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Old 12-07-2012, 08:55   #301
WilliamDahl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
Not really, being a 1911 guy myself there's more to it.

First you have the grip safty
Second, you carry the 1911 in cond 1 or 2.
3 doesn't count because you can do that with the Glock.

Cond 1, round in the chamber, pistol cocked & locked.
Impossible to fire in this mode.

Cond 2, round in the chamber, hammer down.
.Even if the trigger gets pulled by the holster the
gun won't fire as the hammer is already down
and the FP safty prevents AD if the hammer gets hit.

So, while the safty system on a 1911 is more idiot
proof, keeping your finger out of the trigger gaurd
will be just as safe with a Glock in a good holster.
Actually, it would be "keeping your finger and anything else out of the trigger guard". And then there is the definition of 'good holster'. For a Glock, the definition is "own which doesn't allow you to have an AD/ND". I don't believe that the holster should be a required part of the safety system on any particular firearm.

Is it even possible to carry a Glock in Condition 2? I've fooled around with mine a bit trying to get it that way, but I've never been able to manage it. I guess I could read the manual, but that would be like asking directions when you're lost -- something a guy just doesn't do...

I can see how it *could* be useful for some people in certain situations to be able to carry a Glock in Condition 2 since you only need to pull the slide back a short distance to cock it.

I really don't see the Glock's system as much of a "safety". A safety should require a separate action that is distinct from the action of pulling the trigger in my opinion. Now, I have firearms that I carry in Condition 0, but they are DAO and there is a long enough trigger pull that you would have to be rather oblivious to accidentally pull the trigger that far.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:20   #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onthehunt View Post
true... but I carry in a serpa..
If you can't keep your finger out of the trigger gaurd on the draw, then get a different holster. It's not the SERPAs fault when a user cannot use it properly. Regardless though, find something that is safe for you to draw from in C1.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:25   #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PVolk View Post
If you can't keep your finger out of the trigger gaurd on the draw, then get a different holster. It's not the SERPAs fault when a user cannot use it properly. Regardless though, find something that is safe for you to draw from in C1.
One could argue that the Glock is really in Condition 0, not Condition 1 since all it takes is a pull of the trigger to make it fire.
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:30   #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamDahl View Post
Actually, it would be "keeping your finger and anything else out of the trigger guard". And then there is the definition of 'good holster'. For a Glock, the definition is "own which doesn't allow you to have an AD/ND". I don't believe that the holster should be a required part of the safety system on any particular firearm.

Is it even possible to carry a Glock in Condition 2? I've fooled around with mine a bit trying to get it that way, but I've never been able to manage it. I guess I could read the manual, but that would be like asking directions when you're lost -- something a guy just doesn't do...

I can see how it *could* be useful for some people in certain situations to be able to carry a Glock in Condition 2 since you only need to pull the slide back a short distance to cock it.

I really don't see the Glock's system as much of a "safety". A safety should require a separate action that is distinct from the action of pulling the trigger in my opinion. Now, I have firearms that I carry in Condition 0, but they are DAO and there is a long enough trigger pull that you would have to be rather oblivious to accidentally pull the trigger that far.

Here's an explanation of the conditions of carry that Col. Cooper popularized. No mods to the weapon, just where the ammo is in relation to the gun/magazine. This was developed for the 1911 but is partially applicable to the Glock Safe Action Pistol.

Quote:
Cooper favored the Colt M1911 and its variants. There are several conditions of readiness in which such a weapon can be carried. Cooper promulgated most of the following terms:


Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.

Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.


Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.


Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.


Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.


Some of these configurations are safer than others (for instance, a single action pistol without a firing pin safety such as a transfer bar system should never be carried in Condition 2), while others are quicker to fire the gun (Condition 1). In the interest of consistent training, most agencies that issue the 1911 specify the condition in which it is to be carried as a matter of local doctrine.


This firearm condition system can also be used to refer to other firearm actions, particularly when illustrating the differences between carry modes considered to be safe for various actions. For example, DA/SA is designed to be carried in Condition 2, which is not safe for 1911s without firing pin safeties.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:14   #305
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Yes, it is possible to get a Glock into condition two.

Simply shoot your Glock with really cheap ammo until a round does not fire. You now have a condition 2 Glock, a Glock with an uncocked striker and a round in the chamber. You can't safely carry it or do anything with it other than the prescribed hangfire/dud clearance protocol but you will have a condition 2 Glock for a few minutes which is something to talk about at the range.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:16   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cglaspel View Post
Just an early morning update.

No word from Glock. Fin has not had much to say to me over the phone besides come into the store with the defective weapon and they will "check it out" and see about a refund etc.... the way this is going I am pretty sure I will not be doing business with them again.

I could see this happening witg a shady small gunshop but not a major retailer.

On a side note, anyone have a ballpark on how long glock takes on average to get back to you once they receive the weapon etc?

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My suggestion would be to send the gun back to Glock.

We don't want the store to give you a refund and then sell the gun to some other unsuspecting purchaser. Buyer beware.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:22   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamDahl View Post

Is it even possible to carry a Glock in Condition 2? I've fooled around with mine a bit trying to get it that way, but I've never been able to manage it. I guess I could read the manual, but that would be like asking directions when you're lost -- something a guy just doesn't do...
.
No,............. Everything I posted applied only to a 1911. If you read my post I said the only
cond both can be carried in is cond 3 for matching safty.
There is no cond 2 on a Glock, only cond 1 or 3.
The 1911 is better in cond 1 for the casual shooter.

I would never use 3 on any CCW.
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Last edited by clarkz71; 12-07-2012 at 10:25..
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:28   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonS View Post
Yes, it is possible to get a Glock into condition two.

