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Old 12-13-2012, 11:33   #576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LampShadeActual View Post
(1) Apparently you missed this the first time I posted it...
OP apparently missed my post (#514) as well.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:45   #577
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Originally Posted by dosei View Post
No...nothing pulled the trigger. Read the thread again (or for the first time?).
Sorry, I misread it. Now it really is a mystery, for GGlock designed the Glock to fire only if the trigger is pulled.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:56   #578
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Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
Sorry, I misread it. Now it really is a mystery, for GGlock designed the Glock to fire only if the trigger is pulled.
No...no mystery...READ the thread, or at least the posts from cglaspel (the OP).
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:00   #579
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Originally Posted by LampShadeActual View Post
(1) Apparently you missed this the first time I posted it.

The Ohio Attorney General's Office is who you should get up with.

Info: http://www.ohiolemonlaw.com/ocll-site/ocll-cplaw.html

Contact Info: http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/

If you click the little blue lines which it seems you know how to do, you will get info and contact numbers. Internetting don't get you squat. Talk to some real people well paid to help you. A gun dealer frigging around with used/new guns and negligent discharges will light a fire under some one there.

(2) For some D'weed to go backwards 500 posts and decide he doesn't like your story, who cares what he/they/or anyone thinks. You either are a colossal fool for bring it up or got screwed by FFF. I go with getting sold a used gun.

(3) Unless you have nothing to do, like a job or life or GF, you have posted this to death unless your only entertainment is keyboarding. Its time to resolve some of the issues and THEN report back. The coulda/woulda/shoulda just feeds the naysayers.

(4) If you are pissed, get some state muscle to help from the AG's office. The only thing FFF could be forced to do by any legal system is that they owe you the difference in cost between a new Glock and a used Glock. There isn't much else you will ever see.

But if you want to put some hurt on FFF, put the AG on them. FFF's attorney fees for that explaination will stop them from doing it again.

(5) Glock has rebuilt your pistol. All YOU can expect from FFF is a new Glock in trade for your rebuilt Glock.

(6) As a practical matter, any Glock armorer would have fixed it on the spot with those defects. The factory was just being nice because you sent it to them as a supposed new gun. The armorers would have just traded out the bad parts and made it like new safe for maybe $40. If that.

(7) The rest of this back and forth hoha is you having fun answering questions and what-ifing.

(8) My suggestion is put some hurt on FFF and then report back. You have internetted it to death. Now go do something in the real world. Connectivity devices are not the real world.

(Kindly note I am on your side, but I am noting internet forums don't result in anything besides your posting whaty-iffys.) Sally forth and kick ass.

I apologize, I must have missed this the first time you posted it! Very good info though thank you! That is my next step then. I will let everyone know what happens once I get in contact with the AG and FF&F again.

Again, thanks for the links, have a good one!
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:24   #580
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Really? You don't seem like you would be that bad of company.
...wait 'til you know me a while.
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Old 12-14-2012, 15:28   #581
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Originally Posted by dosei View Post
A Glock produced after April 1992 (or one produced prior but with the proper upgrades listed in the 1992 Glock Technical Bulletin) in proper functioning condition will not go off unless the trigger is pulled...or at least nobody has found a way to make it happen yet.
What changes do the 1992 technical bulletin prescribe? Will the upgrades be made by Glock factory technicians or by Glock advanced armorers in 'private practice' at gun shows, etc.?
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Old 12-14-2012, 16:04   #582
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
What changes do the 1992 technical bulletin prescribe? Will the upgrades be made by Glock factory technicians or by Glock advanced armorers in 'private practice' at gun shows, etc.?
6 part upgrade in 1992 bulletin, all guns before mid Oct 1991

extractor
spring loaded bearing (SLB)
firing pin safety plunger
spring for safety plunger
firing pin (striker)
trigger bar with trigger



General Glocking
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Old 12-14-2012, 16:05   #583
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Originally Posted by LampShadeActual View Post

My suggestion is put some hurt on FFF and then report back.

Sally forth and kick ass.
As you say, we have probably internet-litigated this subject past the point of useful discussion. However, this has primarily been an important, constructive learning experience for me and, hopefully, many other readers of the many posts.

Generally speaking, pistol modifications are treated pretty casually on forums like Glock Talk. As this example dramatically demonstrates, improperly made mods can be dangerous.

