a G20 and I've seen the new ones going for $525 and the used ones going for the same amount (although not necessarily at the same place).
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Old 12-12-2012, 22:28   #542
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Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
Only when they resell it as new. Used is used. They lied
That's also called fraud.
If the gun had never been fired, it's quite possible that it could still be classified as "new". For example, cars are classified as "new" even if they have been driven thousands of miles, as long as it has never been registered in that state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
Worse yet the pistol was unsafe, someone could have been killed.
That is correct, but it doesn't make it fraud nor does it necessarily make the company guilty of negligence.

Just think how many other items are sold at stores, then returned, and still sold as "new".

And what sort of "damages" could the person even claim anyway? A couple of bucks for some sheetrock mud and a few more bucks for some matching paint? Maybe even a couple more bucks for the gas to get tot he home improvement store and a new holster? Maybe a couple of bucks to ship the firearm off to Glock, but the store could claim that he should have brought the gun back into the store, so that might not be reimbursable. It will cost money to file a lawsuit, even in small claims court where you don't need a lawyer. It's not worth the trouble.

At worst, unless you have evidence to prove that the firearm was previously sold to another individual who will admit that he did modifications to the firearm and that the firearm might not have been put back together correctly afterwards, the company can claim that they received the firearm in that condition from Glock. No company has 100% quality control, so the judge or jury might very well side with the company. The company could also claim that it could have been the buyer who made the modification and that might also be enough doubt that the judge or jury would not find for the plaintiff in the case. Of course, the company could counter sue and the buyer might even get stuck with the company's legal bills if the judge or jury finds for the company. All in all, there are a lot more potential problems with pursuing this via legal channels than there are with just chalking it up as a learning experience and not doing business with that company again.

The OP stated that he had owned the firearm for a month and I believe that he either said or maybe just implied that he had been carrying it all that time. He also stated that he had had no problems with it during this time. I would assume that this means that he has been firing it during this time. Surely someone wouldn't start carrying a firearm without getting a bit of range time with it, would they? So, everything works great for a month... Even if the firearm was returned by a customer and the store gave it an functional examination, it's unlikely that they would have noticed a problem with it. You can't expect a store to completely disassemble a firearm after someone returns it if it's obvious that it has never been previously fired. Sorry, but I don't think that it would be appropriate to pursue legal action against the gun store. There is not enough evidence to support the assumption by many here that the company sold a defective firearm either through intent or negligence.

But feel free to go ahead and sue for any perceived slight... Just remember that you were warmed that both parties lose when you get lawyers involved in something...

Last edited by WilliamDahl; 12-12-2012 at 22:53..
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Old 12-12-2012, 22:30   #543
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Originally Posted by WilliamDahl View Post
Not necessarily... I've been looking for a G20 and I've seen the new ones going for $525 and the used ones going for the same amount (although not necessarily at the same place).
I agree, but in this case we are talking about comparing within a specific store within a recent timeframe. Fin's prices are pretty fixed unless they have a sale or if you cashed in a birthday discount coupon (which would be reflected on the receipt)
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Old 12-12-2012, 22:32   #544
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The Ohio Attorney General's Office is who you should get up with.

Info: http://www.ohiolemonlaw.com/ocll-site/ocll-cplaw.html

Contact Info: http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/
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Old 12-12-2012, 23:48   #545
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Wow! 22 pages so far. I too thank the OP for standing up and taking the flack and passing on the information on the incident.

I'm now reading Paul M. Barrett's new book, Glock, The Rise of America's Gun. The OP will for sure enjoy Chapter 12 "Ka-Boom" about how Glock has handled ADs.

Seems lucky to get their help on this. If it is a used gun the/a previous owner may have registered it with Glock...and as previously mentioned the case bag should have the born date...or the serial number would show about when it was made.

I too just purchased a new Glock 26 Gen 4 and got a quick lesson in hot brass to the face and "not our problem" from Glock customer service. Is now a Glock/Apex....

Just sayin, bad out of the box happens a lot...no matter what others may believe.

Again - good on ya for sharing the incident. Thank You. Gotta go look at my SERPA holsters now...
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Old 12-13-2012, 00:48   #546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cglaspel View Post
Ok, talked to a Glock rep today. Glock replaced multiple parts. They informed me that it looked as if their was a trigger job done to it at some point in time. No other info from them on the issue though. I definitely did not do this...so it is for sure used. They said I should have my pistol back in 2 days though! So that is a plus.

