GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-21-2012, 17:11   #51
WilliamDahl
Senior Member
 
WilliamDahl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: TX Gulf Coast
Posts: 229
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
I don't care who it is, or how hard they try - they'll never get the 9x19 cartridge to propel a 158gr SJHP at 1400-1500 FPS. The barrel length won't matter, either.
Never say never... I suspect that with the right single shot pistol loaded with a full compressed case of an extremely fast powder while also having an extremely thick barrel, it would be possible. Basically a controlled explosion...
WilliamDahl is offline  
Old 11-21-2012, 17:47   #52
unit1069
Senior Member
 
unit1069's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: So. Central US
Posts: 8,432
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy W View Post
I remember reading something, I believe by Mas Ayoob, who said that was the reason behind the 9mm Hydra-Shoks poor performance compared to the same design in .40 or even more so in .45. The 9mm has a smaller cavity to begin with and when you put a post in the middle of it, that leaves even less room.
I've read that Federal HST is actually the Hydra-Shok bullet without the post. (AKA "Hydra-Shok Two")

Whether it's a tweaked HS or not HST amazes me with its consistent expansion in all calibers.
__________________
Rocket Scientist
unit1069 is offline  
Old 11-21-2012, 20:42   #53
Andy W
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,844
Quote:
Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
I've read that Federal HST is actually the Hydra-Shok bullet without the post. (AKA "Hydra-Shok Two")

Whether it's a tweaked HS or not HST amazes me with its consistent expansion in all calibers.
It may be based on a hydra-shok without the post but that's definitely not all they've done. Look at the slits in the jacket on the HST and also the shape of the round when expanded then compare to a similar caliber and weight hydra-shok. Definitely not the same bullet. I've read Federal puts wire framework in the bullets to give them that consistent flower shape upon expansion.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine
Andy W is offline  
Old 11-24-2012, 16:00   #54
Ike Arumba
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 29
Ballistics By The Inch's 9mm page at http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html shows one load with a heavy bullet, the 147gr Hydra-Shok. They measured 1007 fps out of a 5 inch barrel, 1067 fps out of a 10 inch barrel, and a max of 1096 fps out of a 17 inch barrel. There just isn't enough powder capacity in that case to gain much advantage from a long barrel using a heavy bullet. I doubt that monkeying around with faster powders generating excessive pressures will push this up to anywhere near 357 mag velocity.
Ike Arumba is offline  
Old 11-24-2012, 17:32   #55
Kingarthurhk
Isaiah 53:4-9
 
Kingarthurhk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by kswiss View Post
115 grain +p+ 1450 FPS and 501 ft/lbs!!!! HOLY ****


Underwood 9mm 115 gr +P+ JHP Ammo Test - YouTube
40 grain .22LR 1,400 FPS. Whoopdi Doo.
__________________
Glock 17, 19, 20SF, 21C, 22, 26, 27, Glock E-Tool, Glock knife
Quod ego haereticus appellari sequere Jesum.
Kingarthurhk is offline  
Old 11-24-2012, 17:49   #56
jlavallee
Senior Member
 
jlavallee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 816
I love the 9mm but it is in the mid range of SD along with the .45 ACP and .40 S&W.

.357 Mag can go to a much higher level as long as it has the barrel legnth where it is more of a hunting round than a SD round as can the 10mm.

The loads sold by manufacturers as SD loads are all pretty similar and are designed to meet the general FBI specs and such. I can load one of my .357's with a really hot load and if it goes through the target then energy was wasted and now even if I hit, I have a bullet looking for a backstop. Not good.

Lots of folks like to make two holes when they hunt, that is not a good idea in SD. 400-500 ft.lbs in a human is what seems to work well.
__________________
Someday, I may be found lying dead in a ditch somewhere, but Iíll be lying in a pile of brass.

