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Old 12-11-2012, 07:25   #426
whitey4311
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The trigger being pulled stages the striker and TRS spring. There is no way the striker was under spring tension all by itself enough to ignite a primer. There is something we arent being told.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:57   #427
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Originally Posted by dango View Post
May I ask ? What is the lesson learned here other than the most basic of safety when around fire arms ?

Direction of muzzle is moot when OC or CC , fact is if that pistol fires with a round in the chamber , odds are your getting shot somewhere.

Life style dictates how I carry and when. Out here in the boonies
none in the chamber. In the rat race , one in the chamber.

What is the prognosis , why did this pistol fire ? I can't say and all I get from this is awareness.

Glad for the OP it was only a wall and no doubt , he learned the most whatever the reason.
We might learn its necessary to verify a gun represented as 'new' has not been sold previously. We probably should at least ask the store rep to remove the slide of a 'new' Glock to verify the factory lube is present and everything appears new.

We might learn that Glock quality control isn't good enough to insure that a new weapon is defect free. This lesson would translate to being more careful than usual when loading, handling, firing a brand new pistol.

We might learn how important it is to field strip a new pistol to inspect parts for visible damage (parts bent, file/polish marks, etc.) before loading it. This would actually apply to new and used firearms.

We might learn to be more selective in choosing a LGS to buy a gun from. Price is not the only criteria for deciding where to buy.

We might learn something about holster selection or use or condition that would help us avoid a ND.

We might learn to determine a gun's date of manufacture before writing a check to buy it. If its got whiskers, why hasn't it been sold sooner?

We might even learn something about choosing a girlfriend.

If we open our eyes and our minds, we can learn something from every bad situation. When we think we know it all, trouble is certain to come knocking.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 12-11-2012 at 08:09..
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:13   #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post
The trigger being pulled stages the striker and TRS spring. There is no way the striker was under spring tension all by itself enough to ignite a primer. There is something we arent being told.
Striker/FP is under 65% tension in the ready to fire state.
I believe that it can fire if the criciform slips off the connector. I'm sure some Glock experts on here will know.

Here's a post (#15) from another thread, sounds logical............

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1415684


Quote:
Originally Posted by Made in Austria View Post
Sorry, but I have to disagree. The firing pin spring is always held under tension (to about 30% spring power) by the spring cups and the firing pin firing pin spacer sleeve, even if the trigger is pulled. Now, when you rack the slide, the gun/firing pin gets pre-cocked to ~65% because the rear end of the trigger bar holds the lug of the firing pin back when the slide travels forward. The remaining 35% come from the trigger pull. So yes, the firing pin spring of a pre-cocked Glock is under a higher tension than a the spring in a uncocked Glock. You can clearly see that in your video.

To the OP, don't worry leaving your gun loaded. It won't wear out the firing pin spring nor any other parts in your gun. Only cycling a spring many many times will wear out the springs in a Glock. Order some spare springs for yours. It's always a good idea to have spare parts especially springs on hand and costs only a few dollars.
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Last edited by clarkz71; 12-11-2012 at 08:17..
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:21   #429
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Now I guess that is a matter of opinion. Fact is more people are shot or killed by way of an AD/ND from C1 than C3. I've seen plenty of "experts" make mistakes.
Yeah, it would take a certain amount of skill (or really bad luck) to shoot yourself accidentally from Condition 3.

I'm not sure that we really can call the normal Glock carrying condition as C1 though. It only requires a pull of the trigger to make it fire, so as far as I'm concerned, it's C0... Some firearms are safer in this condition than others... I have a Thompson Encore that has such a light trigger, there's no way that I would walk through the woods with it with the hammer cocked or even leave it cocked if I wasn't immediately planning on shooting it. I would not carry a M1911 in C0 either. The Glock's a bit better and it gets carried in C0, but it's still not as safe as my Sig P229 (DAO) when carried in C0 and the Sig is probably not as safe as the Taurus PT145 (DAO and thumb activated safety) which can be carried in C0 and C1.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:29   #430
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Good post ^

My Sig P220 had a long 1st shot DA pull. Like a revolver.
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Last edited by clarkz71; 12-11-2012 at 08:30..
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:36   #431
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Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
Striker/FP is under 65% tension in the ready to fire state.
I believe that it can fire if the criciform slips off the connector. I'm sure some Glock experts on here will know.

