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Old 11-29-2012, 14:16   #1
cfr
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Ergos for the rest of us?

Greeting’s. Anyone that’s been on forums like these for any length of time has likely seen a quote like this:

“Go buy the one that feels better to you/ in your hands”.

That said, do good ergos really help people shoot better? If not, are they really important?

Now I’m not talking about the “shoot a thousand rounds per week” crew, that can pick up any gun for a day or two and master it because they have lots of disposable cash and free time instead of young children at home. I’m talking about the mere mortals out there like me, that burn up a couple hundred rounds every few weeks.
Thanks!

Last edited by cfr; 11-29-2012 at 15:12..
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Old 11-29-2012, 14:24   #2
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Well, if it feels like a brick in your hand, how motivated are you gonna be to go shoot a lot? If you don't shoot it a lot, how good are you going to be?



I'll take that a step further in a lot of the x vs. y debates and just tell people to buy the gun they think is coolest. Same reason as above...
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Old 11-29-2012, 14:25   #3
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Ergonomics do help quite a bit. However, I'm not going to buy a Hi-Point just because the grip size and grip angle fits me the best.

I'd rather have a slightly ungainly but highly accurate/highly reliable gun than an ergonomically correct gun.
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Old 11-29-2012, 14:27   #4
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Answer is yes, to me.
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Old 11-29-2012, 14:39   #5
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Yes, it's nice when you can drop the magazine, get solid grip on the gun with good trigger geometry and activate/deactivate grip safeties etc without resorting to something weird or having to shift the gun to work it.
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Old 11-29-2012, 14:48   #6
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Ergonomics are important to me but not the only consideration. The best gun in the world won't do me any good if it doesn't feel right.
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Old 11-29-2012, 15:07   #7
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I only keep the guns that fit me.
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Old 11-29-2012, 15:07   #8
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I just thought about the Luger psitol; for years people saw it as a definitive in terms of great 'pointability' and the grip angle- later adapted by Bill Ruger in the MK series. It works okay when used in a bullseye stance one handed, but trigger geometry isn't all that good, esp in a modern combat stance.
Maybe in the days of Applegate and point shooting or the officers' style one handed duellist type shooting, but most folks aren't shooting guns like that now.
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Old 11-29-2012, 15:19   #9
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I have had a LOT of discussions about this topic and I have, at time, tried to remove my own opinions from the subject by sitting back and observing as much as I could.

I sometimes use my wife as a "test subject" because she is very familiar with firearms, in general and her "pets" specifically, but she doesn't have a lot of trigger time with guns she doesn't like. If she likes it,she shoots it, if she doesn't like it she doesn't shoot it much. So I have some observations.

In my mind, there are few guns that "look normal" but have worse ergos than the TT 30 "Tokarev". They can be very accurate but rarely get shot to their potential. My wife can shoot one very well, but struggles to do it. It takes concentration. For her as well, the opposite grip angle is represented by the Glock, She hates Glocks because she struggles with that grip angle as well, she can overcome it but it takes some of the "concentration" from the sights and the target. Somewhere in the middle suits her. She likes 1911s with flat mainspring housings and the Taurus 92.
She is more confident and gets rounds on target faster with the ones she doesn't have to struggle with.

For myself, the first question is "When I bring the gun up are the sights on the spot I am looking at?" Then comes ther trigger ergos, mag release etc. Curiously I recently started shooting the CZ82 which I think is a great pistol, ergonomically, BUT part of that is the slightly vestigal thumbrest on the left side that precludes depressing the mag release without juggling the gun. Surprise, the mag release is ambi and it took NO "extra" training to learn to use. It just seems "natural". OTOH one gripe (minor) I have with my Springfield XDm is that, even with an ambi mag relese, I have to "juggle" the gun to use either side.