So at this point in time I think I need to begin dealing with Fin Feather Fur in Ashland about selling me a used weapon as new.
I'm sorry, but this story still seems suspect. I've been reading this thread from the beginning and it is starting to seem more and more like bull****. Had the issue been holster-related I would have been more likely to believe it...

You say on page 5, "Also I had taken this pistol out a few days back and put about 150 rounds through it without any issue."

I want to you explain to me how you fired 150 rounds through your 23 without noticing that something was drastically different about your new Glock. And don't say "I thought it was just because it was a Gen4" like you said before. If the trigger was as light as you say, wouldn't have that been a cause for concern?

In your original post, you said that you inspected the Glock after the AD incident and it "seemed normal". You then say on page 2, "Also have field stripped and checked everything on the glock and it all seems to be perfect."

A trigger job that has removed so much material that a tiny bump can cause the pistol to fire would surely have been noticeable AND you would be easily able to recreate the incident. There is no miraculous angle that could have caused the gun to fire. The trigger is either so light that it either fires from being bumped, or does not.

So your story is that someone bought the gun from the store, did the .25 cent trigger job but did too much, then installed the firing pin safety spring sideways, then returned the gun, and then it was sold as new? And that is assuming that the partially tensioned striker still has the force to ignite a primer, which is debatable at best.

And then you fired at least 150 rounds through it without noticing anything different about the trigger or action?

How did you fire 150 rounds of .40 through this gun and not notice that the trigger was faulty?

And how did the gun fire if the firing pin safety spring was bent?

How was the firing pin safety able to move out of the way for the striker to engage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyparson View Post
Its still going to be an uphill Battle. No lawyer will take the case on consignment. He will have to pay the fees out of his pocket and hope and pray he gets the money back. It's gone to be hard to prove the gun was sold to him like it was.

Exactly. 99% of stores have a no-return policy on firearms for EXACTLY THIS SPECIFIC REASON. Liability.

I think the OP bought a new gun, did the .25 trigger job, took too much off and decided to neglect it until it shot a hole in his wall.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:04   #547
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Originally Posted by INEEDMILK View Post
I'm sorry, but this story still seems suspect. I've been reading this thread from the beginning and it is starting to seem more and more like bull****. Had the issue been holster-related I would have been more likely to believe it...

You say on page 5, "Also I had taken this pistol out a few days back and put about 150 rounds through it without any issue."

I want to you explain to me how you fired 150 rounds through your 23 without noticing that something was drastically different about your new Glock. And don't say "I thought it was just because it was a Gen4" like you said before. If the trigger was as light as you say, wouldn't have that been a cause for concern?

In your original post, you said that you inspected the Glock after the AD incident and it "seemed normal". You then say on page 2, "Also have field stripped and checked everything on the glock and it all seems to be perfect."

A trigger job that has removed so much material that a tiny bump can cause the pistol to fire would surely have been noticeable AND you would be easily able to recreate the incident. There is no miraculous angle that could have caused the gun to fire. The trigger is either so light that it either fires from being bumped, or does not.

So your story is that someone bought the gun from the store, did the .25 cent trigger job but did too much, then installed the firing pin safety spring sideways, then returned the gun, and then it was sold as new? And that is assuming that the partially tensioned striker still has the force to ignite a primer, which is debatable at best.

And then you fired at least 150 rounds through it without noticing anything different about the trigger or action?

How did you fire 150 rounds of .40 through this gun and not notice that the trigger was faulty?

And how did the gun fire if the firing pin safety spring was bent?

How was the firing pin safety able to move out of the way for the striker to engage?




Exactly. 99% of stores have a no-return policy on firearms for EXACTLY THIS SPECIFIC REASON. Liability.

I think the OP bought a new gun, did the .25 trigger job, took too much off and decided to neglect it until it shot a hole in his wall.
To be honest at this point in time, If you somehow are still skeptical about this. Then there is nothing I can do or so for you to believe. As I have stated multiple times, I have not messed with this gun at all. If you want to continue to play detective and speculate etc thats fine. I really couldn't care less. I am just truly amazed that you really truly believe that I would go through all this trouble to fabricate something just for the hell of it.

It makes me very curious as to why you are very paranoid and think that its some big mystery... It really isnt quite that hard....as I have stated, I obviously was sold a used gun as new, PO messed it up and I am left with the aftermath.

No the pistol did not feel much different besides the fact that it was a lighter feeling trigger. I took it out to the range 2 times and fired a couple boxes through it for functionality etc and thats it. Did not have any issues whatsoever.

