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Old 11-29-2012, 01:34   #201
Java Junky
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'Godda real dog who's got your back?
Damn straight I've got his.
Izz'ee people?
Duzz'ee look like @*#&in' people?
But that really ain't the point . . izz'itt?
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:53   #202
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'Godda real dog who's got your back?
Damn straight I've got his.
Izz'ee people?
Duzz'ee look like @*#&in' people?
But that really ain't the point . . izz'itt?
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:04   #203
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Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
That may be your personal belief, but it isn't mine.

I'd risk my life to save my pets. I don't necessarily feel the same about other humans or even some of my own family members.
Exactly!
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:41   #204
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I trust my K9s more than I do folk.I've got over 400lbs worth of K9s.'08.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:00   #205
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The worst part of all this in my opinion, the ugliest bits of the nonchalance and utter lack of empathy or sympathy being spewed by the OP, is his avatar and sig-lines.

Hard to believe he was somebody's baby once...

Check out the Recipient's List in this article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickin_Medal

And that’s just the Brits, folks! The French have their own medal of honor, as do we...

By the bye, there is an error in the report via the above-referenced link... GI Joe saved an estimated 1000-Lives in his historic mission, not 100... Evidently, the person transcribing this information assumed the real number had to be a typo... And yes, he averaged a mile-a-minute...

See paragraph 13 in this more recent reference:

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2012/...-remains/print

Attached are pics of my dearest friend for the past 18-years... I've had dogs and cats, and loved them dearly, but they have nothing on my Bernie.

Wrapped in a towel, and so sick the camera flash didn't even wake him up, Bernie was sent home to die in July of 2010... But he was nonetheless here to celebrate New Year's 2012 with us!

And yes, he's right beside me, right now, as I type this! The effort, research, and expense to make this happen, astonished our vet and his staff, as well as rehabbers in the US and in the UK, while Judy and I didn't think twice about doing any of it. To us at least, there was no alternative!

--Ray

P.S. If there's no place in heaven for Bernie, then they can give my place to someone else!

Last edited by RayB; 12-29-2012 at 03:35..
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:20   #206
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Ok, show of hands... who loves their dog more than they love their wife?
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:18   #207
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Why whenever I log on to (SIC) this, I see the same folks, generally the ones that are religious make illogical arguments, then I see DD and Falman come on and correct them?

Man, and I thought maybe times have changed for the couple weeks I haven't logged into glocktalk! (SIC)
Cute. Really cute! This reply reminds me of an interesting anecdote someone once told me about skeptics and how they get that way: You see there was this fellow who was born, ‘dirt stupid’. As he was growing up all the other kids in the neighborhood didn’t want to play with him because they realized he was stupid enough to be a danger to both himself, AND to others as well.

In school the teachers always made him sit at the back of the classroom where he would have as little negative influence as possible over the brighter, more promising, students. None of the girls would go out with him, either; and he couldn’t get a date (at least, not with a girl) for any of the school dances.

This sorry dolt used to mope around a lot; and, when he wasn’t doing something like sitting on the bench, and counting his toes during football games, (Because the Coach and the rest of the team couldn’t trust him to run the ball in the right direction.) he’d, most often, pass the time by hiding underneath the bleachers, and smoking, ‘weed’. Problem was that sometimes he’d accidentally burn his nose instead of the joint; and, once, he even set the bleachers on fire; but, fortunately for all parties involved, the field wasn’t being used at the time!

Then, one day, an epiphany suddenly occurred in this young idiot’s sad ‘n sorry life. Unfortunately for the rest of mankind a parish priest noticed this, 'sad sack', and decided that he ought to, at least, try to help out. The good father went over to the bench, sat down next to the kid, and did his best to cheer him up. In the mistaken belief that we’re all God’s children, this ingenuous priest offered to give someone he, otherwise, recognized as a genuinely stupid kid benefit of his acumen, and help poor, 'monkey boy' to, ‘get a life’ for himself.

After a brief exchange of pleasantries, and with his confidence won, this, ‘moron cum laude’ confessed that he had been born stupid, had no friends, nobody ever looked up to him, and even his parents used to go on vacation without him. So, the good father, now feeling truly sorry for this genuinely god-forsaken creature, thought a moment before replying, ‘Take heart, my son!’ ‘I know how you can persuade lots and lots of people to respect and admire you.’ ‘In school, become a skeptic - Doubt and question absolutely everything!’ ‘No matter what any of the teachers say, always find a way to contradict them; got it?

