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Old 11-29-2012, 21:35   #221
Gunhaver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
I am not too sure about the intent of your post. But.

We've seen mothers kill their children so they could go ut and party.

Jeffery Dahmer torured his prey.


My bird dog seems to congratulate herself with a joy roll when she retrieves successfully

so were you trying to make a distinction or trying not to?
Yep, we see humans acting like animals and animals acting like humans wherever we chose to draw that conclusion and yet some find it so hard to believe that we have common ancestors.
In my personal opinion the only difference between humans and all the other animals is genetic. If you heard a story about a woman actually cannibalizing her husband while they had sex you might think it's one of the most disgusting and depraved things you've ever heard, until you read the whole story and found out it was a pair of praying mantises. They get a pass for it and we still think they're cool as hell catching bugs by the porch light.

Find me a sick depraved act of human behavior and I'll find something similar in the animal kingdom and vice versa. Animal or human, there's not really much of a distinction at all. I used to think maybe it was air conditioning. That could be the point where we became something special. Then I read about termite mounds.

Last edited by Gunhaver; 11-29-2012 at 23:50..
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Old 11-29-2012, 21:46   #222
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
Find me a sick depraved act of human behavior and I'll find something similar in the animal kingdom and vice versa. Animal or human, there's not really much of a distinction at all. I used to think maybe it was air conditioning. That could be the point where we became something special. Then I read about termite mounds.
Just look at a group of monkeys, or lions, or any other social pack animals. They get along fine until it comes time to mate. Then you have 2 (or more) males that have lived together most of their lives fighting, sometimes to the death, over who gets to have sex with the female.
Now go to any random bar across the country and you can see the same thing with people. Two dudes getting mad over some girl and starting a fight...sometimes ending in death. Mating/sex is one of the driving forces of everything in nature.
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Old 11-29-2012, 22:09   #223
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Incorrect. When you teach the value that dogs are equivalent to humans, then this sort of tragedy happens. The son was obviously taught that humans and animals are equal, and he endeavored to save what he perceived to be an equal family member. Then the chain of tragedy occurred. The iorny is the dog who had no clue came back to shore shook himself off and wondered where his pack had gone to.
You continue to state this interpretation of events as though it's the only possible way it could have happened, and continue to pointedly ignore those who are pointing out all manner of other reasons that young man might have jumped in the water to save his dog. There is absolutely no reason to assume he did so because he was raised to think dogs are his equal; no reason at all.

That you persist in this so stubbornly, and refuse to meaningfully engage those who are pointing out the holes in your argument, tells me you're not terribly worth continuing to have a discussion with. Congratulations. You're trolling about a family's death. How terribly Christ-like of you.
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Old 11-29-2012, 22:14   #224
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
Isn't that a choice that each person should get to make on his or her own?

I'm with you, I think I generally would not risk my own life to save my dog and if it came down to my dog or my wife, the dog would go. But I don't presume to make that choice for other people, and there are definitely some dogs I'd save before some people. I definitely wouldn't presume to tell someone else how much money they should spend trying to save their own pet--it's their money and their business.

There's something people are missing here. If I have a beloved pet that is sacred to me and I love it to pieces that's all well and good, but I know there's a damn good chance my mother/father/fiance would probably dive in after me if I dived in after the dog and it looked like I was in trouble. Knowing in my last moments I may have got someone else killed for my decision to go after something that was important to me, would be one of the worst things I can imagine.


Although I can see the other side of the argument, being I would know the risks of diving in the ocean after a dog and a reasonable adult would know the risks of going after me.


I'm not judging anyone that died, or anyone that loves their pets enough to risk their lives to save them. I'm just making the point that peril invites rescue attempts and rescue attempts can be extremely dangerous.
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Old 11-29-2012, 22:16   #225
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That you persist in this so stubbornly, and refuse to meaningfully engage those who are pointing out the holes in your argument, tells me you're not terribly worth continuing to have a discussion with.
If you think this is bad, you should see him in the religious issues sub-forum.
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Old 11-29-2012, 22:23   #226
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You continue to state this interpretation of events as though it's the only possible way it could have happened, and continue to pointedly ignore those who are pointing out all manner of other reasons that young man might have jumped in the water to save his dog. There is absolutely no reason to assume he did so because he was raised to think dogs are his equal; no reason at all.

That you persist in this so stubbornly, and refuse to meaningfully engage those who are pointing out the holes in your argument, tells me you're not terribly worth continuing to have a discussion with. Congratulations. You're trolling about a family's death. How terribly Christ-like of you.
Ow c'mon he has his own special Bible with commandments

1) Thou shalt be judgemental for thou art "special"

2) Thou shalt not question thine own statements for thou art "special"

3) Thou shall go forth and pontificate for thou art "special"

4) Thou needs not consider the words of others for thou art "special"

5) Do not use the name of the Short Bus in vain.

6) Honor thy Mother and Father and Eff everyone elses

etc.