Yes when I took the pistol apart to clean it I did not notice anything wrong with it. I DID NOT put it under a microscope and search every nook and cranny to make sure everything was perfect because as far as I knew, this was a BRAND NEW GUN. Why would I??

My guess is the PO messed this up slightly, and my limited amount of rounds/carry possibly made the issue worse. This is not my only carry gun and definitely not my only range gun. So I hadnt taken it apart and micro-checked everything. That and I am not a Glock Armorer nor am I mechanically inclined to do trigger jobs etc.

Once again I would not waste my time with all of this for no reason...I am just a regular guy that bought a gun advertised NEW and ended up with a messed up Used gun instead, which then had an AD.

Feel free to keep speculating and trying to say I am BS-ing for the fun of it?
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:00   #548
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Certainly glad no one was injured. A long story short. I did not like glocks, tried 2 of them and sold them. My department transitioned to glocks, sent me to Glock school. bought a gen 4 19. Had all kind of problems with it as someone was going to fix it up with trigger bars, springs, and connectors. Gun would not shoot. Replaced with GLOCK parts back to original. No problems. Had to carry the 19 in the front pocket of my overalls one day, tripped and flew up in the air, landed on my right front side. gun did not go off. Glocks are made to take a licking and keep on ticking. I feel your problem was either as your original update, used glock with after market parts, or possibly the holster. ' I LOVE GLOCKS.......IF GIRLS WERE GLOCKS, I WOULD KISS THEM ALL........"
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:04   #549
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I apologize to the rest of you for my somewhat agitated last post, I am just getting sick of these people continuing to be skeptical and saying im bullsh%$$#%^ you all for the fun of it. I mean come on, quit wasting my time with that. I have no reason to fabricate this.... I just don't get people.
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:18   #550
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cglaspel View Post
To be honest at this point in time, If you somehow are still skeptical about this. Then there is nothing I can do or so for you to believe. As I have stated multiple times, I have not messed with this gun at all. If you want to continue to play detective and speculate etc thats fine. I really couldn't care less. I am just truly amazed that you really truly believe that I would go through all this trouble to fabricate something just for the hell of it.

My guess is the PO messed this up slightly, and my limited amount of rounds/carry possibly made the issue worse. ?
I know for a fact there are gun shops that take in guns
on trade and if they "look" new, they'll put them out as new.

Say I buy a new G17 gen4. I get home and read about all
the BTF and eratic ejection problems. I say screw this and
I take the gun back to the LGS. Is he going to give me 100%
refund or full value to trade for anther gun? No, because
it's now used gun. No different then buying a new car, driving
down the road 5 miles and coming back to the dealer.

They can't sell it as new now, it's had it's first owner.
Only the first owner gets a new car, or gun

I for one believe the OP (cglaspel) that he was sold a used gun
as new and that the first owner modded the gun.
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:28   #551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cglaspel View Post
I apologize to the rest of you for my somewhat agitated last post, I am just getting sick of these people continuing to be skeptical and saying im bullsh%$$#%^ you all for the fun of it. I mean come on, quit wasting my time with that. I have no reason to fabricate this.... I just don't get people.
I want to know who tampered with the gun.

For a long time I carried a Glock that I bought used, appendix carry, in a Remora holster. I was under the the impression that Glocks don't go off unless the trigger is pulled.

From this thread I can see that maybe I was crazy. If a bad trigger job can cause a Glock to just go off, I no longer will carry one like that.

Who done it? I want to know.
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Last edited by NMG26; 12-13-2012 at 09:30..
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:40   #552
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Originally Posted by NMG26 View Post
I want to know who tampered with the gun.

For a long time I carried a Glock that I bought used, appendix carry, in a Remora holster. I was under the the impression that Glocks don't go off unless the trigger is pulled.

From this thread I can see that maybe I was crazy. If a bad trigger job can cause a Glock to just go off, I no longer will carry one like that.

Who done it? I want to know.
Trust me, I KNOW what you mean lol. I am hopefully going to find out soon enough!
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:41   #553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
I know for a fact there are gun shops that take in guns
on trade and if they "look" new, they'll put them out as new.

Say I buy a new G17 gen4. I get home and read about all
the BTF and eratic ejection problems. I say screw this and
I take the gun back to the LGS. Is he going to give me 100%
refund or full value to trade for anther gun? No, because
it's now used gun. No different then buying a new car, driving
down the road 5 miles and coming back to the dealer.

