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Old 11-19-2012, 14:50   #26
oldman11
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Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
I don't care who it is, or how hard they try - they'll never get the 9x19 cartridge to propel a 158gr SJHP at 1400-1500 FPS. The barrel length won't matter, either.
I'm sure you already know this, but I wish to reiterate. 9mm owners are very defensive about their guns. In their own minds the 9mm round is every bit as good as any other round out there despite proof to the opposite. It's a pride of ownership thing
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Old 11-19-2012, 15:02   #27
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9 inches of penetration doesn't come close to equalling .357. Most likely would have had worse penetration after punching through clothes AND ribs. I personally would choose a 124gr +P Gold Dot over this +P+ load any day. That great expansion does nothing for you if it can't reach vital organs after hitting bone, like after going through an arm before hitting the chest. No thanks.

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Old 11-19-2012, 16:33   #28
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Originally Posted by oldman11 View Post
I'm sure you already know this, but I wish to reiterate. 9mm owners are very defensive about their guns. In their own minds the 9mm round is every bit as good as any other round out there despite proof to the opposite. It's a pride of ownership thing
While I agree that some 9mm owners fit your description don't believe most of them do.

My own thinking is that with the advances in bullet technology over the past two decades the effectiveness of 9mm has been greatly enhanced, not that it wasn't dropping felons and enemy combatants for one hundred years prior to that.
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Old 11-19-2012, 17:34   #29
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Yeah, if you believe the vel numbers, there still is that pesky Sectional density thing. The short for caliber 9mm just isn't going to have the same penetration as a 125gr 357 @ the same vel, bullet design being the same. Some are really impressed w/ the energy numbers light & fast have but unless the bullet makes it into the vitals, it doesnt' mean a lot & for handgun, erngy number diff just aren't taht big a deal. So 400# vs 500#, so what?
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Old 11-19-2012, 17:40   #30
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Which one you suppose gonna hold more powder?

Caliber Corner

Damn physics...
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Old 11-19-2012, 17:49   #31
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115 grain +p+ 1450 FPS and 501 ft/lbs!!!! HOLY ****


Underwood 9mm 115 gr +P+ JHP Ammo Test - YouTube
So the theory here is that the only reason 9mm didn't measure up to .357 is we just never realized you could load up 9mm to 1400+ fps, huh?

Gosh, why didn't we ever think of that?

Not a good idea.
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Old 11-19-2012, 17:51   #32
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I'm sure you already know this, but I wish to reiterate. 9mm owners are very defensive about their guns. In their own minds the 9mm round is every bit as good as any other round out there despite proof to the opposite. It's a pride of ownership thing
The they have an awful lot of shootings where numerous hits fail to stop or kill, good guys and bad, that they have to ignore.
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Old 11-19-2012, 18:50   #33
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Which one you suppose gonna hold more powder?

Caliber Corner

Damn physics...
If case capacity is the critical factor why is the 9mm just as effective as the .38 Special? Of course the former is loaded to a much higher pressure. My own opinion is that I'll take a high capacity 9mm over a .38 Special revolver, all things being equal.

Technology is ever-evolving and since the 9mm and .357 Magnum bullet size is almost identical perhaps someday the 9mm can safely be loaded to match the Magnum. My problem with accepting the hyper velocity rounds is the danger of overpressure due to pushing the envelope.

The Magnum has a lot of head start in bullet design from its inception, from what I've learned. In these threads I've wondered why the specialty ammo companies aren't using the 125-grain .357sig bullets in their hyper hot 9mm products. That would make sense to me.

For example, Hornady's 124-grain XTP 9mm bullet has the deep cavity design whereas their 124-grain .357sig is a shallow cup design. For boutique ammo companies pushing the velocity envelope wouldn't it make sense for them to load the Speer 6-petal 125-grain shallow cup .357sig bullet in their 9mm +P+ rounds advertised at 1400 fps?
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Old 11-19-2012, 19:28   #34
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In these threads I've wondered why the specialty ammo companies aren't using the 125-grain .357sig bullets in their hyper hot 9mm products. That would make sense to me.