In short. If you have only one gun, such as a Tokarev, you can learn "it" probably effficiently, BUT you save a lot of time and enjoy shooting more, if the gun "fits" you from the get go. There is a lot to be sadi for linig up the guns you are considering and seeing what feels right, it leaves you more "room" to learn the controls, and makes the job of hitting something with it in the first place, easier.
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Old 11-29-2012, 16:32   #10
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I know there are some guns that I shoot better that feel better to me. I do not know whether I shoot them better because they feel better or because they feel better I like shooting them more and feel a bit more confident shooting them.
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Old 11-29-2012, 16:49   #11
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She is more confident and gets rounds on target faster with the ones she doesn't have to struggle with.
.
I think both physical fit and mental confidence help one to shoot better.

They can be related to each other.
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Old 11-29-2012, 16:51   #12
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Good ergos tend to help me shoot better, or at least it seems that way.
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Old 11-29-2012, 16:55   #13
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I think it does 100% the Glock beats the hell out of the upper knuckle on my thumb(the one up near the web of your thumb/hand. when I naturally hold a glock the small curve or the ducktail/beavertail at the top of the backstrap or what ever you want to call it ends up falling right on TOP of that and after a magazine or 2 its red and sore...now why would I want to have and or own a gun that does that when there is a TON of other just as reliable guns that shoot just as well but DO NOT do that and feel good in my hand..Can I shoot a Glock well..yes..do I want to own a gun that does not fit my hand right NO!

I just think people are/will be more motivated to shoot something that fits their hands well and that they like over a gun that does not fit as well and or actually hurts your hand.

And in my case and many cases there are guns that are both ergonomically good AND extremely reliable to boot. I mean my Ruger SR9c is every bit as reliable as the Glock 23 ever was and it feels great in hand also as does just for a short list, the Steyr,Sig 226/228,HK Compact,Ruger SR9c,XD(m), 1911's...they are all great for me and I dont think anyone would call them unreliable.

Last edited by CBennett; 11-30-2012 at 07:29..
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Old 11-29-2012, 17:01   #14
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Ergo's, especially where my finger naturally lands on the trigger is more important to me with my SA/DA revolvers. In DA my hand isn't always big enough for proper trigger placement on my N frame. New grips solved the problem.


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Old 11-29-2012, 17:26   #15
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Ergos are very important to me. But I consider ergos in their totality. Example: the HK P30 has a *fantastic* grip, but that large slide lock lever is very annoying. So overall the ergos are so-so.
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Old 11-29-2012, 17:59   #16
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Good points all. Static ergonomics vs dynamic ergonomics are two points to ponder. But fit and feel are important to me in both cases.
Quote:
That said, do good ergos really help people shoot better? If not, are they really important?
Subjectively, yes (to No. 1?). If your grip is solid and comfortable, trigger reach is good for hand size and it points naturally, you're a step or two ahead in the learning to master it curve. Grip and hand placement, arm & wrist strength will also help deal with felt recoil to a large degree.

On the other hand (No. 2?)... if you only have one handgun and the fit and feel are far from perfect, humans have a way of overcoming and/or adapting to "make it work" if their determination and need will overcome the less than desireable quality ergonomics. With those limitations, one might not be able to shoot up to their very best ability, but if they don't know any better and are forced into making due, they can, have and will typically overcome a lot of negatives, with a lot of practice. Hopefully.

My hand size is not your hand size which is not my daughters hand size, etc. Same goes for arm & wrist strength, not to mention pain tolerance. Shoot a gun that draws blood & bites ya via hammer pinch or slide rail or just splits open the web of hand (thenar space)... well, that's just stupid (subjective again) and takes a better person more determined than I to master or deal with it.

Or not... YMMV
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Old 11-29-2012, 20:01   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfr View Post
Greeting’s. Anyone that’s been on forums like these for any length of time has likely seen a quote like this:

“Go buy the one that feels better to you/ in your hands”.

That said, do good ergos really help people shoot better? If not, are they really important?

Now I’m not talking about the “shoot a thousand rounds per week” crew, that can pick up any gun for a day or two and master it because they have lots of disposable cash and free time instead of young children at home. I’m talking about the mere mortals out there like me, that burn up a couple hundred rounds every few weeks.
Thanks!