Here's a post (#15) from another thread, sounds logical............

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1415684
Ok, but then how did the striker get past the Safety Block?
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:52   #432
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The OP posted that the striker block spring was bent and could have kept the striker from being blocked.

Dave

Quote:
Originally Posted by cglaspel View Post
Anyways, SO took it to a SECOND Glock Armorer today, and thank goodness I did, I now have an answer,

#1- Firing pin block spring was bent, not straight like it should have been!!!

#2 The "sear" is not engaging the lug on the firing pin assembly properly!!

He says that since both of these issues are there, that It is highly likely that the pistol fired from the "half cocked" position.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:57   #433
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wow, glad no one was hurt and very curious to find out if the gun was used but sold as new.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:00   #434
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Originally Posted by Chigurh View Post
This thread is the best and worst of the internet, and forums: some useful information, and a lot of idiots lashing out from their lairs of ignorance.
Let's just wait to hear what the OP learns from Glock, such as it may be.
Sorry.
"It was the best of threads, it was the worst of threads..."

Think I read that somewhere.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:18   #435
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I've posted my thoughts on this before, but, in all these pages, it seems to get lost.

With a Glock, S&W M-P some other striker fired guns and, a cocked and locked pistol, like a 1911, everything has to work right for the gun NOT to fire.

With a true DA auto or revolver, everything has to work right for the gun TO fire.

Thats a big difference. I know plenty of people who appendix carry a Glock and a 1911. I can't. Something about a cocked pistol pointed at my femoral artery makes me a little queasy.

Granted, its alot of things that all have to go wrong, the firing pin safety must fail and the firing pin slip off the cruciform, but, it COULD happen. With a true DA, it CAN'T happen.

We have over 250 Glocks that have been carried for over 12 years now. None have ever gone off in the holster. I think the odds are astronomical. The odds of something, like a finger, a coat drawstring, the hook on the bathroom stall etc to get to the trigger and actually firing the gun is much higher.

We buy our guns new. No is is permitted to moduify them and, they get yearly inspections. The odds of something going wrong is very very small.

Last edited by Sgt127; 12-11-2012 at 09:19.. Reason: typo
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:42   #436
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Originally Posted by Sgt127 View Post
I've posted my thoughts on this before, but, in all these pages, it seems to get lost.

With a Glock, S&W M-P some other striker fired guns and, a cocked and locked pistol, like a 1911, everything has to work right for the gun NOT to fire.

With a true DA auto or revolver, everything has to work right for the gun TO fire.

Thats a big difference. I know plenty of people who appendix carry a Glock and a 1911. I can't. Something about a cocked pistol pointed at my femoral artery makes me a little queasy.

Granted, its alot of things that all have to go wrong, the firing pin safety must fail and the firing pin slip off the cruciform, but, it COULD happen. With a true DA, it CAN'T happen.

We have over 250 Glocks that have been carried for over 12 years now. None have ever gone off in the holster. I think the odds are astronomical. The odds of something, like a finger, a coat drawstring, the hook on the bathroom stall etc to get to the trigger and actually firing the gun is much higher.

We buy our guns new. No is is permitted to moduify them and, they get yearly inspections. The odds of something going wrong is very very small.

Your message is compelling, and I hope others read it carefully and think about it.

Our guns are lethal. Deadly. In my mind, a ND/AD has a greater probability than a deadly surprise attack.. This is solely my opinion based on intuition and my life circumstances more than statistical facts. In other words, it might be said that Condition one is more dangerous to ourselves and other innocents than the threat of someone trying to kill us with a knife or gun.