Simply shoot your Glock with really cheap ammo until a round does not fire. You now have a condition 2 Glock, a Glock with an uncocked striker and a round in the chamber. You can't safely carry it or do anything with it other than the prescribed hangfire/dud clearance protocol but you will have a condition 2 Glock for a few minutes which is something to talk about at the range.
That's the same as cond 3, you have to rack the slide before you can fire.Just like an empty chamber.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:12   #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PEC-Memphis View Post
There shouldn't be enough energy in the FP spring to set off a primer in the pre-cocked condition
I see and hear this a lot...and it is wrong. The Glock, by design from the very beginning, pre-loads the striker enough to fire a round if released from that position.
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:38   #310
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(Quote post #147)


Damn, the second video made me instinctively duck in front of my laptop screen.

Last edited by Made in Austria; 12-07-2012 at 11:45..
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Old 12-07-2012, 11:55   #311
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Sorry about your incident. Fantastic that nothing was harmed, other than your wall and your inability to figure out what happened.
Often, guns that are carried daily acquire debris in the firearm. Lint from your clothes can get in the firearm and in the spare magazine ( if you carry one ). Check and see if your firearm has anything in it. There is a reason and an answer for everything. I apologize for all the ignorant comments that have added no value to this topic. Keep us posted.

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Old 12-07-2012, 13:16   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dosei View Post
The Glock, by design from the very beginning, pre-loads the striker enough to fire a round if released from that position.
I was wondering about that.
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Old 12-07-2012, 14:02   #313
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Getting a bit off topic here but I'm not a 1911 guy. How do you safely lower the hammer on a chambered round with a 1911? It can't be done AFAIK, but that's why I'm asking.
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Old 12-07-2012, 14:06   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dosei View Post
I see and hear this a lot...and it is wrong. The Glock, by design from the very beginning, pre-loads the striker enough to fire a round if released from that position.
I'm not sure it would be enough to set off the primer. The trigger moves the striker quite a bit. Compared to some other striker designs apparently, Glocks preloads theirs less.

This thread has some great cutaway pics of the firing pin positions.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1422220

Then of course there is the Glock animation:


Last edited by cowboy1964; 12-07-2012 at 14:09..
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Old 12-07-2012, 14:47   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
Getting a bit off topic here but I'm not a 1911 guy. How do you safely lower the hammer on a chambered round with a 1911? It can't be done AFAIK, but that's why I'm asking.
Nothing in life is 100% safe...

Personally, I just pull back on the hammer with my thumb, squeeze the trigger, and then slowly lowering the hammer with my thumb... Been doing it that way for quite a few decades and I have never had an AD/ND... Same way you do it on a revolver when you are operating it in single action mode... I trust this a lot more than the decocker on a Beretta for example...

Of course, some of the M1911 hammers are more conducive to this than others...

This one:

General Glocking

is probably easier than this one:

General Glocking

Last edited by WilliamDahl; 12-07-2012 at 14:55..
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Old 12-07-2012, 14:58   #316
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Just to quickly clarify I an NOT letting fin "check it out" already have my gunshop sending it to glock. Definitely not letting Fin touch that glock. Also if it does come back that fin sold me a used gun, with these issues then I am going to be coming after them for more than a "we are sorry, here's a free gun".

Good idea about having my armorer write a statement! I am going to ask him to do this!

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Old 12-07-2012, 15:23   #317
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never say never.
I was going to post that too !!!
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Old 12-07-2012, 15:25   #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LampShadeActual View Post
You are missing the dynamic at work here.

If FinF&F sold you a used gun previously fooled with as new, and you returned it to them for analysis and return to Glock, they are unlikely to send it to Glock, since they ALREADY KNOW WTF happened.

They may get it fixed and give it back to you, but they would be nutz to return it to Glock.

Please don't expect to know anything if you involve FF&F in the problem.

Screw you once, not your fault. Let them screw you twice, your own doing.

I wouldn't trust them after this for anything.
I agree with this. Good choice going through Glock. If Fin did indeed partake in shadiness, they sure would not shine the spotlight on it by involving the manufacturer... They would butter you up and "take care of you" so their secret would remain safe.
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Old 12-07-2012, 15:32   #319
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Can someone clarify this point?

So during the federal background check, the information on the form is compared against other information known by the feds and purchase approval or rejection is provided to the licenced seller - e.g., the FFL. Under law, however, the background information that is provided to the feds is then destroyed immediately.

The FFL retains the background information form that was completed by the buyer for 10 years and this information DOES include the serial number of the firearm.

How would this prevent an FFL from selling a used gun as new if the original background record was originated from the same FFL and then destroyed and no background information is allowed to be retained by the feds? If the used gun was originally purchased from the same FFL and then resold, how would anyone including the feds determine this was not a new gun?

If the original owner filed out a warranty card and mailed it to Glock, the manufacturor would know who the original owner was, I suppose.
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Old 12-07-2012, 15:37   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
I'm not sure it would be enough to set off the primer. The trigger moves the striker quite a bit. Compared to some other striker designs apparently, Glocks preloads theirs less.

This thread has some great cutaway pics of the firing pin positions.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1422220

Then of course there is the Glock animation:

Glock Function Animation - YouTube
I am sure. I'm one of the geezers that was a gun nut way way back when the Glock first came out. Gaston intentionally designed the Glock to pre-load the striker enough to fire a round if released from the pre-loaded position. 30 years ago this was common knowledge.

Also, from the thread you linked:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch View Post
I removed the firing pin safety, and cut away the drop safety from a mechanical housing. Then I installed a cut off 'armorers' slide cover so I could pry the trigger bar down with a punch tool to release the firing pin, and the primed case fired every time.
...did you even bother to read what you linked?
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Last edited by dosei; 12-07-2012 at 15:41..
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