They can't sell it as new now, it's had it's first owner.
Only the first owner gets a new car, or gun

I for one believe the OP (cglaspel) that he was sold a used gun
as new and that the first owner modded the gun.
Thank you, I appreciate it!
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:45   #554
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:57   #555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMG26 View Post
I want to know who tampered with the gun.

For a long time I carried a Glock that I bought used, appendix carry, in a Remora holster. I was under the the impression that Glocks don't go off unless the trigger is pulled.

From this thread I can see that maybe I was crazy. If a bad trigger job can cause a Glock to just go off, I no longer will carry one like that.

Who done it? I want to know.
A Glock produced after April 1992 (or one produced prior but with the proper upgrades listed in the 1992 Glock Technical Bulletin) in proper functioning condition will not go off unless the trigger is pulled...or at least nobody has found a way to make it happen yet.

A Glock that has been dickered with is a completely different animal and all bets are off. All it takes is a tiny bit of common sense to understand that a person can dicker up something...anything.

And it is really unimportant for you to know who. What are you going to do, write their name down and not buy guns that they have touched but still blindly trust all other guns that someone has messed with? Stop getting yourself stuck in tunnel-vision, step back, and understand the big picture people.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:04   #556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cglaspel View Post
I apologize to the rest of you for my somewhat agitated last post, I am just getting sick of these people continuing to be skeptical and saying im bullsh%$$#%^ you all for the fun of it. I mean come on, quit wasting my time with that. I have no reason to fabricate this.... I just don't get people.
I take what you say as truthful, no problem.

But you might want to be ready if you take it back to the store for the kind of doubt you're seeing here. If you know the people they'll probably trust you. But, if they are just a big chain, they may be looking to cover their rears by blaming you.

Good luck, hope you get it resolved.

Dave
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:06   #557
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Originally Posted by dosei View Post
And it is really unimportant for you to know who. What are you going to do, write their name down and not buy guns that they have touched but still blindly trust all other guns that someone has messed with? Stop getting yourself stuck in tunnel-vision, step back, and understand the big picture people.
Who does matter. Was it a trigger job done by a certified Glock smith?

What matters. What kind of trigger job can make this happen?

Can I trust a used Glock ever again, even if it is checked out by a professional? It matters. Unless you think getting your nutz shot off does not matter.

Tunnel vision? Yes it is what this thread is about. One specific thing.



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Old 12-13-2012, 10:19   #558
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Originally Posted by NMG26 View Post
I want to know who tampered with the gun.

For a long time I carried a Glock that I bought used, appendix carry, in a Remora holster. I was under the the impression that Glocks don't go off unless the trigger is pulled.

From this thread I can see that maybe I was crazy. If a bad trigger job can cause a Glock to just go off, I no longer will carry one like that.

Who done it? I want to know.
Yet you still see everybody and their mother doing .25 cent trigger jobs.

Look it's really easy to determine if this weapon had two owners. Get the ATF involved...and it's a done deal. I have my doubts that the weapon was used and sold as new from this store. I'll be standing by for the results.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:28   #559
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[QUOTE=kodiakpb;19730492]Look it's really easy to determine if this weapon had two owners. Get the ATF involved...and it's a done deal.

Yeah, it's a done deal...

ATF will politely tell you to seek your information elsewhere and they will have nothing to do with it unless the weapon was used in the commission of a crime.

ATF does not keep any records whatsoever on firearms legally purchased from an exisiting FFL.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:39   #560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMG26 View Post
Who does matter. Was it a trigger job done by a certified Glock smith?

What matters. What kind of trigger job can make this happen?

Can I trust a used Glock ever again, even if it is checked out by a professional? It matters. Unless you think getting your nutz shot off does not matter...
I've never heard of a Certified (by Glock) gunsmith. Glock certifies armorers and advanced armorers. Being a Certified Glock Armorer, I have seen the work of butchers who claim to be gunsmiths familiar with Glocks and who clearly don't have the most basic understanding of even simple parts replacement.

At any rate, Certified (by Glock) Armorers are not authorized to make modifications that take a Glock outside of factory specs - and that most certainly includes 'trigger jobs' of any type. Those who attend the Glock Armorer's Class hoping to get insight into various Glock mods will walk away disappointed.

When I am asked by friends to do a trigger job, I tell them that I will sit down with them as an individual - not an Armorer - and guide them along as they do their own trigger job. That's the best I can do and that alone discourages 99% of the people who ask.

In addition, Glock Armorers are also directed to install the factory parts that they sell - not just hand over parts-for-profit to a Glock owner.
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