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Old 11-19-2012, 08:37   #21
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1430 FPS from a G19? It likely hits 1500 from a G17. Awesome.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:41   #22
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My Gp100 just threw some handload 158gr bullets an average of 1535 fps for 827 ft-lbs of energy. Compared to the fast 115gr 9mm, it's 40+ grains heavier yet still faster, has considerably better sectional density and will penetrate a lot better as well. The 9mm is a good option, but it's not a .357 Magnum.
You are quite correct, sir. A casual examination of the cartridge cases confirms this.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:20   #23
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And per usual with 9mm bullets pushed beyond their velocity limits, the penetration sucks.
When I was new to firearms (not that long ago) I got caught up in velocity/energy numbers without knowing that it's the total cartridge and bullet design that creates effectiveness.

I feel quite comfortable with 9mm for self-defense and although I am currently carrying a +P round I also would feel good about carrying a standard pressure round like HST or Gold Dot, among others.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:33   #24
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Energy seems to be the real key to stopping power.

A .357 SIG, or .357 Magnum that has only 200 foot pounds of energy would be a dismal stopper.
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Old 11-19-2012, 13:20   #25
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I don't care who it is, or how hard they try - they'll never get the 9x19 cartridge to propel a 158gr SJHP at 1400-1500 FPS. The barrel length won't matter, either.
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Old 11-19-2012, 15:50   #26
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I don't care who it is, or how hard they try - they'll never get the 9x19 cartridge to propel a 158gr SJHP at 1400-1500 FPS. The barrel length won't matter, either.
I'm sure you already know this, but I wish to reiterate. 9mm owners are very defensive about their guns. In their own minds the 9mm round is every bit as good as any other round out there despite proof to the opposite. It's a pride of ownership thing
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Old 11-19-2012, 16:02   #27
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9 inches of penetration doesn't come close to equalling .357. Most likely would have had worse penetration after punching through clothes AND ribs. I personally would choose a 124gr +P Gold Dot over this +P+ load any day. That great expansion does nothing for you if it can't reach vital organs after hitting bone, like after going through an arm before hitting the chest. No thanks.

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Old 11-19-2012, 17:33   #28
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I'm sure you already know this, but I wish to reiterate. 9mm owners are very defensive about their guns. In their own minds the 9mm round is every bit as good as any other round out there despite proof to the opposite. It's a pride of ownership thing
While I agree that some 9mm owners fit your description don't believe most of them do.

My own thinking is that with the advances in bullet technology over the past two decades the effectiveness of 9mm has been greatly enhanced, not that it wasn't dropping felons and enemy combatants for one hundred years prior to that.
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Old 11-19-2012, 18:34   #29
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Yeah, if you believe the vel numbers, there still is that pesky Sectional density thing. The short for caliber 9mm just isn't going to have the same penetration as a 125gr 357 @ the same vel, bullet design being the same. Some are really impressed w/ the energy numbers light & fast have but unless the bullet makes it into the vitals, it doesnt' mean a lot & for handgun, erngy number diff just aren't taht big a deal. So 400# vs 500#, so what?
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Old 11-19-2012, 18:40   #30
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Which one you suppose gonna hold more powder?

Caliber Corner

Damn physics...
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Old 11-19-2012, 18:49   #31
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115 grain +p+ 1450 FPS and 501 ft/lbs!!!! HOLY ****


Underwood 9mm 115 gr +P+ JHP Ammo Test - YouTube
So the theory here is that the only reason 9mm didn't measure up to .357 is we just never realized you could load up 9mm to 1400+ fps, huh?

Gosh, why didn't we ever think of that?

Not a good idea.
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Old 11-19-2012, 18:51   #32
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I'm sure you already know this, but I wish to reiterate. 9mm owners are very defensive about their guns. In their own minds the 9mm round is every bit as good as any other round out there despite proof to the opposite. It's a pride of ownership thing
The they have an awful lot of shootings where numerous hits fail to stop or kill, good guys and bad, that they have to ignore.
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Old 11-19-2012, 19:50   #33
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Which one you suppose gonna hold more powder?

Caliber Corner

Damn physics...
If case capacity is the critical factor why is the 9mm just as effective as the .38 Special? Of course the former is loaded to a much higher pressure. My own opinion is that I'll take a high capacity 9mm over a .38 Special revolver, all things being equal.

Technology is ever-evolving and since the 9mm and .357 Magnum bullet size is almost identical perhaps someday the 9mm can safely be loaded to match the Magnum. My problem with accepting the hyper velocity rounds is the danger of overpressure due to pushing the envelope.