Modifications that involve components of any gun's safety system should be made only by capable people; some self-taught gun mechanics MAY be technically capable of making alterations, but professional technicians are best qualified to do trigger jobs and other lower unit work.

We should also remember the old "innocent until proven guilty" theme that guides our legal system. While the GT trial may be finished, more facts could change the picture significantly. "Kicking ass" should be imposed only after the gun dealer has had an opportunity to speak. It would be a great disservice to destroy the dealer's reputation if behavior by someone in it's employ violated store policy. Yes, final accountability falls upon the owner. Unfortunately, things can happen that get past policies and internal controls.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 12-15-2012 at 07:59..
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Old 12-14-2012, 16:26   #584
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Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
6 part upgrade in 1992 bullitin, all guns before mid Oct 1991

extractor
spring loaded bearing (SLB)
firing pin safty plunger
spring for safty plunger
firing pin (striker)
trigger bar with trigger



General Glocking
Thanks. My early Gen 3, G19, two-pin Glock is the only 'older' model I own. Until I retrieve the serial number, the age remains a question.

I suspect all pre-92 Glocks should be upgraded. Did Glock do a public announcement of the upgrade? Did Glock pay for the modifications?
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Old 12-14-2012, 17:26   #585
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All owners that filled out the warranty cards
were notified of the "upgrade". But it was really
a recall. A word Glock never uses.

You pay shipping to Glock, parts are free. Glock pays shipping back
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Last edited by clarkz71; 12-14-2012 at 18:27..
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Old 12-14-2012, 17:52   #586
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Yep... Glock likes the ring of "Product Improvement Notice".
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Old 12-14-2012, 18:04   #587
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Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
All owners that filled out the warranty cards
were notified of the "upgrade". But it was really
a recall. A word Glock never uses.
You are correct no mention of recall in the notification.

I am looking at the letter I received from Glock and is a Technical Bulletin listed as PRODUCT UPGRADE. And it goes on to say that it is a production change of the firing pin safety system and it is "A voluntary upgrade" and that "Here, as always, Glock is working toward its standard of perfection"
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Old 12-15-2012, 00:00   #588
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Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
All owners that filled out the warranty cards
were notified of the "upgrade". But it was really
a recall. A word Glock never uses.

You pay shipping to Glock, parts are free. Glock pays shipping back
Here is another lesson, indirect as it may be, from this thread. FILL OUT THE WARRANTY CARD WHEN YOU BUY A NEW GUN.

Some buyers may not turn in the card because it leaves a trail to the purchaser's identity. Personally, I don't let that stop me. I think it should simplify warranty work that may have to be done, if the buyer is registered. It also gives the manufacturer a mailing list in the event an upgrade (recall) becomes necessary.

Did the OP say he sent in the warranty card for his Glock? If he did, the registration would document his claim that the gun was purchased by him as new.

Thanks, clarkz.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 12-15-2012 at 00:02..
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Old 12-15-2012, 02:22   #589
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No problem.
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:14   #590
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PhotoFeller,

I understand that fully. This OP needed a little hint to go actually do something with FF&F. If they sold him a used gun or if there is some other wild explaination or someone is BS'ing us, it will soon shake out.

As an aside, just for reference on industry practices, I see on a Buckeye Outdoors receipt that they will accept return of a firearm within 24 hours as "new." Buckeye on I70 in Newark and its owner, Vance in Columbus, is even bigger than FF&F and probably outsells them 5:1 or 10:1 in Ohio. I'd wonder which pile those returned new guns went into since they don't have a used section as such?

I have long since refused to pay for any firearm that does not come from the "back" still in original packing and looking as if the packing has never been disturbed. NEVER on my dumbest day would I buy a gun off a dealer's shelf after it has been handled by 100 potato chip hands, dry fired 2000 times, and only dropped on the tile floor once.

My Glock LEO dealer will only break the seal on a new Glock after you have paid for it and after the call to Clarksburg has been made. They do not sell used guns.

Last edited by LampShadeActual; 12-15-2012 at 06:22..
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Old 12-15-2012, 07:57   #591
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Originally Posted by LampShadeActual View Post
PhotoFeller,

I understand that fully. This OP needed a little hint to go actually do something with FF&F. If they sold him a used gun or if there is some other wild explaination or someone is BS'ing us, it will soon shake out.

