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Old 11-19-2012, 07:48   #176
SevenSixtyTwo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger1079 View Post
That is still a few more months of pay rather than being in the unemployment line now 6 weeks away from Christmas.

So you honestly think it is fair that less than 33% of the employees at Hostess made the decision to take the jobs from the other 67% for them? I am certainly thankful you are not a coworker of mine with the attitude you have.
He'll no I don't think it's fair. I would have gathered the sensable majority and crossed the picket line. When the union become the detriment to my career is when I become non union.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:50   #177
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He'll no I don't think it's fair. I would have gathered the sensable majority and crossed the picket line. When the union become the detriment to my career is when I become non union.
I'm glad we agree on that point at least. The rest though, we will just have to agree to disagree on.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:59   #178
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We are at the point (and have been for years) where moving a Pepsi machine without consulting the Union and giving them their "taste" in a government facility is an unfair labor practice. Yeah....tell me how "useful" unions are.

They are the boll weevil in our economic cotton patch.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:02   #179
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As a business owner here is the way I see it. Any group with no majority ownership in a company should have the right to dictate what pay and or benifits employees a should have. They damn sure have not right to say how much profit a company should make. If you feel that you do have that right then put your money up and start your own business.

Unions were necessary many years ago when conditions were hazardous at the auto plants, steel mills, meat parking plants and garment shops. They are not necessary anymore as conditions have improved.

Anyone remember Eastern Airlines or the Air Traffic controllers?

It amazes me that no one realizes that this just does not affect Hostess. What about the non union employees that were at some of the other plants. these plants closed as well even when these employees were mot striking. What about all the suppliers of goods to Hostess or the truck drivers and delivery men and their employees? There is a huge trickle down effect in play here. What about the economies where these plants are now the employees are not spending money.

Unions need to go away period.


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Old 11-19-2012, 08:06   #180
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Originally Posted by Finestkind View Post
As a business owner here is the way I see it. Any group with no majority ownership in a company should have the right to dictate what pay and or benifits employees a should have. They damn sure have not right to say how much profit a company should make. If you feel that you do have that right then put your money up and start your own business.
Bingo!!!!!!!! Unions make a claim to capital that isn't theirs.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:05   #181
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I say it is not likely that gains made for the good of the working man will remain if Unions went away. I think that is pretty naive.

Big business still pulls the strings. Look at what they did to the Tea Party. They started off with Taxed Enough Already and because of lack of Command and direction they were steered away from the original goal and used as Union busters.

Attacking the middle class working man is not the way to start a grass root movement. They wonder why their movement is dead or dying.

Every one makes cracks at Union People just like we make jokes about Lawyers and other Professions. I have read a lot of generalizations here about Union workers. At some point the fun and jokes go too far.

Some of these comments are from greedy business owners. They live the life of luxury due to the sweat and blood put into their business by their hard working under compensated employees. You can at least thank your employees every day for what they do to make your and your families lives better.

Those non union workers on here that bash us. I sympathizes with you. Maybe one day if you work really hard you can make it into the skilled trades. Becoming known as skilled labor not only could raise your standard of living it also being known as a professional adds to your personal well being.

Hey, not attacking anyone here. I'm making generalizations the same as you.

Some of you business owners treat your employees nice and work in the trenches with them.

Some of the non union guys here are just as good as union guys and some even better.

It sure does not feel good having some stranger shove you into a boxes that you do not fit in.

This Bakery deal, I do not know what went on behind closed. But they shut down a operation like this over a contract dispute. Really!! What do these suit and tie people know that we do not know that caused them to cash out and move on. I suspect the contract dispute was not the only thing.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:35   #182
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What's crazy is that you say this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpig View Post
I have read a lot of generalizations here about Union workers.
Then you say this:

Quote:
Some of these comments are from greedy business owners. They live the life of luxury due to the sweat and blood put into their business by their hard working under compensated employees.
Yes, "greedy business owners" "live the life of luxury" due only to the sweat of their peons.

That's such bull**** it's almost painful for me to read.

Business owners generally work harder than anyone else in their business, and more importantly, they're the ones holding the bag when their business folds.

The ones that do live the life of luxury generally earned it through years of hard work. And even the ones that don't provide something (generally money) that a business needs in order to operate.

I'm not a business owner, and I've never been one. I have had P&L responsibility for a small business before. When I got promoted to general manager (I worked at a small car dealership) my hours doubled. I stopped sleeping. I was constantly worried about what my employees were doing in company cars, about cars being stolen or wrecked, about car deals going sideways because some idiot had done something shady.