The lad’s eyes grew wide; and he replied, ‘Yes, Father, from now on I’ll question everything that everybody tells me and take any opportunity that presents itself to be a loudmouthed contrarian to whatever else is said.’ The priest patted the boy on the head; and said with self-satisfied approval, ‘Attaboy, my son. Attaboy!’ ‘Learn to play this part well; and nobody will ever realize that mud bricks have a greater ability for abstract reasoning than you do!’ The young man thought for a moment, before asking, ‘What’s an abstract reason?’ The priest assured him that he didn’t need to know; and left him sitting there practicing his newfound ability to appear to be smart with the comment, ‘See you in church this Sunday, my son.

To which, ‘Sonny Boy’ replied, ‘Church?’ ‘Why would I want to go to church, Father?’ Aghast, the priest said, ‘Why, in order to commune with God, my son, and save your mortal soul from your own sinful nature and grievous personal disposition.’ The lad looked perplexed, and scratched his head before replying, ‘But, Father, there is no God; and what evidence can you show me to prove that the soul even exists?’ Shocked, and disbelieving his own ears, the now too helpful priest took a step backwards, looked at the young man in disbelief, and remarked, ‘Deus Meus!’ ‘Mea Culpa; mea culpa!

The lad scratched his head again, rolled his eyes inside their sockets, and commented, ‘What’s the matter, Father?’ ‘I’m doing what you told me to do; aren’t I?’ ‘This is how to be a Skeptic; isn’t it!’ ‘Yes, my son,’ replied the priest. ‘You have, indeed, become a skeptic!’ ‘Only, now, you’re the worst kind of skeptic - You’ve become a smug, arrogant, self-righteous, and self-assuming atheist!’ ‘Your very soul, itself, is now in jeopardy of being lost!

Suddenly the young man’s face lit up; he smiled from ear-to-ear; and said, ‘Naaa, I’ve got this skeptic crap down pat; don’t I, Father!’ ‘You know what?’ ‘It feels good; I don’t need nobody for nothing, anymore.’ ‘This skeptic thing really does make my personal, ‘cool quotient’ go way up!

As the old priest walked away he shook his head from side-to-side, held one hand up in the air to wave, and shouted over his shoulder, ‘Be very careful, my son!’ ‘Man was never meant to answer to himself, alone.

Last edited by Arc Angel; 12-01-2012 at 03:54..
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Old 11-29-2012, 16:35   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
That may be your personal belief, but it isn't mine.

I'd risk my life to save my pets. I don't necessarily feel the same about other humans or even some of my own family members.

I have to agree with you on this one.
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Old 11-29-2012, 16:46   #209
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I think the OP was trying to say that, when the family realized one of them had gone in after the dog, they should have said "Oh well, if the kid is that dumb the gene pool is better off", and not tried to save him.
Incorrect. When you teach the value that dogs are equivalent to humans, then this sort of tragedy happens. The son was obviously taught that humans and animals are equal, and he endeavored to save what he perceived to be an equal family member. Then the chain of tragedy occurred. The iorny is the dog who had no clue came back to shore shook himself off and wondered where his pack had gone to.
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Old 11-29-2012, 17:15   #210
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Incorrect. When you teach the value that dogs are equivalent to humans, then this sort of tragedy happens. The son was obviously taught that humans and animals are equal, and he endeavored to save what he perceived to be an equal family member. Then the chain of tragedy occurred. The iorny is the dog who had no clue came back to shore shook himself off and wondered where his pack had gone to.
You a assuming something is "obvious" merely to fit your agenda. It is not "obvious" that he was taught that dogs are human.

He might care for animals enough to have taken the risk, knowing they aren't "Human", but just because he cared.

or

He might just as well have gone after some object that was being washed out because he didn't want it to get washed out, no thinking it was "human" at all. Living right at the ocean I have seen many people go out further than they really should for many reasons, a freaking beach towel for instance. I am sure they didn't think the beach towel was "human"

You don't really know squat about his motives, you just jumped on the report and interpreted it in a way that fit your beliefs.

I dare you to prove that he thought the dog was "human".