There are valid opinions that don't align with Condition 1. Shooting a hole in the wall at home would cause one to wonder if Condition 3 is as"stupid" as some believe.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 12-11-2012 at 09:48..
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:48   #437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post
The trigger being pulled stages the striker and TRS spring. There is no way the striker was under spring tension all by itself enough to ignite a primer. There is something we arent being told.
Completely incorrect...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dosei View Post
I see and hear this a lot...and it is wrong. The Glock, by design from the very beginning, pre-loads the striker enough to fire a round if released from that position.
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Originally Posted by dosei View Post
I'm one of the geezers that was a gun nut way way back when the Glock first came out. Gaston intentionally designed the Glock to pre-load the striker enough to fire a round if released from the pre-loaded position. 30 years ago this was common knowledge.
From another discussion in another thread...
Quote:
Originally Posted by dosei View Post
By preloading the striker, the overall striker travel that must be generated by the trigger can be greatly reduced. Since the striker now does not need to travel very far, the trigger can be designed with more mechanical advantage resulting in a trigger that travels a littler farther than the striker (the movement ratio is not 1:1) but also does not impart the full spring pressure to the trigger finger of the operator (as the VP70 did). Gaston studied various firearm designs that had "precock" or "halfcock" positions for the hammer and found that many of them did have the hammer cocked enough to fire if released from that position. Gaston documented these designs and designed the Glock to have a little less preload than the firearms he found to have the greatest preloaded condition. He was quite resolute in his belief that the Glock could never possibly fire unless the trigger was being pulled. And if the trigger is being pulled then obviously someone wants the gun to fire...needs the gun to fire. So if some type of failure were to occur while the trigger was being pulled, resulting in the striker being released early, the gun would still fire (and potentially save the life of the user). Gaston knew that for the gun to find it's way into the majority of LEO's holsters (remember, this was back in 1982) it would need to be listed as a DA trigger by the BATF. So he designed the most "un-DA" trigger he could yet still be just within an arguable "DA" trigger design.
How many times do we have to go through this...?
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:48   #438
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Originally Posted by Sgt127 View Post
Thats a big difference. I know plenty of people who appendix carry a Glock and a 1911. I can't. Something about a cocked pistol pointed at my femoral artery makes me a little queasy.
Well, that's one way of looking at it... I don't like an appendix carry for two reasons:

1. It's uncomfortable when you sit down
2. I don't like having the barrel of a firearm basically pointed at my 'nads. Even if I'm too old to be wanting to propagate my genes anymore, I just don't like having the business end of a firearm pointed down there. I *might* consider carrying a compact M1911 in C2 in an appendix carry, but never a firearm in C0 or C1. Paranoid? Yeah... Then again, I've been shot before and I would just as well not be one of those who do it to themselves, especially when it is pointing down there. It's one thing to be shot by "the bad guy" or "the enemy". It's just a bit embarrassing if you shoot yourself... And if you take yourself out of the gene pool in the process by taking out your 'nads, well, that is just way too embarrassing...

Last edited by WilliamDahl; 12-11-2012 at 09:53..
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:54   #439
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Originally Posted by WilliamDahl View Post
Well, that's one way of looking at it... I don't like an appendix carry for two reasons:

1. It's uncomfortable when you sit down
2. I don't like having the barrel of a firearm basically pointed at my 'nads. Even if I'm too old to be wanting to propagate my gene anymore, I just don't like having the business end of a firearm pointed down there. I *might* consider carrying a compact M1911 in C2 in an appendix carry, but never a firearm in C0 or C1. Paranoid? Yeah... Then again, I've been shot before and I would just as well not be one of those who do it to themselves, especially when it is pointing down there.
so true. "never let the muzzle sweep anything you're not prepared to destroy." Shooting yourself in the ass is a bad day. An appendix carry AD could be something entirely more serious.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:01   #440
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Originally Posted by WilliamDahl View Post
Well, that's one way of looking at it... I don't like an appendix carry for two reasons:

1. It's uncomfortable when you sit down
2. I don't like having the barrel of a firearm basically pointed at my 'nads. Even if I'm too old to be wanting to propagate my gene anymore, I just don't like having the business end of a firearm pointed down there. I *might* consider carrying a compact M1911 in C2 in an appendix carry, but never a firearm in C0 or C1. Paranoid? Yeah... Then again, I've been shot before and I would just as well not be one of those who do it to themselves, especially when it is pointing down there.
AMEN, brother. My ego will easily adjust to carrying C3, but shootin' myself 'down there' (or anywhere) is something I don't want to deal with.

I suspect ego does get involved in decisions about carry method for some folks. Betting my life, and the safety of others, on the distance and weight of a trigger's pull somehow seems careless to me. But, thats just my point of view, and many others don't see it that way; they're not wrong, but neither am I.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 12-11-2012 at 12:55..
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:03   #441
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so true. "never let the muzzle sweep anything you're not prepared to destroy." Shooting yourself in the ass is a bad day. An appendix carry AD could be something entirely more serious.
Plus, it would be embarrassing enough to shoot yourself in the ass, but to shoot yourself in the 'nads... Well, that would just be TOO embarrassing... Funny how we try to protect them even after we've gotten so old that they've probably outlived their usefulness...