I am not favorably impressed with your class warfare cop out. The ergonomics of a particular handgun (or other firearm) may assist an individual in being able to shoot more accurately, but quite frankly, I believe that the biggest factor, in shooting accurately, is practice and that usually takes time and money.

As a general proposition, the better the marksman, the more that individual is able to capitalize on the benefits arising from the better ergonomics of a particular firearm and conversely, the less, a poor/mediocre marksman benefits from said ergonomics.

Although, you may wish to cling to your class warfare cop out, so as to make yourself feel better, the reality is, there are ways to develop one's shooting skills and not spend great sums of money or be away from your "young children at home," such as dry firing to practicing trigger control, acquiring and maintaining sight picture/alignment, etc. Furthermore, an individual can shoot close to a brick of 22 long rifle for the cost of 20 – 50 rounds of centerfire ammunition.

The “shoot a thousand rounds per week crew.... can pick up any gun for a day or two and master it” not "because they have lots of disposable cash and free time" but because they have shot thousands and thousands of rounds of ammunition practicing their marksmanship. Becoming a good marksman doesn't just happen like Manna falling from heaven and a poor/mediocre marksman is not going to become a superior marksman by merely spending money on the latest and greatest firearm with the best ergonomics.

RJ

Last edited by RJ's Guns; 11-29-2012 at 20:05..
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Old 11-29-2012, 20:27   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ's Guns View Post
I am not favorably impressed with your class warfare cop out. The ergonomics of a particular handgun (or other firearm) may assist an individual in being able to shoot more accurately, but quite frankly, I believe that the biggest factor, in shooting accurately, is practice and that usually takes time and money.

As a general proposition, the better the marksman, the more that individual is able to capitalize on the benefits arising from the better ergonomics of a particular firearm and conversely, the less, a poor/mediocre marksman benefits from said ergonomics.

Although, you may wish to cling to your class warfare cop out, so as to make yourself feel better, the reality is, there are ways to develop one's shooting skills and not spend great sums of money or be away from your "young children at home," such as dry firing to practicing trigger control, acquiring and maintaining sight picture/alignment, etc. Furthermore, an individual can shoot close to a brick of 22 long rifle for the cost of 20 – 50 rounds of centerfire ammunition.

The “shoot a thousand rounds per week crew.... can pick up any gun for a day or two and master it” not "because they have lots of disposable cash and free time" but because they have shot thousands and thousands of rounds of ammunition practicing their marksmanship. Becoming a good marksman doesn't just happen like Manna falling from heaven and a poor/mediocre marksman is not going to become a superior marksman by merely spending money on the latest and greatest firearm with the best ergonomics.

RJ

Uhhh.... WOW.

You sure got an awful lot out of my very simple question. You do realize that I asked a question, not made a statement, right?

My guess is that you were having a bad day before you read this post, or you're just a miserable sack in general.

God bless bro, I sure hope your day gets better!
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Old 11-29-2012, 20:36   #19
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There is no subsitute for good ergonomics. I recently got rid of 6 Glocks that I loved because I found out that they were responsible for vicious right thumb pain. I had to force my thumb into the frame hard to get a good grip. Recoil forces took their toll with 9 mm and .40 s&w. Since switching to a Browning Hi Power(which is so good I feel like it was made for me) and to CZs(running a very close 2nd to the Hi Power), the pain is gone. Just like cars, bicycles, furniture, clothes, etc., everybody has a different structure/proportions, and not everything will work for everbody.
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Old 11-29-2012, 20:37   #20
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Uhhh.... WOW.

You sure got an awful lot out of my very simple question. You do realize that I asked a question, not made a statement, right?

My guess is that you were having a bad day before you read this post, or you're just a miserable sack in general.

God bless bro, I sure hope your day gets better!
I think he thought you were saying people who shoot good are only able to do so because they are rich and don't have to work and don't have kids to take care of.

His counter argument is you can shoot thousands of rounds of .22 for cheap in your back yard while the kids are watching Barney under the wife's supervision while you flip burgers on the grill between reloads

I'm not sure, but I think the ergos of the spatula determine whether the burgers are overdone or still juicy.

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