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Old 12-12-2012, 13:05   #521
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Great conclusion to a somewhat long thread laced with
much usefull information. .
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Old 12-12-2012, 13:13   #522
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^^^ This sums it up very nicely! Much appreciated post LampShadeActual. I am now just trying to figure out why FF&F BS'ed me and going to see how they make it right. I definitely will not be doing business with them after this. Atleast now everyone knows about their business practices.

Sidenote- The girlfriend is very happy with me. After I spackled/painted the living room wall, I was charged with touching up other areas that needed re-painted as well. lol.
Amazing that any responsible dealer would do something like that. It almost sounds like a prosecutable offense. I see no reason they cannot be forced to give you a new Glock 23 with a factory seal intact. Good to hear everything worked out for you. The 23 is an amazing piece of work, and I know you will enjoy it now. I don't know how you get back to the confidence level you need, but I have carried mine IWB front, right over my boys, and I have no qualms (only at times where I know a quick response would be needed and that a threat is not uncommon). Good luck.
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Old 12-12-2012, 14:09   #523
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Glad that part of it got resolved through Glock. OP did you have to come out of pocket for shipping or repairs? Good composure on your part for sticking through all the pages on this thread and some possible finger pointing and coming back and keeping us informed on your situation. Let us know what the gun shop tells you and I hope they cooperate with you.
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Old 12-12-2012, 14:44   #524
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What's really going to get entertaining is IF FF&F is able show paperwork that proves the gun is new... but that's a big "if". And if they can't, then they should be put out of business. As for a lawsuit, i'm pretty sure you have to show someone was harmed. I can't wait to hear what FF&F has to say.
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Old 12-12-2012, 15:46   #525
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You do need to address the issue with the seller. If they blow you off, file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. Glock can tell you where that gun went to when it left the factory. There is a paper trail for it on file with the BATF that the store cannot make go away.
Paper trail? Yes. Anything "on file" with ATF? Doubtful unless two or more handgun purchases were made by the customer at the same time.

Glock sells distributor (who is also an FFL and/or importer) 'x' number of handguns. LGS orders 'x' number of handguns from the distributor. Distributor keeps copy of LGS FFL on file. Gun is sold to customer with 4473 completed and retained by LGS until (A) the business ceases to exist or (B) the 4473 is surrendered to ATF if they has some reason to believe a firearm was used in a crime.

The only paper trail shows that serial number XYZ was purchased by Jerry's Outdoor Sports (distributor) from Glock who in turn sold serial number 123 to LGS w/FFL and LGS sold serial number XYZ to a customer. End of paper trail.

Last edited by Leigh; 12-12-2012 at 15:47..
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Old 12-12-2012, 15:52   #526
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What's really going to get entertaining is IF FF&F is able show paperwork that proves the gun is new....
Easy enough to prove as they should keep their invoices from their distributors.

However, that doesn't mean it wasn't monkeyed with AFTER the LGS received it from their distributor.
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Old 12-12-2012, 16:17   #527
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^^^ This sums it up very nicely! Much appreciated post LampShadeActual. I am now just trying to figure out why FF&F BS'ed me and going to see how they make it right. I definitely will not be doing business with them after this. Atleast now everyone knows about their business practices.

Sidenote- The girlfriend is very happy with me. After I spackled/painted the living room wall, I was charged with touching up other areas that needed re-painted as well. lol.
Alls well that ends well, and it sounds like you're satisfied with the outcome.

The issue that begs attention now is the misrepresentation by the dealer that the damaged Glock was new merchandise. I don't know what the statutes in your state say about such mischief, but I suspect the commercial code deals very specifically with such practices.

Because damage to the gun's primary safety system resulted in a near-tragic AD, some action against the dealer is warranted, in my view. The circumstances in your case point to negligence for selling a damaged firearm as new merchandise. The dealer must have some level of responsibility under the law to know the condition of merchandise offered for sale (new, used, stock, modified, working or not, etc.).

