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Old 12-05-2012, 11:36   #226
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Originally Posted by GaryC View Post
Great info and thanks for posting it.

I assume that your pistol still has the original ribbed trigger with trigger bar in it. I'm only asking because a lot of folks like to have them changed out for the smooth trigger with trigger bar when they buy them and would probably still consider their pistol stock (as you said it was) because the original trigger was replaced with a Glock OEM part.

Your assumption is correct, it is the original ribbed trigger.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:41   #227
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Originally Posted by LampShadeActual View Post
150 rounds total. Cleaned anti-sieze (its not a lube). Flame? Naw, I am really trying to point out how the machinery works. And the unlikelyhood of this chain being factory originated.

Glock does not "fit" pistols together. They are "assembled" with standard parts. The trigger bar and striker are so standard that they simply drop in as do all the other parts. Its called interchangable parts. Glock parts are as identical as anything made in the gun world.

IF, and I say IF, this pistol had the minimal sear engagement claimed, any fool would have known it. Why you ask?

Because it would feel like a 3# 1911 trigger sitting on a hair's edge. Or simply feel TOO good.

A new Glock these days is coming with a 6-7# trigger that pulls easily, gets hard, has movement you can feel, and then releases the striker. With 500 or 1000 rounds it gets smoother and drops to 5.5-6#, but does not get shorter nor lose the free travel to the harder pull spot.

When the engagement is down under 50%, the "hard" portion of the trigger travel becomes almost non existent. You cannot miss it. It feels good, you like it, but no one besides an idjit would shoot it. You just know something is wrong.

How do da' Glock get such a FUBAR trigger? Not by factory assembly. The first time an assembler pulled the trigger, they would know. No second half travel/engagement.

What usually happens is that a 25cent tuneup removes metal from the bottom of the striker tang or the top of the trigger bar engaging the tang. This reduces engagement. Or the assembly gets bent. Specifically the part that enters the drop safety shelf gets bent upward and lets the "sear" part drop down. Or the long arm of the bar gets bent and does the same thing.

Or worse, the angle of the "sear" changes or the angle of the tang changes, and the engagement becomes one of self sliding release. Now that one really feels smooth.

Polished away metal? Bent parts? Either highly likely.

Factory FUBAR assembly? Not likely.

(None of which covers the firing pin safety problem.)(To get it to fire, we have to stack FUBAR upon FUBAR.)

I would believe Mrs. White did it in the closet with the plunger before I believed Gaston did it.

(I'm the first to admit you are probably not having fun by this point. I'm sorry your gun is not working correctly and way more sorry it managed to fire unwantedly. Hell, I know what stupid feels like. Try asking a GlockTech if it matters if your older AA .22LR unit breaking off a brand new Glock Gen4's plastic assembly guides in front of the front rails matters for functionality. And the only nice thing the fellow can think of to say is, "That's novel." Yeah, I did that. I had never seen a word about the older AA units damaging Gen4 frames. While its just cosmetic, every time you disassemble it, you are reminded.)

To be completely honest, now that I think about it the trigger pull on the pistol did seem a good amount lighter than my gen 3 and gen 2 glocks, but seeing as how I have never bought a new glock until this one, let alone a gen 4 I chalked it up to me being unfamiliar with it. It was not to the point that it seemed something was actually wrong though. Just reminded me of a light almost 4.5lb trigger pull or so.

That sucks about the .22LR AA unit. I would definitely be less than thrilled about that! Especially with the nonchalant response from a GlockTech.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:45   #228
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Originally Posted by carloglock19 View Post
OP,
Do you think there was a chance that the gun shop sold you a used handgun? I don't understand why a gun shop would clean their guns inside and out prior to being sold. Is this customary? I know its not what I see in my area. What if one of the employees got bored while cleaning it and decided to modify some stuff and play around with it or maybe it was a returned gun. All the Glocks that I bought new weren't cleaned until "I" the owner cleaned them and inspected them. I think we have ruled the holster as being the problem. With that said let us know what Glocks tells you. A couple of possibilities now:
1. It came FUBARed from Glock
2. Somebody tampered/modified/screwed with it before it got to you.
The more I am thinking and hearing about it, the more I am wondering If I didnt somehow get a used gun sold as "new".
Whether it was knowingly sold like this or not Is what I would like to know.

Also the 4 guns I have bought from there have all been wiped and cleaned prior to my purchase, so I assume this is customary? I never thought anything of it to be honest. If I wouldnt have had this issue I probably still wouldn't.

Will keep you all updated when I hear from Glock. I am pretty sure he next day shipped it today. Will be checking after work though.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:46   #229
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Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
Glocks are known for going bang. The trigger safety has always been an issue and their models should be updated to have the grip safety like the 1911 firearms received after they were very popular and they were "going boom by accident". The gun should be sent back to Glock to see if it is defective and you should check the ammo to check for defects. Most of the time it is always "operator error" but I do have to say that you should be carrying an HK.