Quote:
You can at least thank your employees every day for what they do to make your and your families lives better.
Employees get their thanks every other Friday.

I'm an employee now, for a fantastic organization, and they treat me very well. I do my work and I get a paycheck. I don't expect anything more. Why would I?

Quote:
Maybe one day if you work really hard you can make it into the skilled trades. Becoming known as skilled labor not only could raise your standard of living it also being known as a professional adds to your personal well being.
I've never belonged to a union in my life, and I'd bet money I make several times your income.

Quote:
This Bakery deal, I do not know what went on behind closed. But they shut down a operation like this over a contract dispute. Really!!
Nope. They shut down because they literally ran out of cash to keep the lights on.

Quote:
What do these suit and tie people know that we do not know that caused them to cash out and move on.
Your class anger is showing again. "Suit and tie people" are people too, just like you. There are good and bad folks who go to work in a suit. They make more money than you because they're more valuable than you. The market has decided this to be so.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:47   #183
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You spent way too much time focused on generalizations. You missed the whole point.

As a business owner I work day, night, week ends and Holiday. I do not even take a pay check. I hope to get my pay at the end.

Every one else makes money off of me right now.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:49   #184
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
What's crazy is that you say this:



Then you say this:



Yes, "greedy business owners" "live the life of luxury" due only to the sweat of their peons.

That's such bull**** it's almost painful for me to read.

Business owners generally work harder than anyone else in their business, and more importantly, they're the ones holding the bag when their business folds.

The ones that do live the life of luxury generally earned it through years of hard work. And even the ones that don't provide something (generally money) that a business needs in order to operate.

I'm not a business owner, and I've never been one. I have had P&L responsibility for a small business before. When I got promoted to general manager (I worked at a small car dealership) my hours doubled. I stopped sleeping. I was constantly worried about what my employees were doing in company cars, about cars being stolen or wrecked, about car deals going sideways because some idiot had done something shady.



Employees get their thanks every other Friday.

I'm an employee now, for a fantastic organization, and they treat me very well. I do my work and I get a paycheck. I don't expect anything more. Why would I?



I've never belonged to a union in my life, and I'd bet money I make several times your income.



Nope. They shut down because they literally ran out of cash to keep the lights on.



Your class anger is showing again. "Suit and tie people" are people too, just like you. There are good and bad folks who go to work in a suit. They make more money than you because they're more valuable than you. The market has decided this to be so.

Ding, Ding, Ding! We have a winner..
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:52   #185
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I say it is not likely that gains made for the good of the working man will remain if Unions went away. I think that is pretty naive.
What facts are you basing this assumption on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpig View Post
Big business still pulls the strings. Look at what they did to the Tea Party. They started off with Taxed Enough Already and because of lack of Command and direction they were steered away from the original goal and used as Union busters.

Attacking the middle class working man is not the way to start a grass root movement. They wonder why their movement is dead or dying.
Another generalization that business are all out to screw their employees. This notion is ridiculous considering a company relies on its employees for its success.

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Originally Posted by hotpig View Post
Every one makes cracks at Union People just like we make jokes about Lawyers and other Professions. I have read a lot of generalizations here about Union workers. At some point the fun and jokes go too far.
These generalizations are made because the vast majority make these generalizations matters of fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpig View Post
Some of these comments are from greedy business owners. They live the life of luxury due to the sweat and blood put into their business by their hard working under compensated employees. You can at least thank your employees every day for what they do to make your and your families lives better.
Let me be the first to tell you, not all business owners live the "life of luxury". Many business owners can barely make the bills every month and struggle to save anything. Of course there are people that are rolling in the dough, but these companies are in the minority when compared to smaller businesses that just manage to get by. Again, businesses cannot succeed without their employees. Do you honestly think business owners don't know that? By the way, I DON'T own a business.

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Originally Posted by hotpig View Post
Those non union workers on here that bash us. I sympathizes with you. Maybe one day if you work really hard you can make it into the skilled trades. Becoming known as skilled labor not only could raise your standard of living it also being known as a professional adds to your personal well being.
So because I am not in a "skilled labor" trade I am not a professional and my quality of living and well being suffers?

I am a salaried network administrator working in a large facility managing the infrastructure for over 250 workstations, a VOIP phone system, 25+ enterprise level switches interconnected using both copper and fiber, as well as 47 servers using just about every type of software and hardware configuration imaginable. I busted my hump in school to get my degree and my certifications. I invite you to try to do what I do and tell me my job is any less professional than yours because I am happily an at will employee that wants no part of any union. Most weeks I work about 45 hours. Some weeks I work up to 70 for the same exact payrate if the need is there.