(apologies if I have accidentalyy offended any good Christians, that was not my intent)

Last edited by countrygun; 11-30-2012 at 04:04..
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Old 11-29-2012, 23:05   #227
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
"... There's no honor among animals..."
Bingo! And that's because there's no morality among ("lower") animals.

They do what they do cuz it's what they're wired up to do. There's no choice betewwn Right and Wrong among animals. Humans, OTOH, are blessed/cursed with a set of morals that guides us, instead of/in addition to pure animal instinct.

Having said that, I'm a dog lover all the way. I'm the guy who keeps "doggie treats" in his glove box in case I get to meet a strange dog. I love to wrestle with dogs. I love to scratch 'em behind the ear, trade kisses with 'em, rub noses with them, and just "bond" with them. To me, there's something special about dogs. Dog spelled backwards is...

But they're not human. You'll never see one make an immoral choice. They can't. They're not capable of it.
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Old 11-30-2012, 03:48   #228
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But they're not human. You'll never see one make an immoral choice. They can't. They're not capable of it.

Not speaking specifically about dogs here, but deviant, even criminal animal behavior has indeed been documented...

One very good (true story) movie on the subject is:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116409/

NETFLIX has it.

--Ray
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:13   #229
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Not speaking specifically about dogs here, but deviant, even criminal animal behavior has indeed been documented...

One very good (true story) movie on the subject is:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116409/

NETFLIX has it.

--Ray
Great movie. I had heard the story a longtime before the movie.

I think you would have a hard time making a case that their behavior was "criminal" because in order to be such they would have to be convicted or capable of being convicted and really, any chimp that had passed the bar exam could get them off on an insanity defense since you would have a hard time proving they had Mens Rea to be considered responsible for their actions, unless, of course, it was a kangaroo court.
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:25   #230
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Could Kingarthur....... please change his user name so I no longer despise any otherwise innocent historical figure?
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:32   #231
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Could Kingarthur....... please change his user name so I no longer despise any otherwise innocent historical figure?
Something like "I'maGiantBag", perhaps?
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:30   #232
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Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
Great movie. I had heard the story a longtime before the movie.

I think you would have a hard time making a case that their behavior was "criminal" because in order to be such they would have to be convicted or capable of being convicted and really, any chimp that had passed the bar exam could get them off on an insanity defense since you would have a hard time proving they had Mens Rea to be considered responsible for their actions, unless, of course, it was a kangaroo court.

True enough, I used the term, "criminal" figuratively. Still...

Typically, except for when teaching their young, the big cats kill smoothly and efficiently, and they don't kill for kicks and giggles—they kill for food or to defend against an immediate threat. In short, they kill for a practical purpose.

The aforementioned movie is about two male lions, living together in a cave, that terrorized and killed for the sheer fun of it, and even collected trophies of their prey—a behavior that is almost human, from a criminal POV.

This is among the movies I own.

Another fine movie I recently watched and plan to purchase:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1703148/

NETFLIX also has this one.

--Ray
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:29   #233
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/26...g-to-save-dog/

Ironically, the only survivor was the dog. When people overly anthropomorphize animals into pseudo-humans, this sort of thing happens. No dog is worth the death of an entire family.
Well, they are clearly in heaven. That is a selfless sacrifice. May they rest in peace.
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:04   #234
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Life can be strange. It really, really can. I once owned two superlatively well-trained American Pitbull Terriers. I could put those dogs, ‘on or off a man’ from 50 yards away with nothing more than my voice or a hand signal. For years not a day went by that I didn’t spend an hour, or so, working with them. I don’t think the male dog was ever 100%, ‘tame’; that feral spark was always in him; BUT, he was obedient; and that was his redeeming virtue. On the other hand, over a period of several years, the female and I very closely bonded. I actually had the ability to simply look at her, make eye contact, and she would do whatever I wanted her to do.

The problem I had with her was that she trusted me too well, and was willing to take enormous chances with her physical well-being IF she thought that was what I wanted. Her redeeming virtue (and an occasional lifesaver) was the fact that she was totally obedient, would often watch my eyes, and then do exactly what I signaled her to do. Both Bulldogs knew their right from their left; and I could easily turn them from a hundred yards away to search in whatever direction I wanted. (The female was a champion search and rescue dog that had the finest, ‘nose’ of any animal I’ve, personally, ever worked with.)

So, one day, an intruder enters our home, finds me helpless and on crutches, standing in the middle of the living room; and, the instant that our eyes met, I knew, ‘Why’ he was there. If we didn’t keep those two dogs inside our home, there’s a high probability that I wouldn’t be typing this right now. After the events of that morning, we ended up with two superlatively well-trained and COMPLETELY USELESS attack/guard dogs. Why? Because I loved the both of them so much that I was no longer willing to place either of their lives at risk - THAT is, ‘Why’!

Would I have risked my own life in order to save one of theirs? I suspect that I probably would have for the male; and I definitely would have - in fact I, later on, did - for the female. I look at it this way: If a dog is willing to die for me, why shouldn’t I be willing to do just as much for the dog? Someone once said to me, ‘Dogs are just, ‘little people in fur coats.’ Personally, I believe that remark.