I would also place snap caps in the firearm, cock it and place the holster on it and try to duplicate the event. Maybe you touched the holster where it could place pressure upon the trigger and cause it ti fire. Remember what I said...."the Glock trigger safety sucks".

Keep finger away from trigger in a Glock until you have a safe background etc. Any damage to the home?

But I have seen some ammo go off for no reason over the years. So check everything out.

I am actually working on ponying up the money for a newer p30 or USP!
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:55   #230
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Originally Posted by cglaspel View Post
I am actually working on ponying up the money for a newer p30 or USP!
Good choice!
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:06   #231
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Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
I was talking about the 80 series vs the 70 series. I think Glocks are inherently dangerous because if something hits that little safety , the trigger moves easily. If they had the grip safety too I don't think the Glocks would be as prone to accidental discharge.
OK, the difference between series 80 and series 70
is the firing pin safty. the 1911 is very much like the Glock
version. a plunger in the slide. Glock has always had one.
Colt added that in 70 years later.

The lever on the Glock trigger is for the trigger to start moving.
The striker/FP safty takes over after the trigger moves back.

Both are to prevent a discharge if the weapon is dropped.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:14   #232
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Originally Posted by cglaspel View Post
I had a conversation today with one of my buddies that had worked at the store I purchased from, He said that a lot of the times, if they get a pistol on trade that is basically brand new looking and has everything as new, they will sell it as new. Not used.

They also said that depending on who checks the pistols in and logs them, that they will take them apart and clean all the copper lube etc out of them ahead of time. He made it sound like it was a personal choice of that particular employee that did this.

As far as tinkering with them, he said he had never seen anyone do that, but it wouldn't be a surprise to him if that were the case.....

So I at this point am wondering if they sold me a "NEW" gun that wasnt quite new, or somehow got put with the NEW pistols instead of the used pistols. This G23 definitely looked Brand New In Box to me. It was definitely sold to me as a Brand New Glock 23.
One would think that if they were trying to pass off a previously used Glock as new they would leave the anti seize in place. As wiping/cleaning it out would be a dead give away that some one other than Glock had been in the gun,at least if one is familiar with Glocks.
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Old 12-05-2012, 14:32   #233
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I had a conversation today with one of my buddies that had worked at the store I purchased from, He said that a lot of the times, if they get a pistol on trade that is basically brand new looking and has everything as new, they will sell it as new. Not used.

They also said that depending on who checks the pistols in and logs them, that they will take them apart and clean all the copper lube etc out of them ahead of time. He made it sound like it was a personal choice of that particular employee that did this.


As far as tinkering with them, he said he had never seen anyone do that, but it wouldn't be a surprise to him if that were the case.....

I would offer two pieces of advice:
1) beyond resolving this particular M23, I would never set foot inside that store again.
2) I always buy a gun straight out of the box. I would never buy the counter shelf gun on display. If they are not breaking the seal on a brand new Glock in front of you, I would not buy it. (They are sealed when shipped and only opened at the store. They should only be opened in front of the customer already buying it.)

Putting all your pieces together, I am starting to get the tingle that some one bought this gun, did a mangled trigger job on it, and returned it to the store who sold it for new. Your less than 4.5# trigger feel just doesn't happen on a new Glock.

As to the only Gen4 Glock I own myself, yes, I am somewhat bent over the AA .22LR unit for Gen1-2-3 breaking off the assembly quides in front of the front rails. That location is the impact or stop spot for the 9mm slide to hit and stop rearward travel. There are pieces of steel there that do the job. Most Glocks shot a lot have the plastic battered away from the front of those little steel ends. But the guides remain above the steel. The older AA unit has a narrower than Gen4 bumper/recoil stop. A combination of the recoil spring stop wedging between the frame stop steel members and the stop itself being cut by the steel, breaks off the reassembly guides above the steel. I am told it is cosmetic. The M19 slide still stops on the steel rectangles. The correct AA recoil spring guide stop also stops on the same steel rectangles. So other than seeing it when disassembled, it is a non event. I am still bent over it. And the worst dam thing is that is the only time that AA .22LR LE19-23 unit ever ran 100 rounds with out a bobble. I am thinking of selling the entire M19 Gen4 upper assembly to some one who wants a caliber conversion for their M23 Gen4. I'd just keep the frame for a .22LR AA set.
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Old 12-05-2012, 15:56   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cglaspel View Post
I had a conversation today with one of my buddies that had worked at the store I purchased from, He said that a lot of the times, if they get a pistol on trade that is basically brand new looking and has everything as new, they will sell it as new. Not used.

