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Old 12-12-2012, 00:06   #481
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Originally Posted by WilliamDahl View Post
I was thinking more like Condition 0.25... Maybe 0.125...

If I have a M1911 and it is cocked, but the safety is not on, then it is Condition 0 since all that is necessary for it to fire is for me to pull the trigger. The M1911 in this configuration is the definition of Condition 0. So, let's look at other firearms... The Glock in its normal carrying configuration also only requires someone to pull the trigger to make it fire... That sure looks like Condition 0 to me... If I have a semi-auto that is DAO or even DA/SA and there is one in the chamber and no thumb safety on it (or activated), it also only requires the pull of the trigger to make it fire. Same with a revolver operated in double action mode. These are Condition 0 also, but I suspect that most of us will agree that they are more forgiving of mistakes than the M1911 carried in that condition. In my opinion, the Glock is somewhere between the M1911 and a double action revolver or semi-auto. I guess it's all a matter of how much of a trigger pull is required for it fire. The Glock is a compromise between the light trigger pull of the M1911 and the heavier trigger pull of a DAO when in C0. I suspect that most people would agree that a M1911 carried in C0 is not particularly safe, whereas they would have have a problem with the carrying of a DAO semi-auto or revolver in that configuration. The Glock has a trigger pull somewhere between the two, so the safety falls somewhere in between the two also.

Now, if you modified a M1911 to have a significantly heavier pull than a Glock, which is safer? I believe that the default trigger pull on some M1911s is 4 lbs and the Glock might be as high as 8 lbs. I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm too far off the actual values. If you were to modify the M1911 to have a *20 lb* pull, would it be safer than the Glock? My Sig P229 supposedly has a 10 lb DAO pull and I have no problem carrying it without any sort of safety engaged. So, would a trigger pull that was double of the Sig's make it even more safe? Still, they're all C0, it's just the level of C0 that we are debating...

And here we though that we only had to worry about C0,1,2,3&4...

Maybe we can change it so that C0 has a trigger pull modifier (e.g. C0-4 would be a 4 lb trigger pull, C0-10, a 10-lb trigger pull, etc)... But then if you are carrying a DA/SA, you might need to put the double action and single action trigger pulls in the condition statement... So, let's say that we have a DA/SA Beretta with a 10 lb initial DA pull followed by a 5 lb SA pull... Maybe call it carrying it in C0-10-5? Starting to get a bit complicated... Time to poor another beer...
Don't pour that brew yet, WD, cause there is another factor in the complete equation: the length of trigger pull.

If the 1911 and the Glock both have a 5# pull, but the length of travel for the 1911 is 3/8" while the length of travel for the Glock is 5/8", which is safer? (You touch on this point in an earlier post, but not as thoroughly as usual.)

The difference in trigger travel of 1/4", or even if only 1/8", would seem to make the Glock safer. Agreed? If yes, go ahead and pour the beer.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 12-12-2012 at 00:19..
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:05   #482
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Don't pour that brew yet, WD, cause there is another factor in the complete equation: the length of trigger pull.

If the 1911 and the Glock both have a 5# pull, but the length of travel for the 1911 is 3/8" while the length of travel for the Glock is 5/8", which is safer? (You touch on this point in an earlier post, but not as thoroughly as usual.)

The difference in trigger travel of 1/4", or even if only 1/8", would seem to make the Glock safer. Agreed? If yes, go ahead and pour the beer.
Agreed, trigger pull does need to be referenced in the proposed condition numbering scheme... But should we measure from the center of the trigger or the end? For some firearms, it might not make a difference, but for others it might...

The question becomes then, which is safer -- a Glock with a 5 lb trigger and a 5/8" trigger pull or a hypothetical M1911 with a 20 lb trigger and a 3/8" trigger pull? At some point, it starts getting a bit subjective. What if the M1911 had a 40 lb trigger and a 1/16" trigger pull? The point of all of this is that even though the normal carry for a Glock is Condition 0, not all Condition 0s are equal.
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Old 12-12-2012, 04:19   #483
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Originally Posted by WilliamDahl View Post

The question becomes then, which is safer -- a Glock with a 5 lb trigger and a 5/8" trigger pull or a hypothetical M1911 with a 20 lb trigger and a 3/8" trigger pull? At some point, it starts getting a bit subjective. What if the M1911 had a 40 lb trigger and a 1/16" trigger pull? The point of all of this is that even though the normal carry for a Glock is Condition 0, not all Condition 0s are equal.

Glocks do have a 5 to 6 lb trigger pull, no 1911 has a 20 lb

I've had at least 20 1911's over the years and the worst
was a 8 lb pull. Not an accurate comparison.

In a hypothetical comparison, say if you caused the 1911
to have a 20 lb pull, then yes. It would be safer.

At the same time you can use a 8 ib connector in a Glock
with a NY2 trigger and have around a 10 lb pull, safe?