Each of us proceeds through life and towards death in his own way. True story: In 2009 I had a severe episode of congestive heart failure; and I died, twice, while I was in the hospital. ‘Why’ I survived I haven’t the slightest idea? Not the slightest! I should be dead; but, I’m still here. Last year, and all of a sudden, I got this overwhelming desire to buy a high end smoke and carbon monoxide detector - One with all the, ‘bells and whistles’ on it. I go on the Internet, find one, and order it in. As soon as it arrived I got out my toolbox and mounted it to the wall. All the while I had no idea, ‘Why’ I felt that I had to have one of these things? (It made no sense because we already had some cheapy-cheapy smoke detectors.)

About two months after I installed this high end, dual sensor detector in our home, I’m sitting at my desk, doing what I’m doing now; and, so help me, all of a sudden I wake up with my face in the keyboard, a body that doesn’t want to work, our beautiful Maine Coon Cat biting hard into my leg, and the new detector screaming like an air raid siren!

My brain didn't want to work. I looked at the door and said a prayer asking God to help me to get there. My feet felt like lead! I was very uncoordinated; and, when I got to the door, I couldn’t make my hands work in order to turn the door knob. I had just so much strength left; and, on my last try, I used both hands to finally make that knob turn. The door finally opened, and I stumbled out onto the porch.

It took two or three minutes for my coordination to, sort of, return; and, when it did, I held my breath as I ran back into the house and began opening all the windows up. My wife wasn’t home; but me, our Bulldog, and three cats, all, made it out alive. What had happened was that a water pipe had ruptured underneath the house; and the plumber was using a large propane heater in order to dry out the flooring. Carbon monoxide was, of course, a byproduct of all that heat. (Duh!)

When I went back into the house in order to get those windows open I knew that I was risking my life; but, for the past 6 years my three, ‘best friends’ have been my wife, and two very beautiful - and much smarter than you might think - cats!

You go as you go.’ 2009, and 2011 were NOT my time to leave. (I don’t know, ‘Why’?) As far as the people in the originating news story go? It WAS their time. There are any number of disbelieving atheists on this board who - I am certain - are going to go, ‘straight to Hell’ when they die. No matter how someone dies, though, if the circumstances of his death are, ‘agreeable to God’ (If you are able to benefit yourself by passing with a clear conscience.) then, as far as I’m concerned, your soul is going to be that much better off for it.

Remember, ‘He’s the God of the Living, not of the dead.’ What’s one lifetime, anyway! Christ said, ‘In my Father’s house there are, ‘many mansions’. I suggest that all those who are dismayed by, both, this event and these deaths should, at the very least, change their spiritual point-of-view.

Last edited by Arc Angel; 11-30-2012 at 08:31..
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:13   #235
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It sounds like your god is trying to kill you.
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Old 11-30-2012, 12:31   #236
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What does my being a carnivore have to do with my pets?

Do you eat your pets on a regular basis?

My pets give me comfort and entertainment. My pets don't vote for Democrats or Republicans. My pets don't go and rape & kill others because of religious beliefs.
Dogs kill people regularly.
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Old 11-30-2012, 12:49   #237
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Old 11-30-2012, 13:15   #238
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Dogs kill people regularly.
Not nearly as regularly as people kill dogs. And I'm not referring to humane euthanasia for medical reasons or population control or some other valid reason, I'm referring to sickos like md2lgyk. Unfortunately, the world is full of them.

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Old 11-30-2012, 14:18   #239
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/26...g-to-save-dog/

Ironically, the only survivor was the dog. When people overly anthropomorphize animals into pseudo-humans, this sort of thing happens. No dog is worth the death of an entire family.
My MWD (Military Working Dog) is like family, and he would sacrifice his life for mine.

Considering our job is to find explosives, as well as find criminals who run away...he protects me every day, and I have no doubt he would give his life to protect me. Would I do the same...I think I would...It's a bond and a love that people like you will never understand.

This year, an MWD was shot 5 times and still continued to protect her handler while in Afghanistan...if that's not love and commitment, I don't know what is...Our dogs are certainly NOT trained to do that.

here is a pic of my dog Rudo, posing for the camera.

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Old 11-30-2012, 16:06   #240
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This thread was started on a false premise, a twisting of the facts and flawed logic so egergious that it has forced me to go to an horrifying extreme---I am forced to agree with "gunhaver".

The "rescue was a cluster *****. started by the boy going after the dog BUT I have to ask, unless this kid was raised on a farm and used to killing his 4-H projects, would it be considered "normal" for a kid to just watch a family pet die?

Don't we generally get concerned about kids who can watch animals die?

It was the job of the parents to be "in charge" at the beach. It is a dangerous place and I live very close to the same type of beach. It is not a place where you can afford not to pay attention. Several things failed, but a kid being concerned about his pet wasn't the stupid part of the tragedy.
What a silly requirement in these post-Modern days-> "parents...'in charge'"? What are you thinking? :-)
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