They also said that depending on who checks the pistols in and logs them, that they will take them apart and clean all the copper lube etc out of them ahead of time. He made it sound like it was a personal choice of that particular employee that did this.

As far as tinkering with them, he said he had never seen anyone do that, but it wouldn't be a surprise to him if that were the case.....

So I at this point am wondering if they sold me a "NEW" gun that wasnt quite new, or somehow got put with the NEW pistols instead of the used pistols. This G23 definitely looked Brand New In Box to me. It was definitely sold to me as a Brand New Glock 23.

They should be able to tell you if it was used or not. They have to log where they purchased it and log it out to whom they sold it to.


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Old 12-05-2012, 16:00   #235
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Originally Posted by LampShadeActual View Post
Putting all your pieces together, I am starting to get the tingle that some one bought this gun, did a mangled trigger job on it, and returned it to the store who sold it for new. Your less than 4.5# trigger feel just doesn't happen on a new Glock.
What kinds of modifications do people do that would equate to a mangled trigger job?

I only ask because I figured to most people, a trigger job consists of a replacement connector and some polish work. I've never seen a poorly done trigger job on a Glock and I honestly dont know what people are doing to screw it up.

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Old 12-05-2012, 16:06   #236
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Originally Posted by PVolk View Post
What kinds of modifications do people do that would equate to a mangled trigger job?

I only ask because I figured to most people, a trigger job consists of a replacement connector and some polish work. I've never seen a poorly done trigger job on a Glock and I honestly dont know what people are doing to screw it up.
very simply incorrectly polish F P lug rounding or edges of cruciform on the trigger bar are but two. SJ 40
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Old 12-05-2012, 16:07   #237
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Gun placed down on table and it fired with no finger near the trigger ? I call BS.

That's [impossble] with a modern handgun ... If this isn't a bs thread it's a serpa n/d thread and the op may not remember "exactly" what happened because of the intensity of the n/d at the time.

Many people have had nds with Serpas -- the whole release button sitting on the trigger is asking for problems.
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Old 12-05-2012, 16:13   #238
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Originally Posted by LampShadeActual View Post
Putting all your pieces together, I am starting to get the tingle that some one bought this gun, did a mangled trigger job on it, and returned it to the store who sold it for new. Your less than 4.5# trigger feel just doesn't happen on a new Glock.
This still doesn't explain how a Glock could go off without being touched. There still have to be multiple failures simultaneously.
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Old 12-05-2012, 16:13   #239
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Originally Posted by PVolk View Post
What kinds of modifications do people do that would equate to a mangled trigger job?

I only ask because I figured to most people, a trigger job consists of a replacement connector and some polish work. I've never seen a poorly done trigger job on a Glock and I honestly dont know what people are doing to screw it up.
All speculation. But if use gun anything possible. Prior owner could have had parts in a pile, his kids came along and played with parts, stepped on them etc. Owner may then have had to deal with bent parts, which he rebent to get assembled. Speculation, but if used gun potential is endless.
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Old 12-05-2012, 16:37   #240
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A lot of good speculation and theories. This thread will slowly fade away until the OP hears back from GLOCK.
Hopefully, that is not similar to asking the old USSR why a missle launch failed.
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Old 12-05-2012, 17:02   #241
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Ok Im thinking ahead a little.
1. Glock identifies that the gun left the factory in that condition, what will they do?
2. Glock identifies that the gun was modified somehow after it left the factory, will the gun shop take responsibility for this?
3. Glock finds that the gun is good to go and sends it back, what will the OP do and will the focus be put back on the Serpa?
Just some things to ponder until we get feedback from OP in reference to what Glock finds!


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Old 12-05-2012, 17:50   #242
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Originally Posted by cglaspel View Post
I am actually working on ponying up the money for a newer p30 or USP!
Those are both very nice pistols. Maybe a Christmas present for yourself.
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Old 12-05-2012, 18:51   #243
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Originally Posted by LampShadeActual View Post


2) I always buy a gun straight out of the box. I would never buy the counter shelf gun on display. If they are not breaking the seal on a brand new Glock in front of you, I would not buy it. (They are sealed when shipped and only opened at the store. They should only be opened in front of the customer already buying it.)
I don't know where you shop. Every LGS I know verifies the serial on the gun to the serial on the box to the serial on the paperwork as soon as they get them. Opening a pistol box several weeks after you received it to only find out the serial # is not one that you have in inventory would get you a visit from the BATFE. Also when the BATFE shows up for an inspection they compare the numbers in your log to the numbers on the firearm. They don't look at the numbers on the box.
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Old 12-05-2012, 18:58   #244
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Originally Posted by Finestkind View Post
They should be able to tell you if it was used or not. They have to log where they purchased it and log it out to whom they sold it to.


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FYI, Couple of months ago someone on S&W forums thought they may have been sold used 686 'as new' from same sore (Cleveland Location).