Selling a used gun as new is one matter, which could have been an honest, but unlawful, mistake. Knowingly selling a used gun that had been tampered with by a prior owner or a store employee as a new firearm (implying that the gun was safe pursuant to manufacturing QC standards) is quite another matter.

If someone intentionally broke the law, they should be dealt with quickly and as harshly as possible. A lawyer would know if the mischief was a matter to be pursued.







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Last edited by PhotoFeller; 12-12-2012 at 20:43..
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Old 12-12-2012, 17:38   #528
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Alls well that ends well, and it sounds like you're satisfied with the outcome.

The issue that begs attention now is the misrepresentation by the dealer that the damaged Glock was new merchandise. I don't know what the statutes in your state say about such mischief, but I suspect the commercial code deals very specifically with such practices.

Because damage to the gun's primary safety system resulted in a near-tragic AD, some action against the dealer is warranted, in my view. The circumstances in your case point to negligence for selling a damaged firearm as new merchandise. The dealer must have had some level of responsibility under the law to know the condition of merchandise offered for sale (new, used, stock, modified, working or not, etc.).

Selling a used gun as new is one matter, which could have been an honest, but unlawful, mistake. Knowingly selling a used gun that had been tampered with by a prior owner or a store employee as a new firearm (implying that the gun was safe pursuant to manufacturing QC standards) is quite another matter.

If someone intentionally broke the law, they should be dealt with quickly and as harshly as possible. A lawyer would know if the mischief was a matter to be pursued.
It seems to me that some people are just too willing to get lawyers involved in things. That's one of the reasons that our legal system is so screwed up and why things cost so much -- everyone covering their ass for liability.

Every sporting goods store that I've dealt with for as long as I can remember (i.e. for at least a couple of weeks) has had a "no return" policy on firearms. I don't remember if it used to be this way or not since I never really gave it any though since I never have even considered returning a firearm after I bought it.

The fact is that there are a lot of items that we buy that are listed as "new" when in fact they might have very well been previously bought and returned by another customer. Why should we treat firearms any different? We want the leftists to quit creating (unconstitutional) laws that discriminate against firearms (vs other tools that could also be deadly in certain situations), but here some of us are wanting to sue the store when possibly they resell a firearm that was returned to them by a customer. I might not know the best solution here, but I'm fairly certain that when you get lawyers involved, both parties end up losing.
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Old 12-12-2012, 17:46   #529
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but here some of us are wanting to sue the store when possibly they resell a firearm that was returned to them by a customer.
Only when they resell it as new. Used is used. They lied
That's also called fraud.

Worse yet the pistol was unsafe, someone could have been killed.
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Old 12-12-2012, 18:16   #530
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Sorry to hear about your experiences at Fin, Feather and Fur. I have shopped there when they were in their old building before they moved into the big one right next to I-71.

Definitely get in touch with the owners. My last interaction with them was positive. Many, many years ago I called them to see if they had a SAR-1 in stock and was told yes by the sales associate. I drove down from Cleveland only to be told that they hadn't had any in a few weeks. Wrote the owners and informed them about their salesman that was too lazy to actually check stock and they responded with a letter of apology, a gift certificate and a hat - hopefully you get the same level of attention from them now.

Fin, Feather and Fur is a pretty big store (especially the Ashland one) and they do move a lot of guns:

General Glocking

Nowadays I do most of my shopping at the Cleveland store and when I buy a firearm, they usually they go out back and pull it out of the box, still in the wrap. Used guns at the Fin are usually segregated to a different cabinet.

Again, sorry to hear that you may have been sold a used gun as new - I wish you luck in piecing the puzzle together and figuring out if that was indeed the case.

Last edited by Engineer; 12-12-2012 at 18:16..
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Old 12-12-2012, 18:33   #531
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THE HORSE IS DEAD!!!! STOP RIDING IT!!!!