As an aside, just for reference on industry practices, I see on a Buckeye Outdoors receipt that they will accept return of a firearm within 24 hours as "new." Buckeye on I70 in Newark and its owner, Vance in Columbus, is even bigger than FF&F and probably outsells them 5:1 or 10:1 in Ohio. I'd wonder which pile those returned new guns went into since they don't have a used section as such?

I have long since refused to pay for any firearm that does not come from the "back" still in original packing and looking as if the packing has never been disturbed. NEVER on my dumbest day would I buy a gun off a dealer's shelf after it has been handled by 100 potato chip hands, dry fired 2000 times, and only dropped on the tile floor once.

My Glock LEO dealer will only break the seal on a new Glock after you have paid for it and after the call to Clarksburg has been made. They do not sell used guns.
You're right on all counts.

The advice to insist on accepting only a pristine gun from unopened inventory is another lesson for us all. I recently bought a 'new' Kahr CW9 from the dealer's display case because it was the last one in stock. It had no marks or evidence of handling, but who knows how many times it was dry fired. I field stripped it right away to clean and inspect it, but I'm no expert.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 12-15-2012 at 07:57..
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Old 12-16-2012, 00:04   #592
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Originally Posted by INEEDMILK View Post
I'm sorry, but this story still seems suspect. I've been reading this thread from the beginning and it is starting to seem more and more like bull****. Had the issue been holster-related I would have been more likely to believe it...

You say on page 5, "Also I had taken this pistol out a few days back and put about 150 rounds through it without any issue."

I want to you explain to me how you fired 150 rounds through your 23 without noticing that something was drastically different about your new Glock. And don't say "I thought it was just because it was a Gen4" like you said before. If the trigger was as light as you say, wouldn't have that been a cause for concern?

In your original post, you said that you inspected the Glock after the AD incident and it "seemed normal". You then say on page 2, "Also have field stripped and checked everything on the glock and it all seems to be perfect."

A trigger job that has removed so much material that a tiny bump can cause the pistol to fire would surely have been noticeable AND you would be easily able to recreate the incident. There is no miraculous angle that could have caused the gun to fire. The trigger is either so light that it either fires from being bumped, or does not.

So your story is that someone bought the gun from the store, did the .25 cent trigger job but did too much, then installed the firing pin safety spring sideways, then returned the gun, and then it was sold as new? And that is assuming that the partially tensioned striker still has the force to ignite a primer, which is debatable at best.

And then you fired at least 150 rounds through it without noticing anything different about the trigger or action?

How did you fire 150 rounds of .40 through this gun and not notice that the trigger was faulty?

And how did the gun fire if the firing pin safety spring was bent?

How was the firing pin safety able to move out of the way for the striker to engage?




Exactly. 99% of stores have a no-return policy on firearms for EXACTLY THIS SPECIFIC REASON. Liability.

I think the OP bought a new gun, did the .25 trigger job, took too much off and decided to neglect it until it shot a hole in his wall.
Agreed 100%

Never heard of a glock just deciding to fire on its own free will. And I don't know how a trigger job (even an awful one) could cause a glock to just decide to start dumping without any trigger engagement.

This is a funny thread , definetly a classic.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:58   #593
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Since this thread started , I've been trying to get any of my Glocks to fire at will and not just randomly.

Been cleaning them with "raw oysters " and hard-core consintration. If only I can get my Glocks to police my living space , what a load would be lifted...!

Does "Chi" really exist..? Can it be house broke...?


Well I'll keep trying and let you all know of my progress....!
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Old 12-16-2012, 10:18   #594
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You can make fun of this guy all you wish. I do not know the answer for 100% to what happened and neither do any of us BS'ing here on a rainy day.

What I do know is that the Glock's two engagement surfaces are damn minimal. Perfectly adequate if left alone as made so that nothing happens unless you pull the trigger. I understand that.

I have also seen the inside of a bunch of Glocks, new, used, and f'd with.

The firing pin tang, the bottom rear edge, is rounded like a U looked at from the rear. The rear of the trigger bar cruciform is a stamping that is sharp toward the top rear going left to right.