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-rev...per-dirty.html

That said, I buy all my reloading supplies there… and several revolver/pistol purchases (both Cleveland/Ashland). Bought a used .500 from them…

I think you'll agree they're top notch. I agree w/ Finestkind, I'd take it back in there and see what they have to say, or will do.

As busy as they are I'd have a hard time believing they would have the time to clean, let alone alter inventory.

Always see like new Glocks in used case and they seem to be getting top dollar for them. Just don't see them doing this…

Good luck.
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Old 12-05-2012, 19:06   #245
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I'd bet a few dollars it was the holster that caused it, there is no possible way the gun could shoot itself. I trust my life with a loaded gen 3 23 with 3.5 pound trigger everyday.


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Old 12-05-2012, 21:55   #246
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Originally Posted by cglaspel View Post
1. The store I bought it from had already removed 90% of it, there was very little for me to remove after I purchased it (Fin, Feather, Fur in Ashland was where I purchased btw)

I personally cleaned and lubricated it with Hoppes #9 gun cleaner, and Hoppes Oil.

2. The discharge happened as I was setting the holster/weapon down, I was about to take my hand off the weapon completely and turn to walk into my kitchen and it fired.

Had to edit this because after thinking about it, i still had contact with the grip frame slightly when it fired.
Thanks. So I will assume again that you did not put any lubricant in both firing pin's and safety pin's channels. I will assume also, that you did not fully disassemble the gun to make sure two channels are dry. Again - I'm not saying it like you did something wrong, I would do it with new gun, especially if someone else cleaned it already, but there is nothing wrong I think to trust your LGS, I'm just trying to get to what we positively know and what we don't...
I will also assume that we don't know how the shop cleaned the gun and if you didn't check the two channels, it could be some unknown at this moment lubricant there.
Do you remember how the channel looked like when you and the second gunsmith found out about the bent spring ? Was it dry, was it dirty, any recollections ?

There are several ways we can go from here - fouling in the safety pin's channel ( I find this highly unusual from the reported rounds fired, but...) or a very common mistake - when whoever put the gun back, probably didn't place the spring in the pin's opening and did bend it when forced the slide, I've done it for myself few times...

Bent safety pin's spring will cause the pin to malfunction, they are several consequences from there, I don't want to speculate, in my experience, the pin did stuck up, I found about it when I cleaned the gun after the shooting...

Pin stuck in top position will allow the firing pin to ignite the primer, how will it cock all the way back and how it will be released, especially when the gun is in the holster - I don't think I know, but bent safety pin's spring is already one contributing factor for the discharge.
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Old 12-05-2012, 22:14   #247
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Actually, it's both a lube and antisieze. I'm a technician
for Mercedes Benz and we use the same stuff for many
applications, also works well for the threads on driving
screws on pullers like on axle bearing puller/installer.
We use Wurth which is made in Germany
You are both - right and not. You're right, because in your work you use this on threads. It does work like lubricant and also prevents seizures. I had a body shop in Europe and went trough bunch of the same product - this is a great company...

In guns however, such "lubricant" is used primarily when they are stored for unknown period of time.
It is heavier and harder "lubricant" for gun use, there is nothing wrong to stay in your Glock but most people will simply go with the general rule to disassemble their new gun, to clean and inspect it and to lube it with lubricant of choice.
With or without it, gun with hard treatment as Tenifer or melonite will operate most likely without any lubricant or with whatever they decide to put in it, I've seen Glock lubed with heavy silicon based Astroglide... It feel just as you lubed it with Enos's red grease, only after shooting is terribly dirty...
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Old 12-05-2012, 22:44   #248
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I seriously want to see a controlled test where someone tries to make a gun fire without physically pulling the trigger...
I had three close friends riding in a humvee in Afghanistan, 10deg out. The gunner had a M249 mounted in the turret but he is sitting in the truck it's so cold. The truck hits a series of bumps and the gun fires 3 rounds without anyone near it. The bolt was back and it was off safe. They were always known to be safe and honest as well as they had no reson to lie about it because the ammo wouldn't have been missed and the squad leader was in the truck. The gun was sent to the shop and the only answer they could get was the gun did have an out of spec part but they couldn't make the gun do it again. It got destroyed just in case.
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Old 12-05-2012, 23:08   #249
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Expand your mind a little kid , If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck i can call it a damn sear .

I suppose there isn't a feed ramp or stripper rail/bar in a glock either - after all they are not mentioned in the armorer's manual or parts list.
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Old 12-06-2012, 00:06   #250
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If the gun was sold as new bit was used and a previous owner did a bad trigger job polishing the FP lug and cruciform and also the FP safety block, then assemble it with a bent FP safety block spring so it is depressed all the time then yes, it could fire when dropped.
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