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Old 12-12-2012, 19:41   #532
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Alter-ego, you sure look like one.
Is that a picture of Fins, Fat, Feathers? If so, it looks like they are all show. Like Gander Mountain. Tell them maybe they need to take a gander at your law firm, for selling you a harmfully damaged used firearm, passed off as a new one.
OP, get back on the phone with Glock and go higher up. You need serious documentation that this gun was trifled with, and that's no trifling matter. They have a minimal obligation to document what they observed and corrected, even though they are not liable for what seemingly occurred.
Document, document and then do it some more. Get it from the astute armorer that saw the issue. As much as I hate to suggest it, you probably need to lawyer up.
There is more than free stuff from a dispicable (love that word) gun shop at stake here.
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Old 12-12-2012, 19:49   #533
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Does your receipt you got with the Glock say new or used? Ive bought new Glocks and the receipt didn't say it was new or used. I'm just wondering how hard its going to be to prove they sold you a gun saying its new but in fact it was used. And can you prove the gun was sold to you like it was. I'm sure they will say it was fine when it left the store and you myst of messed with it and screwed it up. It's going to be an uphill battle.
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Old 12-12-2012, 19:57   #534
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So somebody screwed up the trigger? Suddenly I'm less confident in the trigger job I did on my G23 - minus connector, NY1 spring, smooth trigger. I might be re-installing the stock trigger, spring and connector.

Better to have larger groups than a hole in my wall, or my leg, or my ...
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Old 12-12-2012, 19:58   #535
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As for a lawsuit, i'm pretty sure you have to show someone was harmed.
My confidence in buying a used Glock has been harmed.






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Old 12-12-2012, 20:43   #536
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So somebody screwed up the trigger? Suddenly I'm less confident in the trigger job I did on my G23 - minus connector, NY1 spring, smooth trigger. I might be re-installing the stock trigger, spring and connector.

Better to have larger groups than a hole in my wall, or my leg, or my ...
If you perform the safety checks, including sear engagement (yes I said 'sear'), described in the armorers manual you will in every likelihood be ok. If you don't know how, get a good armorer to check it.

Your solution is equally valid - plain old stock for a CCW is (IMO) a good idea. I can shoot just as accurately with my stock trigger on a 23 as well as my 34, but a bit slower between splits (more PF in the .40 than the 9mm).

A friend made master in IDPA with a box stock 19, thumb break holster and WWB.
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Old 12-12-2012, 21:14   #537
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Does your receipt you got with the Glock say new or used? Ive bought new Glocks and the receipt didn't say it was new or used. I'm just wondering how hard its going to be to prove they sold you a gun saying its new but in fact it was used. And can you prove the gun was sold to you like it was. I'm sure they will say it was fine when it left the store and you myst of messed with it and screwed it up. It's going to be an uphill battle.
The price should be a good indication of whether then gun is new or not. A used gun would not be at "new" pricing.
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Old 12-12-2012, 21:15   #538
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If you perform the safety checks, including sear engagement (yes I said 'sear'), described in the armorers manual you will in every likelihood be ok. If you don't know how, get a good armorer to check it.

Your solution is equally valid - plain old stock for a CCW is (IMO) a good idea. I can shoot just as accurately with my stock trigger on a 23 as well as my 34, but a bit slower between splits (more PF in the .40 than the 9mm).

A friend made master in IDPA with a box stock 19, thumb break holster and WWB.
{ If you perform the safety checks, including sear engagement (yes I said 'sear')},that is after all the function that the cruciform provides in the Glock design. SJ 40
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Old 12-12-2012, 21:29   #539
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A friend made master in IDPA with a box stock 19, thumb break holster and WWB.
Kudos to him. If more folks concentrated on the their shooting instead of accessorizing.......
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Old 12-12-2012, 21:34   #540
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The price should be a good indication of whether then gun is new or not. A used gun would not be at "new" pricing.
Its still going to be an uphill Battle. No lawyer will take the case on consignment. He will have to pay the fees out of his pocket and hope and pray he gets the money back. It's gone to be hard to prove the gun was sold to him like it was.
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