Track bills in Congress and tell politicians your opinion. www.popvox.com
jlavallee is offline  
Old 11-24-2012, 17:52   #57
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
40 grain .22LR 1,400 FPS. Whoopdi Doo.
174 vs 501ft lbs
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline  
Old 11-24-2012, 19:23   #58
countrygun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 17,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy W View Post
Just an observation. Because the 9mm is a smaller round, the hollowpoint cavity is inherently smaller than in a larger caliber. All early hollowpoint designs were suseptible to plugging but the 9mm especially so because the cavities were smaller than in, for instance, a .45 ACP. Even barring the cavity being plugged with cloth or something, there is significantly less room for stuff to get into the cavity and facilitate expansion. I remember reading something, I believe by Mas Ayoob, who said that was the reason behind the 9mm Hydra-Shoks poor performance compared to the same design in .40 or even more so in .45. The 9mm has a smaller cavity to begin with and when you put a post in the middle of it, that leaves even less room.

.355 vs.357 whoopie.

But the 9mm has to be shaped to feed and not deform on the feed ramp.

I had some of the early HSs in .38 which were basically a Hollow based wadcutter reversed with a post. they were impressive, but, there is always a point of diminishing returns with everything and unfrtunately humans are slow to grasp this. We think "If a certain velocity is good, then more must be better."

As one poster has pointed out a bullet that goes through and through spends less energy on the target than one at less velocity that remains in the target. It is also that way with expansion but it is very hard to get peple to grasp. The only "energy" that can cause the expansion of a bullet is that which the bullet itself brought with it. In essence the bullet spends a prtion of it's energy on itself, of course mangling tissue in the bargain. But it is that nasty "diminishing returns" issue that makes it fodder for speculation.

Ihe 9mm HS with the post is an example of something not being a "great idea across the board". If you took a .38/.357 bullet, gave it the same profile and incresed the cavity opening proportionate to the extra.002" and fired it at the same velocity into the same medium I doubt there would be much difference.

What is overlooked, when people start choosing up sides and picking their favrite paradigm to defend, is the completely uncontrolable variables involve in external ballistics in the SD/Gunfighting" realm. Everything from the target weight it's BMI fluid in the tissues, clothing, angle of shot, and many other factors play into "what would be the perfect round for THIS situation?".

I have faced it, for instance, in chosing a hunting bullet for deer. Lets say I happen to know, that if I drive a fast expanding 130gn .308 bullet at top speed it will flatted a deer, if I get the "picture perfect broadside shot, in it's tracks. On the other hand a shot where the deer is quartering may have the problem of the bullet blowing up on a large bone. If I choose say a 165gn bullet it would smash throught a hipbone and reach vitals, but on a broadside shot it will likely break a rib on the way in, expand a bit, hopefully hit the vitals and break a rib or two as it exits to spend it's energy on something else. I can almost promise it will not drop the deer as fast as the lighter fast expanding bullet.

This is similar to the choices we make with SD ammo, couple it with the fact that the "deer" is likely shooting back, and all the other variables and we shuld be askiking "How Many Guns Do you carry to meet all the possiblilities?" We each have to make a choice and before we are critical of the chices of others, bear in mind "every handgun round .22 lr and up up HAS stopped someone, somewhere, with one shot and every handgun round from .22lr up HAS failed to stop someone, somewhere, with one shot."

Handguns suck at stopping people but they fit on the belt nicely. Your choice might work or it might not, same with the other guy's. But at least you both made a choice and that is 99% of the fight anyway.
countrygun is offline  
Old 11-24-2012, 22:14   #59
Scoob
Senior Member
 
Scoob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NC
Posts: 464
Yeah I'm sorry but 9mm will never be 357 magnum or even 357 sig. What 9mm has in it's favor is low recoil and high capacity. That is a great thing and 9mm is my second favorite cartridge for that reason.
Scoob is offline  
Old 11-25-2012, 08:44   #60
Suby
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 47
Am I the only one thankful that 9mm is not equal to a .357 magnum? cost, blast, weight? I love my 6" 357 magnum but I have only carried it in the woods I carry my 9mm 24/7 365.
when I hear people saying they would never carry anything less powerful than a ."357 MAGNUM" I ask them if I can see it...they walk to their safe and get it out and show me, I then laugh.
Suby is offline  
Old 11-25-2012, 12:28   #61
WiskyT
Malcontent
 