And I'm not even factoring in the chance that you might hit the femoral artery and that you could bleed to death before an ambulance could get to you.

Last edited by WilliamDahl; 12-11-2012 at 10:04..
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:32   #442
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Maybe I've been around too much too long. I assume if human hands assembled it , there is always the "Human error factor". I'm this way with everything and not just guns.

I inspect and dissect everything , it's my nature.I won't use a power tool before full inspection let alone fill up a mag. and go shooting without full inspection , field strip at least.

I assume everybody is like that so I fail to mention it ! So much for assumption.....!
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:01   #443
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post

There are valid opinions that don't align with Condition 1. Shooting a hole in the wall at home would cause one to wonder if Condition 3 is as"stupid" as some believe.
Now Cond 0 or 1 had nothing to do with this AD, this pistol
had been tampered with rendering the FP safty inoperative
and the cruciform not fully engaged with the striker lug.

Just swapping idea's with you.


Originally Posted by cglaspelGeneral Glocking
Anyways, SO took it to a SECOND Glock Armorer today, and thank goodness I did, I now have an answer,

#1- Firing pin block spring was bent, not straight like it should have been!!!

#2 The "sear" is not engaging the lug on the firing pin assembly properly!!

He says that since both of these issues are there, that It is highly likely that the pistol fired from the "half cocked" position.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:02   #444
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AMEN, brother. My ego will easily adjust to carrying C3, but shootin' myself 'down there' (or anywhere) is something I don't want to deal with.

I suspect one's ego does get involved in decisions about carry method for some folks. Betting my life, and the safety of others, on the distance and weight of a trigger's pull somehow seems careless to me. But, thats just my point of view, and many others don't see it that way; they're not wrong, but neither am I.
Okay PhotoFeller we know you like and support C3 carry so will you please stop beating it to death on here?
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:31   #445
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General GlockingGeneral Glocking
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:44   #446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dosei View Post
Completely incorrect...





From another discussion in another thread...


How many times do we have to go through this...?
So knowing as much as you do explain how the gun fired by not touching the trigger.

I fail to acknowledge the striker had some how bypassed the Safety Block regardless if what you say is true regarding the striker having enough spring tension to ignite a primer.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:10   #447
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Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post
So knowing as much as you do explain how the gun fired by not touching the trigger.

I fail to acknowledge the striker had some how bypassed the Safety Block regardless if what you say is true regarding the striker having enough spring tension to ignite a primer.
Striker safty block plunger was damaged. The OP's report
from armorer:

Originally Posted by cglaspel
Anyways, SO took it to a SECOND Glock Armorer today, and thank goodness I did, I now have an answer,

#1- Firing pin block spring was bent, not straight like it should have been!!!

#2 The "sear" is not engaging the lug on the firing pin assembly properly!!

He says that since both of these issues are there, that It is highly likely that the pistol fired from the "half cocked" position.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:23   #448
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Originally Posted by whitey4311 View Post
So knowing as much as you do explain how the gun fired by not touching the trigger.

I fail to acknowledge the striker had some how bypassed the Safety Block regardless if what you say is true regarding the striker having enough spring tension to ignite a primer.
As the OP has already posted...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cglaspel View Post
Anyways, SO took it to a SECOND Glock Armorer today, and thank goodness I did, I now have an answer,

#1- Firing pin block spring was bent, not straight like it should have been!!!

#2 The "sear" is not engaging the lug on the firing pin assembly properly!!

He says that since both of these issues are there, that It is highly likely that the pistol fired from the "half cocked" position.
In short, it was defective. The spring that should have kept the firing pin block in position to properly "block" the striker/firing pin was actually jamming it and effectively defeating/disabling it. That coupled with an improper (i.e., nearly nonexistent) engagement between the "sear" on the trigger bar and the lug on the striker resulted in a perfect recipe for the resulting undesired discharge.
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Last edited by dosei; 12-11-2012 at 12:24..
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:32   #449
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That's new, a UD to add to AD/ND
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:56   #450
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I guess this is why I don't CCW a new gun with out running first then take it all apart fir inspection.

Thank you OP for your story because I don't think any of us would have thought this possible.
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