If some Bubba removes metal from the bottom of the U and removes metal from the top rear of the cruciform, the engagement of what amounts to a striker and sear disappears to next to nothing. I can see it happening that the striker is released.

Add in a malfunctioning firing pin safety and Bammmm.

No gun store the size of FF&F has a two year old Glock in stock.

Add them all together and the OP's story is possible. Add in the two year old stock problem, and I am willing to believe him over mutts in a gun store.
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Old 12-16-2012, 10:48   #595
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We should also remember the old "innocent until proven guilty" theme that guides our legal system.
Ok, when did this become a criminal trial? J/k I know where you are coming from though.
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:00   #596
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Originally Posted by LampShadeActual View Post

What I do know is that the Glock's two engagement surfaces are damn minimal. Perfectly adequate if left alone as made so that nothing happens unless you pull the trigger.

Add in a malfunctioning firing pin safety and Bamm...
Do the "engagement surfaces" wear over time in the natural course of firing thousands of rounds?
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:30   #597
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Not like one pass with Bubba's Dremel tool does on the wrong surface or too much on the right surface. (There is no right surface for a Dremel.)

Or worse yet, rounding off either surface which results in a pull that just starts and then goes and goes by itself.

In comparison, I have a M17 with 20,000 rounds, more or less, that still has the original trigger bar and firing pin. All the other small parts in the slide and the RS got replaced.

Last edited by LampShadeActual; 12-16-2012 at 12:32..
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:56   #598
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Originally Posted by LampShadeActual View Post
You can make fun of this guy all you wish. I do not know the answer for 100% to what happened and neither do any of us BS'ing here on a rainy day.

What I do know is that the Glock's two engagement surfaces are damn minimal. Perfectly adequate if left alone as made so that nothing happens unless you pull the trigger. I understand that.

I have also seen the inside of a bunch of Glocks, new, used, and f'd with.

The firing pin tang, the bottom rear edge, is rounded like a U looked at from the rear. The rear of the trigger bar cruciform is a stamping that is sharp toward the top rear going left to right.

If some Bubba removes metal from the bottom of the U and removes metal from the top rear of the cruciform, the engagement of what amounts to a striker and sear disappears to next to nothing. I can see it happening that the striker is released.

Add in a malfunctioning firing pin safety and Bammmm.

No gun store the size of FF&F has a two year old Glock in stock.

Add them all together and the OP's story is possible. Add in the two year old stock problem, and I am willing to believe him over mutts in a gun store.
Thanks for the reply , good post.

I just don't see how (even with what you said) putting the gun on a table and not engaging the trigger at all can cause a round to go off.

Has there ever been a documented (confirmed) case of a glock ND'ing with no trigger engagement ?
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Old 12-16-2012, 13:11   #599
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Has there ever been a documented (confirmed) case of a glock ND'ing with no trigger engagement ?
Yes, of course there has.

Two that spring immediately to mind are:
1) The Suffolk County PD (NY) AD, where a Glock was slam-firing.
2) The DEA Frisbee Test.

It is widely believed that these events were the key impetus behind the 1992 Technical Bulletin issued by Glock. No doubt there were many other incidents by individuals that were being dismissed with the same level of arrogance/ignorance/overconfidence as this incident (by certain individuals on this thread)...but must have been occuring with enough regularity that Glock was beginning to wonder. And those 2 incidences were ones that Glock could not cover up/dismiss...at that point they had to address the problem.
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Last edited by dosei; 12-16-2012 at 18:19..
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Old 12-16-2012, 16:16   #600
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First post to GT. I have read this whole thread and have two points.

1) I learned much from this thread to take forward. To be honest, I never gave it a second though that I could not be getting a brand new un-modified firearm that I thought I was purchasing, but you can bet that will be at the forefront of all future purchases. So for that aspect alone, this was an eye opening and informative thread.

2) There does not seem to be an alterior motive to the post other than to provide information to others and seek an explanation. Therefore, I believe the OP and his version of the events and am willing to give the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps that is naive, but if the situation as reported happened to me I could see myself posting the information if for nothing else than to alert others of the situation and try to find out what happened. I guess that is projecting, but given the information posted and the fact that I will never really know for sure that is the best I can come up with. Yeah, most people suck and lie, but not all of them.

So, OP thank you for posting, I learned something. You don't know what you don't know, and now there is one less thing I don't know.
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