The Magnum has a lot of head start in bullet design from its inception, from what I've learned. In these threads I've wondered why the specialty ammo companies aren't using the 125-grain .357sig bullets in their hyper hot 9mm products. That would make sense to me.

For example, Hornady's 124-grain XTP 9mm bullet has the deep cavity design whereas their 124-grain .357sig is a shallow cup design. For boutique ammo companies pushing the velocity envelope wouldn't it make sense for them to load the Speer 6-petal 125-grain shallow cup .357sig bullet in their 9mm +P+ rounds advertised at 1400 fps?
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Old 11-19-2012, 20:28   #34
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In these threads I've wondered why the specialty ammo companies aren't using the 125-grain .357sig bullets in their hyper hot 9mm products. That would make sense to me.

For example, Hornady's 124-grain XTP 9mm bullet has the deep cavity design whereas their 124-grain .357sig is a shallow cup design. For boutique ammo companies pushing the velocity envelope wouldn't it make sense for them to load the Speer 6-petal 125-grain shallow cup .357sig bullet in their 9mm +P+ rounds advertised at 1400 fps?
I think they will, just need a little more time. I'm not a business man but I would venture to guess that the boutique manufactures need time to process results and feed back, to weigh certain ideas based on demand and other things. What takes a couple of years for us to see might only seem like only the blink of an eye to a manufacturer. I'm not a 9mm fan but if it's prolific nature leads the way for construction improvements...I think it will be worth the wait for all terminal ballistic enthusiasts and defensive shooters among all service caliber variations. Things seem to be moving along quite quickly because of the big names and boutique manufacturer's efforts, IMHO.
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Old 11-19-2012, 20:30   #35
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If case capacity is the critical factor why is the 9mm just as effective as the .38 Special? Of course the former is loaded to a much higher pressure. My own opinion is that I'll take a high capacity 9mm over a .38 Special revolver, all things being equal.

Technology is ever-evolving and since the 9mm and .357 Magnum bullet size is almost identical perhaps someday the 9mm can safely be loaded to match the Magnum. My problem with accepting the hyper velocity rounds is the danger of overpressure due to pushing the envelope.
Manufacturers gotta keep .38 special at pressures that the old guns can handle. It's a question of frame strength. In the 50's Elmer Keith was loading a 173 grain cast boolit in .38 special brass that would make 1,200+ fps from a 3-1/2" model 27. Try putting a 173 grain bullet in a 9mm case and see how much room is left for powder. You were on to something though... if loaded to similar pressures, there is no way the 9mm could keep up. Why? Case volume. It will do the same work at lower pressures, or outperform it with equal pressure.

And what type of technology is going to hit the 9mm that couldn't also be used in the .357 mag?
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Old 11-19-2012, 21:07   #36
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Manufacturers gotta keep .38 special at pressures that the old guns can handle. It's a question of frame strength. In the 50's Elmer Keith was loading a 173 grain cast boolit in .38 special brass that would make 1,200+ fps from a 3-1/2" model 27. Try putting a 173 grain bullet in a 9mm case and see how much room is left for powder. You were on to something though... if loaded to similar pressures, there is no way the 9mm could keep up. Why? Case volume. It will do the same work at lower pressures, or outperform it with equal pressure.
Well that's why I'll take 9mm over a .38 Special revolver; twice the number of rounds with at least the equivalent or better stopping power without any additional weight. I don't know of any semi-auto .38 Special handguns but I was able to shoot a .357 Magnum Desert Eagle at the range once. It was a massive, heavy pistol completely unsuited for my personal uses. So the large case volume --- in my opinion --- has definite drawbacks when it comes to size and weight.

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And what type of technology is going to hit the 9mm that couldn't also be used in the .357 mag?
The 9mm may never equal the real or potential power of .357 Magnum but since the Magnum is already the benchmark standard for handgun effectiveness I think any additional configurations for that caliber would have special applications over and above personal self-defense requirements.
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Old 11-19-2012, 21:17   #37
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And you 9mm gun explodes in the process of firing these hi pressure loads.
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Old 11-19-2012, 21:17   #38
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Does it shoot 158 grainers at 1500fps?
No, because the 9mm will never have a 8 3/8" barrel that Hornaday uses for that 1500fps!
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Old 11-19-2012, 21:20   #39
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No, because the 9mm will never have a 8 3/8" barrel that Hornaday uses for that 1500fps!
Mine does it in a 4".
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Old 11-19-2012, 21:49   #40
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Mine does it in a 4".
Yeah, but you don't have 17+1 capacity.

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