Last edited by countrygun; 11-29-2012 at 18:07..
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Old 11-29-2012, 17:46   #211
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The are a few people that I would rescue a animal first before them, obama comes to mind about right now.
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Old 11-29-2012, 17:53   #212
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Ray, would you mind sharing more about Bernie's story? PM if necessary. If not, I understand.
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Old 11-29-2012, 17:53   #213
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I trust my K9s more than I do folk.I've got over 400lbs worth of K9s.'08.
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Old 11-29-2012, 17:57   #214
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Incorrect. When you teach the value that dogs are equivalent to humans, then this sort of tragedy happens. The son was obviously taught that humans and animals are equal, and he endeavored to save what he perceived to be an equal family member. Then the chain of tragedy occurred. The iorny is the dog who had no clue came back to shore shook himself off and wondered where his pack had gone to.
ASSumptions can really make you look like an....ASS.
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Old 11-29-2012, 17:59   #215
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Incorrect. When you teach the value that dogs are equivalent to humans, then this sort of tragedy happens. The son was obviously taught that humans and animals are equal, and he endeavored to save what he perceived to be an equal family member. Then the chain of tragedy occurred. The iorny is the dog who had no clue came back to shore shook himself off and wondered where his pack had gone to.
Not to get too far off topic, but how come christians are always so afraid of dying, anyhow? I sometimes wonder if being a christian makes you more afraid of death, or if being afraid of death makes you a christian. All I know is, it seems like they/you sure worry about it a lot.
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Old 11-29-2012, 18:02   #216
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Not to get too far off topic, but how come christians are always so afraid of dying, anyhow? I sometimes wonder if being a christian makes you more afraid of death, or if being afraid of death makes you a christian. All I know is, it seems like they/you sure worry about it a lot.
Hehe, because we 'uns are afraid of going to hell when we die. We just know we had too much fun while we lived.
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So what makes all human life so valuable? Who said? A cooky religion?

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Old 11-29-2012, 18:11   #217
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I think it'd be accurate to say that anyone as cold as the op has a problem understanding the concept of unconditional love. Essentially, their senses of awareness need to be augmented a bit before they can feel that sort of love, since their sense of love is limited to other humans.

Sent from the bridge of an Imperial Star Destroyer

That is because the op was taught a set of values from a fictional book. Those made him into an uncaring person when it comes to all of our cousins that inhabit this planet with us.
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Old 11-29-2012, 18:30   #218
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Cheers to that. And I would double whatever money you'd put in.

To the "animals are less than people" crowd: read the headlines from your local newspaper. There are more people in there acting like animals.

Animals don't put babies in microwaves, don't open concentration camps, don't kill for pleasure, don't invent nuclear weapons, don't invent thousands of religions and kill one another in the name of their myths, and they most certainly don't destroy the very earth they depend on for life.

I'd say much of the human race behaves far more disgustingly than any dog I've ever known.

And animals don't listen to Glenn Beck.
I usually agree with most everything you say but I have to take issue with the "animals are better than humans" mindset. Animals are limited only by their intellect, not by some superior moral structure. Lions kill newborn cubs of rival lions just to get the females back into heat again. Many predators routinely torture their prey to death just out of fun. Life in the wild is a constant SHTF situation with every critter for itself.

Animals don't invent nukes and have religious wars because they're not advanced enough. I have no doubt that my cat would toss a hand grenade in the aquarium if he could and it would get him what he wants. There's no honor among animals.

But given that humans are animals too we can give ourselves a pat on the back for every thoughtful thing we do.
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Old 11-29-2012, 18:36   #219
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I usually agree with most everything you say but I have to take issue with the "animals are better than humans" mindset. Animals are limited only by their intellect, not by some superior moral structure. Lions kill newborn cubs of rival lions just to get the females back into heat again. Many predators routinely torture their prey to death just out of fun. Life in the wild is a constant SHTF situation with every critter for itself.

Animals don't invent nukes and have religious wars because they're not advanced enough. I have no doubt that my cat would toss a hand grenade in the aquarium if he could and it would get him what he wants. There's no honor among animals.

But given that humans are animals too we can give ourselves a pat on the back for every thoughtful thing we do.

I am not too sure about the intent of your post. But.

We've seen mothers kill their children so they could go ut and party.

Jeffery Dahmer torured his prey.


My bird dog seems to congratulate herself with a joy roll when she retrieves successfully

so were you trying to make a distinction or trying not to?
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Old 11-29-2012, 19:03   #220
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I usually agree with most everything you say but I have to take issue with the "animals are better than humans" mindset. Animals are limited only by their intellect, not by some superior moral structure. Lions kill newborn cubs of rival lions just to get the females back into heat again. Many predators routinely torture their prey to death just out of fun. Life in the wild is a constant SHTF situation with every critter for itself.

Animals don't invent nukes and have religious wars because they're not advanced enough. I have no doubt that my cat would toss a hand grenade in the aquarium if he could and it would get him what he wants. There's no honor among animals.