WiskyT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 11,700
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suby View Post
Am I the only one thankful that 9mm is not equal to a .357 magnum? cost, blast, weight? I love my 6" 357 magnum but I have only carried it in the woods I carry my 9mm 24/7 365.
when I hear people saying they would never carry anything less powerful than a ."357 MAGNUM" I ask them if I can see it...they walk to their safe and get it out and show me, I then laugh.
Yup. All the guys in my club are died-in-the-wool 1911 guys. They all have carry permits. Their gun is always in their range bag. My gun is always on my hip or in my pocket and it aint no 40 ounce steel 45.
__________________
Drugs are bad because if you do drugs you're a hippie and hippies suck.
Eric Cartman


"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting."-General Curtis E. LeMay
WiskyT is offline  
Old 11-25-2012, 13:29   #62
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 15,846
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiskyT View Post
Does it shoot 158 grainers at 1500fps?
The heaviest bullet loaded for 9x19 us the 147gr JHP, and the +p loading yields 1000 FPS or so. The 9mm will never equal the famed .357 loading of a 125gr JHP going 1450 FPS.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions

Last edited by SCmasterblaster; 11-25-2012 at 13:31..
SCmasterblaster is offline  
Old 11-25-2012, 14:20   #63
countrygun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 17,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suby View Post
Am I the only one thankful that 9mm is not equal to a .357 magnum? cost, blast, weight? I love my 6" 357 magnum but I have only carried it in the woods I carry my 9mm 24/7 365.
when I hear people saying they would never carry anything less powerful than a ."357 MAGNUM" I ask them if I can see it...they walk to their safe and get it out and show me, I then laugh.
There is a good chance I might reach on my belt to show you a 3" model 65
countrygun is offline  
Old 11-25-2012, 16:38   #64
WiskyT
Malcontent
 
WiskyT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 11,700
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
The heaviest bullet loaded for 9x19 us the 147gr JHP, and the +p loading yields 1000 FPS or so. The 9mm will never equal the famed .357 loading of a 125gr JHP going 1450 FPS.
There have been some 158's in 9mm for suppressed subguns.
__________________
Drugs are bad because if you do drugs you're a hippie and hippies suck.
Eric Cartman


"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting."-General Curtis E. LeMay
WiskyT is offline  
Old 11-25-2012, 17:12   #65
dkf
Senior Member
 
dkf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suby View Post
Am I the only one thankful that 9mm is not equal to a .357 magnum? cost, blast, weight? I love my 6" 357 magnum but I have only carried it in the woods I carry my 9mm 24/7 365.
when I hear people saying they would never carry anything less powerful than a ."357 MAGNUM" I ask them if I can see it...they walk to their safe and get it out and show me, I then laugh.
As much as I like the .357mag and revolvers I have no interest in carrying one all the time. Hiking in the woods or hunting no problem. Carrying all the time I will take the double or more round capacity, lighter weight, more compact, no cylinder bulge pistol. Don't really matter if it is 9mm, .40, .357sig and etc.

Quote:
There have been some 158's in 9mm for suppressed subguns.
Must move at half the speed of smell.

Last edited by dkf; 11-25-2012 at 17:13..
dkf is offline  
Old 11-25-2012, 17:28   #66
WiskyT
Malcontent
 
WiskyT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 11,700
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkf View Post
Must move at half the speed of smell.
I don't know what the commercial ammo does, but I loaded some 158LRN to some old Lyman data and got 900fps out of a pistol.
__________________
Drugs are bad because if you do drugs you're a hippie and hippies suck.
Eric Cartman