For example, Hornady's 124-grain XTP 9mm bullet has the deep cavity design whereas their 124-grain .357sig is a shallow cup design. For boutique ammo companies pushing the velocity envelope wouldn't it make sense for them to load the Speer 6-petal 125-grain shallow cup .357sig bullet in their 9mm +P+ rounds advertised at 1400 fps?
I think they will, just need a little more time. I'm not a business man but I would venture to guess that the boutique manufactures need time to process results and feed back, to weigh certain ideas based on demand and other things. What takes a couple of years for us to see might only seem like only the blink of an eye to a manufacturer. I'm not a 9mm fan but if it's prolific nature leads the way for construction improvements...I think it will be worth the wait for all terminal ballistic enthusiasts and defensive shooters among all service caliber variations. Things seem to be moving along quite quickly because of the big names and boutique manufacturer's efforts, IMHO.
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Old 11-19-2012, 19:30   #35
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If case capacity is the critical factor why is the 9mm just as effective as the .38 Special? Of course the former is loaded to a much higher pressure. My own opinion is that I'll take a high capacity 9mm over a .38 Special revolver, all things being equal.

Technology is ever-evolving and since the 9mm and .357 Magnum bullet size is almost identical perhaps someday the 9mm can safely be loaded to match the Magnum. My problem with accepting the hyper velocity rounds is the danger of overpressure due to pushing the envelope.
Manufacturers gotta keep .38 special at pressures that the old guns can handle. It's a question of frame strength. In the 50's Elmer Keith was loading a 173 grain cast boolit in .38 special brass that would make 1,200+ fps from a 3-1/2" model 27. Try putting a 173 grain bullet in a 9mm case and see how much room is left for powder. You were on to something though... if loaded to similar pressures, there is no way the 9mm could keep up. Why? Case volume. It will do the same work at lower pressures, or outperform it with equal pressure.

And what type of technology is going to hit the 9mm that couldn't also be used in the .357 mag?
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Old 11-19-2012, 20:07   #36
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Manufacturers gotta keep .38 special at pressures that the old guns can handle. It's a question of frame strength. In the 50's Elmer Keith was loading a 173 grain cast boolit in .38 special brass that would make 1,200+ fps from a 3-1/2" model 27. Try putting a 173 grain bullet in a 9mm case and see how much room is left for powder. You were on to something though... if loaded to similar pressures, there is no way the 9mm could keep up. Why? Case volume. It will do the same work at lower pressures, or outperform it with equal pressure.
Well that's why I'll take 9mm over a .38 Special revolver; twice the number of rounds with at least the equivalent or better stopping power without any additional weight. I don't know of any semi-auto .38 Special handguns but I was able to shoot a .357 Magnum Desert Eagle at the range once. It was a massive, heavy pistol completely unsuited for my personal uses. So the large case volume --- in my opinion --- has definite drawbacks when it comes to size and weight.

Quote:
And what type of technology is going to hit the 9mm that couldn't also be used in the .357 mag?
The 9mm may never equal the real or potential power of .357 Magnum but since the Magnum is already the benchmark standard for handgun effectiveness I think any additional configurations for that caliber would have special applications over and above personal self-defense requirements.
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Old 11-19-2012, 20:17   #37
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And you 9mm gun explodes in the process of firing these hi pressure loads.
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Old 11-19-2012, 20:17   #38
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Does it shoot 158 grainers at 1500fps?
No, because the 9mm will never have a 8 3/8" barrel that Hornaday uses for that 1500fps!
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Old 11-19-2012, 20:20   #39
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No, because the 9mm will never have a 8 3/8" barrel that Hornaday uses for that 1500fps!
Mine does it in a 4".
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Old 11-19-2012, 20:49   #40
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Mine does it in a 4".
Yeah, but you don't have 17+1 capacity.

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Old 11-20-2012, 01:04   #41
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Yeah, but you don't have 17+1 capacity.

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Old 11-20-2012, 15:02   #42
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The they have an awful lot of shootings where numerous hits fail to stop or kill, good guys and bad, that they have to ignore.
I think a lot of this comes from the fact that 9mm is the most widely used handgun caliber. Most thugs tend to buy the cheapest ammo, and often have poor shooting skills. Bad ammo + bad shot placement = failure to stop. NYPD issues the G19 and there have been many reports of one-shot stops.

I carry a 9mm, 45ACP, or 10mm Glock depending on my mood. I like them all for different reasons. However, I find that I have tighter groups and just shoot better with the 9mm.