But given that humans are animals too we can give ourselves a pat on the back for every thoughtful thing we do.

Great post.

I think it's because most people today think the 'animal kingdom' is represented by their 2 labs sleeping and farting on the living room floor while they watch TV at night. Reality shows us that animals are every bit as brutal as we are.

I don't buy the "animals are worth more than humans" bit, but I grew up in the swamps of South LA, not some suburban concrete jungle. Spend a week out here with me and you won't think animals are as 'caring' as you did before.

Last edited by tantrix; 11-29-2012 at 21:24..
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Old 11-29-2012, 20:35   #221
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I am not too sure about the intent of your post. But.

We've seen mothers kill their children so they could go ut and party.

Jeffery Dahmer torured his prey.


My bird dog seems to congratulate herself with a joy roll when she retrieves successfully

so were you trying to make a distinction or trying not to?
Yep, we see humans acting like animals and animals acting like humans wherever we chose to draw that conclusion and yet some find it so hard to believe that we have common ancestors.
In my personal opinion the only difference between humans and all the other animals is genetic. If you heard a story about a woman actually cannibalizing her husband while they had sex you might think it's one of the most disgusting and depraved things you've ever heard, until you read the whole story and found out it was a pair of praying mantises. They get a pass for it and we still think they're cool as hell catching bugs by the porch light.

Find me a sick depraved act of human behavior and I'll find something similar in the animal kingdom and vice versa. Animal or human, there's not really much of a distinction at all. I used to think maybe it was air conditioning. That could be the point where we became something special. Then I read about termite mounds.

Last edited by Gunhaver; 11-29-2012 at 22:50..
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Old 11-29-2012, 20:46   #222
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Find me a sick depraved act of human behavior and I'll find something similar in the animal kingdom and vice versa. Animal or human, there's not really much of a distinction at all. I used to think maybe it was air conditioning. That could be the point where we became something special. Then I read about termite mounds.
Just look at a group of monkeys, or lions, or any other social pack animals. They get along fine until it comes time to mate. Then you have 2 (or more) males that have lived together most of their lives fighting, sometimes to the death, over who gets to have sex with the female.
Now go to any random bar across the country and you can see the same thing with people. Two dudes getting mad over some girl and starting a fight...sometimes ending in death. Mating/sex is one of the driving forces of everything in nature.
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Old 11-29-2012, 21:09   #223
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Incorrect. When you teach the value that dogs are equivalent to humans, then this sort of tragedy happens. The son was obviously taught that humans and animals are equal, and he endeavored to save what he perceived to be an equal family member. Then the chain of tragedy occurred. The iorny is the dog who had no clue came back to shore shook himself off and wondered where his pack had gone to.
You continue to state this interpretation of events as though it's the only possible way it could have happened, and continue to pointedly ignore those who are pointing out all manner of other reasons that young man might have jumped in the water to save his dog. There is absolutely no reason to assume he did so because he was raised to think dogs are his equal; no reason at all.

That you persist in this so stubbornly, and refuse to meaningfully engage those who are pointing out the holes in your argument, tells me you're not terribly worth continuing to have a discussion with. Congratulations. You're trolling about a family's death. How terribly Christ-like of you.
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Old 11-29-2012, 21:14   #224
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Isn't that a choice that each person should get to make on his or her own?

I'm with you, I think I generally would not risk my own life to save my dog and if it came down to my dog or my wife, the dog would go. But I don't presume to make that choice for other people, and there are definitely some dogs I'd save before some people. I definitely wouldn't presume to tell someone else how much money they should spend trying to save their own pet--it's their money and their business.

There's something people are missing here. If I have a beloved pet that is sacred to me and I love it to pieces that's all well and good, but I know there's a damn good chance my mother/father/fiance would probably dive in after me if I dived in after the dog and it looked like I was in trouble. Knowing in my last moments I may have got someone else killed for my decision to go after something that was important to me, would be one of the worst things I can imagine.


Although I can see the other side of the argument, being I would know the risks of diving in the ocean after a dog and a reasonable adult would know the risks of going after me.


I'm not judging anyone that died, or anyone that loves their pets enough to risk their lives to save them. I'm just making the point that peril invites rescue attempts and rescue attempts can be extremely dangerous.
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Old 11-29-2012, 21:16   #225
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That you persist in this so stubbornly, and refuse to meaningfully engage those who are pointing out the holes in your argument, tells me you're not terribly worth continuing to have a discussion with.
If you think this is bad, you should see him in the religious issues sub-forum.
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