"If you kill enough of them, they stop fighting."-General Curtis E. LeMay
WiskyT is offline  
Old 11-25-2012, 17:34   #67
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 15,846
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman11 View Post
I'm sure you already know this, but I wish to reiterate. 9mm owners are very defensive about their guns. In their own minds the 9mm round is every bit as good as any other round out there despite proof to the opposite. It's a pride of ownership thing
Look at me. The only Glock I own (since 1989) has been the G17 9mm.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline  
Old 11-25-2012, 21:28   #68
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Nanuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 252
9mm = Girl's gun


Nanuk is offline  
Old 11-26-2012, 04:17   #69
WilliamDahl
Senior Member
 
WilliamDahl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: TX Gulf Coast
Posts: 229
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkf View Post
As much as I like the .357mag and revolvers I have no interest in carrying one all the time. Hiking in the woods or hunting no problem. Carrying all the time I will take the double or more round capacity, lighter weight, more compact, no cylinder bulge pistol. Don't really matter if it is 9mm, .40, .357sig and etc.
There have been .357mag semi-autos...

http://www.gunreports.com/news/news/...ic_3679-1.html
http://www.coonaninc.com/products.ph...94544cf8c07fcb
http://www.magnumresearch.com/Firear...gnum-Black.asp
WilliamDahl is offline  
Old 11-26-2012, 04:22   #70
WilliamDahl
Senior Member
 
WilliamDahl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: TX Gulf Coast
Posts: 229
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
9mm = Girl's gun
Like this?

Caliber Corner
WilliamDahl is offline  
Old 11-26-2012, 05:28   #71
clarkz71
Senior Member
 
clarkz71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,606
I had the Desert Eagle 357, nice gun
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Lumberg View Post
Real Men of Genius....Here's to you, Mister self proclaimed-genius-surrounded by idiots!
.
G23 gen3 .40/.357 Sig
Florida Glocker #1923
clarkz71 is online now  
Old 11-26-2012, 07:07   #72
dkf
Senior Member
 
dkf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,299
I know there are a few out there. Look what they weigh. A 4.5lb pistol that holds 9 rounds of .357mag is far from ideal for carry. The Coonan isn't much better in the weight aspect and looses a couple rounds. Range only guns in my book.

Last edited by dkf; 11-26-2012 at 07:21..
dkf is offline  
Old 11-26-2012, 10:00   #73
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 15,846
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiskyT View Post
There have been some 158's in 9mm for suppressed subguns.
And it was going way below 1100 FPS. Subsonic, for sure.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline  
Old 11-26-2012, 11:27   #74
Poohgyrr
trout fear me!
 
Poohgyrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Sutter's Fort
Posts: 1,163


Quote:
Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
:: I don't know of any semi-auto .38 Special handguns but I was able to shoot a .357 Magnum Desert Eagle at the range once. It was a massive, heavy pistol completely unsuited for my personal uses. :::
FYI, Coonan 357 Magnum Autoloader. 5" stainless steel. Also shoots 38 S&W Special. I sold this before Dan resumed production, but it remains one of the most accurate pistols I have ever shot, two handed and standing - using standard full power (for today's standards) ammo. Much much less recoil than a 4" revolver, and quite a bit more velocity.

A great pistol, and now magazines are available once again.

Caliber Corner

Caliber Corner
__________________
John Luke 22:36 Ephesians 4:26-32
357Sig Club #3531 S&W Club #10 BHP Club #35
"Life brings both sorrows and joys alike. It is what a man does with them - not what they do to him - that is the true test of his mettle." T. Roosevelt

Last edited by Poohgyrr; 11-26-2012 at 11:33..
Poohgyrr is offline  
Old 11-26-2012, 16:11   #75
unit1069
Senior Member
 
unit1069's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: So. Central US
Posts: 8,432
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poohgyrr View Post
FYI, Coonan 357 Magnum Autoloader. 5" stainless steel. Also shoots 38 S&W Special.
I hadn't thought of that although I'm well aware that the .357 Magnum revolvers shoot .38 Special.

But with a .357 Magnum semi-auto pistol that heavy I doubt many owners would choose to download the ammo except for range practice.
__________________
Rocket Scientist
unit1069 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 18:29.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,331
454 Members
877 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42