I am compensated well and appreciate what my employer does for me and I didn't need some outside organization to tell me what I can and can't do and to tell my emploer what benefits and salary I should receive. I negotiated my own payrate and benefits based on my proven value to my company. You union guys should give it a try some time. You might actually like doing things for yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpig View Post
Hey, not attacking anyone here. I'm making generalizations the same as you.

Some of you business owners treat your employees nice and work in the trenches with them.

Some of the non union guys here are just as good as union guys and some even better.

It sure does not feel good having some stranger shove you into a boxes that you do not fit in.
Now after the condescending comment, you follow up with this statement that contradicts what you just said. Make up your mind what you believe.[/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpig View Post
This Bakery deal, I do not know what went on behind closed. But they shut down a operation like this over a contract dispute. Really!! What do these suit and tie people know that we do not know that caused them to cash out and move on. I suspect the contract dispute was not the only thing.
You are probably right, but I'm sure everyone can agree that non cooperative employees hindering the companies ability to generate revenue definitely didn't help.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:57   #186
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You spent way too much time focused on generalizations. You missed the whole point.

As a business owner I work day, night, week ends and Holiday. I do not even take a pay check. I hope to get my pay at the end.

Every one else makes money off of me right now.
Wait......

So you are a BUSINESS OWNER that is a union employee?
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:00   #187
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Why is it that in Germany union autoworkers make more, have a better retirement and get along with management better--all while able to export cars all over the world.

#1: better management whom place longer term fundamentals over next quarters profit cash out. Basically, less greedy management that makes a fraction of their US counterparts.

Why is is that in states like California and New Jersey, due to teacher/police/fire/state workers unions have bleed the states finances?

#1: political process aided by workers whom are so greedy they sell out the future of those whom have the same job in the future.

My point is there is no 100% unions are bad and good thinking that covers the marketplace. Some industries, like mining, where union workers die due to companies lack of regards for their safety are countered by the unions that have little function other than to extort more
money now at the expense of the future.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:01   #188
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Originally Posted by Roger1079 View Post
Wait......

So you are a BUSINESS OWNER that is a union employee?

He must be a business owner that is living the luxurious lifestyle off the backs of his workers..
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:02   #189
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Except now they get 99 months of unemployment benefits so there is no incentive to look for another job for 2 years.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
They wont, Free money for them. After it runs out,There done.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:05   #190
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Why is it that in Germany union autoworkers make more, have a better retirement and get along with management better--all while able to export cars all over the world.

#1: better management whom place longer term fundamentals over next quarters profit cash out. Basically, less greedy management that makes a fraction of their US counterparts.

Why is is that in states like California and New Jersey, due to teacher/police/fire/state workers unions have bleed the states finances?

#1: political process aided by workers whom are so greedy they sell out the future of those whom have the same job in the future.

My point is there is no 100% unions are bad and good thinking that covers the marketplace. Some industries, like mining, where union workers die due to companies lack of regards for their safety are countered by the unions that have little function other than to extort more
money now at the expense of the future.
Wait, what?
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:13   #191
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When you guys are cracking on Union people it was real funny. I make cracks on non union and you guys get all whiney baby on me. You guys are worse than my Union guys who whine some times when they get corrected.

Like I said before it sux when some one puts you in a box that you do not belong in doesn't it.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:16   #192
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It's a very simple "protection " scam. The union makes money from employees that join by will or coercion. They only join unions because they believe;

1) I cannot effectively represent my own interests on my own;
2) the union will protect me if I pay them.

Therefore, most of them see inefficiencies, idiocy, and occasionally outright criminal behavior they condone or keep silent about on a daily basis because they cannot survive without their protector. So what incentive do unions have to reasonably and responsibly work with management? Absolutely none. The instant the workers realize they are being duped, the house of cards falls.
OMG!!!!

This is the dumbest thing that I've read on GT since someone "claimed" Romney would win the election.

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Old 11-19-2012, 11:21   #193
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A union is a group of people getting together for a common cause. Everyone belongs to a union of some type, HOA, VFW, NRA, political parties, 4 wheel drive clubs, farm bureau, just name it and there is a group pushing their agenda.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:24   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger1079 View Post
Wait......

So you are a BUSINESS OWNER that is a union employee?
Sure, every one has two or more jobs these days. I have three, nobody wants to work any more.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:29   #195
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Why is it that in Germany union autoworkers make more, have a better retirement and get along with management better--all while able to export cars all over the world.

#1: better management whom place longer term fundamentals over next quarters profit cash out. Basically, less greedy management that makes a fraction of their US counterparts.