This is way off topic though, you have to much time on your hands.
Use some for research, I found this in 2 minutes.


Edit: from another thread................

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1437834

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorD View Post
there is a NY spring and a NY+ spring. I think the NYPD was the NY+- they were trying to get the pull to be close in weight to the revolvers they replaced so the trigger pull weight would be 10 pounds or so. all glock factory trigger springs including the NY and NY+ are drop in parts- detail strip, remove spring replace with spring of your choice
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Last edited by clarkz71; 12-12-2012 at 04:26..
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:48   #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamDahl View Post
Agreed, trigger pull does need to be referenced in the proposed condition numbering scheme... But should we measure from the center of the trigger or the end? For some firearms, it might not make a difference, but for others it might...

The question becomes then, which is safer -- a Glock with a 5 lb trigger and a 5/8" trigger pull or a hypothetical M1911 with a 20 lb trigger and a 3/8" trigger pull? At some point, it starts getting a bit subjective. What if the M1911 had a 40 lb trigger and a 1/16" trigger pull? The point of all of this is that even though the normal carry for a Glock is Condition 0, not all Condition 0s are equal.
You're comparing apples to oranges here. The condition of the "sear" if you will, is the cause of the discharge. In this conversation the OP layed his pistol down and it discharged. He claims no one pulled the trigger.
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Old 12-12-2012, 06:21   #485
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As is the nature of the beast I wonder if the GLOCK ARMORER replaced the Firing Pin Safety Spring or put it (old spring) in a bag for the return trip. But either way, the engagement is easy enough to determine to the casual Armorer with the right tools.

I have a problem with the pistol being called "New" but that is purely subjective I guess. I have to admit, that even an armorer can get the firing pin safety spring loaded sideways if they are not fairly cautious during the installation of the Firing Pin Safety.
As I recall, with the Firing Pin Safety spring sideways, the trigger pull feels a bit gritty and I would think the owner might be concerned about the pulling of said trigger.

I think GLOCK will come back with a completely refurbished pistol and a warning to only allow Certified Armorers to break down the two components beyound the field stripped stages.

IMO the triggerbar engagement will be found to have been tampered with thru either bending the cruciform or the infamous 25 cent trigger enhancement methods.

My extreme curiosity lays with the Drop Safety. The cruciform just cannot fall away from the firing pin lug during moments of viberations that I can tell with a functional trigger housing. So, did someone attempt to restructure the Spacer Sleeve in a hope to reduce trigger pull?

There are a lot of IFs to play with knowing what little we have been told. I really don't think we'll ever know the full story behind the whole event really and it isn't because of the OP. Just too much liability involved and too much time wasted in trying to investigate just "who did what."
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Old 12-12-2012, 06:39   #486
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Originally Posted by Glockrunner View Post
There are a lot of IFs to play with knowing what little we have been told. I really don't think we'll ever know the full story behind the whole event really and it isn't because of the OP. Just too much liability involved and too much time wasted in trying to investigate just "who did what.

I agree. I think there is more to this story than what we've been told.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:11   #487
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On a good sidenote though, I just got a for real NEW Glock 26 for a great deal So now I have another glock to carry. I also went and bought 2 nice Galco holsters for it as well as some pearce extensions!
I also own a model 23 and just got the 26 Gen4. Those extensions, IMO kinda suck. I found the 26 is much more comfortable to fire with the standard magazine. In fact, it is very much like firing the 23, but after the godfather chops off your pinky. I bought 3 extensions because I was absolutely sure they were necessary. Fortunately I only opened one, and the other two are going in for refund.
More trouble. The stock baseplate for the mag was so hard to get off I ruined it, so I will have to find another.
I have the Desantis pocket holster for my LCP, and I like it, so I bought the Desantis Insider for my 26. What a disappointment. This holster simply will not work unless you wear a larger pants size, and even then it is very uncomfortable. I'm going back to Uncle Mike. That is what I have for my 23, and I really like it.
When are you going to get a positive answer on your problem? After reading the whole thread it appears you bought a "basket case".
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:19   #488
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, so I bought the Desantis Insider for my 26. What a disappointment. This holster simply will not work unless you wear a larger pants size, and even then it is very uncomfortable.
I have the Desantis Pro Stealth IWB for my 23, very comfortable.

It's normal to need 1 size bigger jeans/pants when using
IWB carry. Gun belt makers even tell you need to add
2 inches to the belt size for IWB.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:47   #489
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I have the Desantis Pro Stealth IWB for my 23, very comfortable.