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Old 11-20-2012, 15:51   #43
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I think a lot of this comes from the fact that 9mm is the most widely used handgun caliber. Most thugs tend to buy the cheapest ammo, and often have poor shooting skills. Bad ammo + bad shot placement = failure to stop. NYPD issues the G19 and there have been many reports of one-shot stops.

I carry a 9mm, 45ACP, or 10mm Glock depending on my mood. I like them all for different reasons. However, I find that I have tighter groups and just shoot better with the 9mm.
The 9mm never had a great reputation as a stopper no matter what bullet was in it, or how much it cost, until relatively recently in the cartridge's lifespan. Up until (depending on who you talk to) sometime in the 1990's when bullet design "picked up". Pretty much the SD ammo until then stunk on ice or was still "experimental".
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Old 11-20-2012, 16:00   #44
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Yeah, but you don't have 17+1 capacity.

True, that's why I carry a G27
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Old 11-20-2012, 16:05   #45
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9mm still doesn't equal .357
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Old 11-20-2012, 17:56   #46
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I'm not sure I'd want to shoot this stuff through my m&p. for one its not gonna be pleasant to shoot and 2) I'm not sure it's safe.

Give me some Speer Gold Dots or 147 grain HSTs

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Old 11-20-2012, 21:00   #47
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And per usual with 9mm bullets pushed beyond their velocity limits, the penetration sucks.

Also, 501 ft/lbs doesn't come close to full power .357 Magnum loads. Shoot some 125gr Buffalo Bore .357 loads @ 1700 fps and tell me if these 115gr Underwood loads come close. I'll save you the time: they don't.

Sorry, this thread is a fail.
Velocity is quite impressive, and the energy....but yes, those bullets were pushed beyond the envelope. I know, because I'm looking at them on my desk. :-)

In the real world, I have to think they WILL NOT expand like that.
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:41   #48
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I think a lot of this comes from the fact that 9mm is the most widely used handgun caliber. Most thugs tend to buy the cheapest ammo, and often have poor shooting skills. Bad ammo + bad shot placement = failure to stop. NYPD issues the G19 and there have been many reports of one-shot stops.

I carry a 9mm, 45ACP, or 10mm Glock depending on my mood. I like them all for different reasons. However, I find that I have tighter groups and just shoot better with the 9mm.
I concur with your thoughts. However. I'd also like to add that there have also been numerous failures to stop with .40s and .45s in handguns. There was one a few years back where a BG was shot like 17 times center mass with .40 180 grain Gold Dots and .223 Hornady TAP and he was still fighting when the responding officers cuffed him. He didn't die until later in the hostpital. I remember another similar incident with the .40 round. Before caliber or expansion even become an issue, rounds need to 1.) penetrate deep enough to hit the vitals and 2.) said rounds have to actually hit and damage something vital. In the aforementioned case, the FBI actually investigated the shooting and determined yes, they shot the suspect a whole bunch of times and yes, the .40 rounds had penetrated deep enough (.223 rounds did not) and expanded but none of the rounds which struck the assailant hit anything that would quickly stop the fight ie: CNS, heart, lungs, major arteries, liver.

So, before we blame a failure to stop on the fact the shooter used a 9mm, we first need to consider whether or not penetraton and shot placement were adequate before we should even consider whether he should have used a bigger caliber. Yes, .40 and .45 will inflict more damage than 9mm in an equally placed shot but that doesn't mean much if you don't hit anything vital.
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:50   #49
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The 9mm never had a great reputation as a stopper no matter what bullet was in it, or how much it cost, until relatively recently in the cartridge's lifespan. Up until (depending on who you talk to) sometime in the 1990's when bullet design "picked up". Pretty much the SD ammo until then stunk on ice or was still "experimental".
Just an observation. Because the 9mm is a smaller round, the hollowpoint cavity is inherently smaller than in a larger caliber. All early hollowpoint designs were suseptible to plugging but the 9mm especially so because the cavities were smaller than in, for instance, a .45 ACP. Even barring the cavity being plugged with cloth or something, there is significantly less room for stuff to get into the cavity and facilitate expansion. I remember reading something, I believe by Mas Ayoob, who said that was the reason behind the 9mm Hydra-Shoks poor performance compared to the same design in .40 or even more so in .45. The 9mm has a smaller cavity to begin with and when you put a post in the middle of it, that leaves even less room.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:42   #50
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9mm still doesn't equal .357
Agreed.
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