Why is is that in states like California and New Jersey, due to teacher/police/fire/state workers unions have bleed the states finances?

#1: political process aided by workers whom are so greedy they sell out the future of those whom have the same job in the future.

My point is there is no 100% unions are bad and good thinking that covers the marketplace. Some industries, like mining, where union workers die due to companies lack of regards for their safety are countered by the unions that have little function other than to extort more
money now at the expense of the future.


You makes some really good points.

An example of a really smart union that looks towards the present and the future is the Southwest Airlines Pilots Union. Frankly, that's the only one that comes to mind.

The Eastern Airlines pilot's union literally killed that company. The union representing AA pilots right now has been trying to kill AA.

I think German vs. American autoworker pay is a complex subject. The Germans build way more higher end expensive cars on balance that Americans. Secondly, when's the last time German autoworkers went on strike? Basically they don't go on strike.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:31   #196
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A union is a group of people getting together for a common cause. Everyone belongs to a union of some type, HOA, VFW, NRA, political parties, 4 wheel drive clubs, farm bureau, just name it and there is a group pushing their agenda.
This is a irrational emotional argument. Do not come in here clouding the issue with facts.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:42   #197
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Teamsters knew from their press release a few days before the Hostess strike deadline that Hostess was not bluffing, as the Teamsters had seen the company books. Bakers union didn't see it that way. Why didn't teamsters basically advise its workers, to whom it owes a duty, to go back to work and cross a picket line created by a less sophisticated and less informed union?

I mean, I have always presumed union members to be lazy and without a grasp of how to stand on individual merit. I did not know they apparently were stupid.
All of the Teamsters' employees, like the bakers' union employees, still have a job. Only the Hostess employees are unemployed.

As for the union memebrs, I have read enough of their comments here to know they are stupid, in addition to greedy and lazy. That is what the union is fundamentally about - a device for getting more pay for the same work a non-union employee would do for less, or doing less work for the same money. Otherwise, the employees wou;ld be paid in accordance with the employer's need for them and there wouyld be no need for a union. They ONLY exist to get employees pay and benefits in excess of the market rate.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:43   #198
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A union is a group of people getting together for a common cause. Everyone belongs to a union of some type, HOA, VFW, NRA, political parties, 4 wheel drive clubs, farm bureau, just name it and there is a group pushing their agenda.
How many of those exist to use force and crime to get an economic benefit for their members? The union is more aptly comparable to the mafia or a gang.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:57   #199
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Quote from HotPig
"Some of these comments are from greedy business owners. They live the life of luxury due to the sweat and blood put into their business by their hard working under compensated employees. You can at least thank your employees every day for what they do to make your and your families lives better."

First of all let me say I do understand that you are not addersing this to me but in general. First Off I do not live the life of luxury off of the backs of our employees. To lump all business owners is this catagory is just asinine. Second I am the one who has my house and my entire life savings on the line for this business. Do you? Third If you feel you are undercompensated you probably are not happy in you job Talk to you boss or go find another one. You do not have to stay.

Quote
"Maybe one day if you work really hard you can make it into the skilled trades. Becoming known as skilled labor not only could raise your standard of living it also being known as a professional adds to your personal well being."

Well sounds a little pompus to me. Just because you are a union employee does not mean that you work any harder or are any better than anyone else. Being a union employee also does not make you any more professional.

Again just because you are in a union that does not give you the right to say how much the owners and investors make. In most cases unions make prices go up due to the increased labor costs. Think about it when a union forces a company to increase pay where do they get the increase from. The price of the item being sold goes up to cover the increase in cost. As consumers we pay the price.

It's time for the unions to go. I think you would be surprised to see that conditions would not change.

Finestkind

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Old 11-19-2012, 12:46   #200
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Quote:
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How many of those exist to use force and crime to get an economic benefit for their members? The union is more aptly comparable to the mafia or a gang.
I pay my Union dues pretty much for the same reason that I pay my NRA dues. It pays for some one to represent me.

Representation at the work place pales to representation that I need at the State or National level.

As for your last line the history of labor was pretty shady on all sides. It still is, there is a lot of money involved.

I know big business is paying us more than two bits per hour because they were forced to. Not because they decided to be nice.

You may believe in the absence of Unions than big business would continue being nice to us. I think they would bust their butts to change laws to benefit them.

Unions are imperfect, they also need to be kept in check from time to time.

I'm President of my local. I had a member Grieve with me this Summer. He did not like my findings so he went over my head to the International.

The International called me and I told them this is a local issue and I did not need their assistance. It is not their job to run this shop.

That was the last I heard from them. Some times you have to have balls.
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