It's normal to need 1 size bigger jeans/pants when using
IWB carry. Gun belt makers even tell you need to add
2 inches to the belt size for IWB.
That sounds right. But you know, it is a bit of a vanity thing in my old age. I just finished a 3 month process of losing a great deal of weight. I am where I want to be now with the pant size I targeted. I am in a 36, but I have plenty of 38, 40, and 42s in the closet, waiting to be given to Goodwill.
Still, I might have to hang on to those 38s. The 23 in an Uncle Mikes soft IWB is great, and it is comfortable. It is just a little too large to hide the print under a shirt jacket. The Desantis is not only hard, it puts the 26 grips under my belt, making it a bit tough to withdraw the gun. The Uncle Mikes rides much higher with the 23, and I think that might be the secret to a good IWB, unless you want the gun completely hidden by your pants.
My son warned me before I got my CC permit that I might go broke trying to find a holster I like, and he thinks the Uncle Mikes allows the gun to come out too easily.
Didn't mean to highjack the thread, but I suppose we are all awaiting the final verdict on this. I absolutely trust my 23, and the OP's occurrence hasn't shaken faith in it a bit. My little LCP is a whole other story. What a little monster that is. I hate shooting it, but wow is it easy to grab and go.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:03   #490
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Good job, RoyL!

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Old 12-12-2012, 08:09   #491
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Still, I might have to hang on to those 38s. The 23 in an Uncle Mikes soft IWB is great, and it is comfortable. It is just a little too large to hide the print under a shirt jacket. The Desantis is not only hard, it puts the 26 grips under my belt, making it a bit tough to withdraw the gun. The .
I'm a 36 too, I also have 38's from before losing weight,

The 38's are perfect for IWB. And with the belt set right
gun draw is perfect. I've tried running and no movement.

On the grip under the belt, are you sure it's the right holster for a 26?

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Old 12-12-2012, 09:19   #492
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You're comparing apples to oranges here. The condition of the "sear" if you will, is the cause of the discharge. In this conversation the OP layed his pistol down and it discharged. He claims no one pulled the trigger.
No, this is not about the OP's problem. A probable cause of it has been determined. This is more of a branch in the thread discussing carry condition for Glocks and other firearms.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:22   #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
Glocks do have a 5 to 6 lb trigger pull, no 1911 has a 20 lb

I've had at least 20 1911's over the years and the worst
was a 8 lb pull. Not an accurate comparison.

In a hypothetical comparison, say if you caused the 1911
to have a 20 lb pull, then yes. It would be safer.

At the same time you can use a 8 ib connector in a Glock
with a NY2 trigger and have around a 10 lb pull, safe?
It was a hypothetical example using an extreme to show that a M1911 *could* be safer in C0 than the Glock is in C0. If I had used real world values, it would have been less obvious.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:27   #494
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Originally Posted by WilliamDahl View Post
No, this is not about the OP's problem. A probable cause of it has been determined. This is more of a branch in the thread discussing carry condition for Glocks and other firearms.
In other words, it is a discussion that is taking this thread off topic and should be taken elsewhere (such as a thread on the topic)...correct?
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:00   #495
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In other words, it is a discussion that is taking this thread off topic and should be taken elsewhere (such as a thread on the topic)...correct?
The original topic was solved. Someone either assembled or reassembled the firearm incorrectly and bent something. This is a subthread within this thread. It's probably a bit more obvious when you are using the threaded view than the linear view of the thread.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:02   #496
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Best bet, don't keep a round in the chamber. I can draw my concealed G-27 and run in a round very easily. Takes two hands of course, but have had to do this once during a multiple pit bull dog attack against myself, my daughter, and my two Golden retrievers. I pulled, chambered a round, and fired one in the air in just a second or two, all while holding a scared dog on a leash. Practice, practice, practice.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:13   #497
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Quote:
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The original topic was solved. Someone either assembled or reassembled the firearm incorrectly and bent something. This is a subthread within this thread. It's probably a bit more obvious when you are using the threaded view than the linear view of the thread.
That wasn't really a question...(at least not a question that had more than one correct answer)...it was more of a reminder of the forum rules. Threads are suppose to stay on topic, tangent discussions are suppose to be taken elsewhere.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:21   #498
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Very true, sorry on my part
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:33   #499
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Delayed double fire or slam fire?

I've been following this all along. I'm wondering that if the FPS spring was not seated right, could this allow the firing pin to not reset properly? In other words, could the FP have been in contact with the primer, and set the round off as the gun was dropped on the table. Would appreciate any comments.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:49   #500
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Best bet, don't keep a round in the chamber. I can draw my concealed G-27 and run in a round very easily. Takes two hands of course, but have had to do this once during a multiple pit bull dog attack against myself, my daughter, and my two Golden retrievers. I pulled, chambered a round, and fired one in the air in just a second or two, all while holding a scared dog on a leash. Practice, practice, practice.
No, that's not the "best bet." If a gun is malfunctioning, what do you think will happen after you chamber the round? A gun that can't safely be carried with a round in the chamber needs to be fixed.

Oh, you fired a warning shot in the air, nice one
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