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Old 11-18-2012, 17:43   #151
AWoods
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A few years back, my employer was handling logistics for Ford. I was doing account rep stuff.

Ford calls me with a line down situation losing money every minute, and asks me to pls expedite something. I call the supervisor at the warehouse in Detroit, and tell him the situation, and ask him to personally hand off the part to the courier. No can do. He's not allowed to cross a line of paint in the warehouse.

The union guys take a week to process it.
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Old 11-18-2012, 17:53   #152
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A few years back, my employer was handling logistics for Ford. I was doing account rep stuff.

Ford calls me with a line down situation losing money every minute, and asks me to pls expedite something. I call the supervisor at the warehouse in Detroit, and tell him the situation, and ask him to personally hand off the part to the courier. No can do. He's not allowed to cross a line of paint in the warehouse.

The union guys take a week to process it.
Supervisor should have been fired on the spot. Manager should have walked the part to the courier. If a union member had a problem with it, let him file a grievance and lose. My supervisor has helped me with simple details many times over the years if I was too busy on something else. Once again, I'd like to see the contract that restricts where a supervisor can be and that he can't hand a part to a courier. Either this is more fabrication or local management has absolutely no 00's at all. None. Zero. I'm thinking fabrication.
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Old 11-18-2012, 17:58   #153
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JC Penny located it's headquarters in Plano Texas where labor is cheap and some of them even speak English. Who put the blinders on Hostess management? If you're dumb enough to build a house in a flood zone, don't blame the water.
You can paint it any color you want, at the end of the day, Hostess told the Union to go back to work or we will be forced to close. Hostess is now Closed.

Had they gone back to work, Hostess would still be in business, 18k people wouldn't be out of work.
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Old 11-18-2012, 18:06   #154
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
Nope.

The incoming CEO, who got bumped up from CRO in March, cut the executive team salary to $1. He never got millions.

The outgoing CEO had a $1.5M total comp package. The details haven't been published, but I'm guessing most of it was stock options, and since they're liquidating the company most of it is worthless.



That's utterly retarded. This kind of classist crap is why people laugh at unions.

People who operate Twinkie making machines simply aren't as valuable as management talent. They're not as valuable as accountants, or engineers, or any of the hundreds of other people in the company who make more money than the "lowest paid worker."

No one's salary should be tied to anyone else's. Salary is tied to the value that a person creates, and nothing more.



The CEO has been with the company less than a year. How is any of this his fault?

When you have a company that's got almost 3 billion in sales yet can't turn a profit, do you go out and look for a CEO who's willing to work for $12/hr, or do you find an expensive guy with talent?
If I have a major stake in a failing multibillion dollar enterprise I want the best management talent I can get my hands on. That comes at a price. That guy has options.

And you know what? The idiot union bakers want him too but they aren't smart enough to figure it out.

You can get anyone to run the ding dong machine
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Old 11-18-2012, 18:08   #155
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Supervisor should have been fired on the spot. Manager should have walked the part to the courier. If a union member had a problem with it, let him file a grievance and lose. My supervisor has helped me with simple details many times over the years if I was too busy on something else. Once again, I'd like to see the contract that restricts where a supervisor can be and that he can't hand a part to a courier. Either this is more fabrication or local management has absolutely no 00's at all. None. Zero. I'm thinking fabrication.
Well, it was Detroit, so who knows.
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Old 11-18-2012, 18:22   #156
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You can paint it any color you want, at the end of the day, Hostess told the Union to go back to work or we will be forced to close. Hostess is now Closed.

Had they gone back to work, Hostess would still be in business, 18k people wouldn't be out of work.
Had they located their production facilities in a less hostile work environment, they would still be in business for the few who still buy their gak and 18k poverty level wage earners would still be baking their twinkies for a few more months until they fizzle out on schedule. As it is, Twinkies will soon be pooped out in Mexico for the few loyal snaggletoothed Twinkie affectionados who still want them.
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Old 11-18-2012, 18:27   #157
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Yep, just like if the union went back to work instead of putting 13k+ other people out of work because of their greed.
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Old 11-18-2012, 18:29   #158
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I too live in the LA area of Kalifornia. Generally, when a shop goes Union, the wages go up. Would you really quit if this happened?

I Googled union wages for LA & I make 15-20% more than the max listed so I don't see my wages going up in that case, also I can't imagine our shop going union (small shop, no one is pro union).
I also know 5 places off the top of my head that would hire me tomorrow if I called them so I don't worry about finding a new job.
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Old 11-18-2012, 18:33   #159
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In a big (even unionized) company there are all kinds. I'm betting there were probably some good folks in your shop as well.

When I was a youngster long ago, Hostess was the only game in town. Now there are many more brands competing in the game. It could be argued that Hostess was the best, but it certainly cost the most. A Hostess Cherry pie for $1.75 vs the (can't remember the name) cherry pies @3 for $1?
Your right, there was a few decent people. Those are the ones that I would hang out with after work. They are the only ones that I would even consider going shooting or hunting with.

At the last place that I worked, I was hit by a forklift and ejected off a tractor trailer because of the type of people that I mention in my post. I have scares and pain still from these people. Both times, neither of these people had to go for a drug test. I have no love for them.
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Old 11-18-2012, 18:40   #160
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Yep, just like if the union went back to work instead of putting 13k+ other people out of work because of their greed.
You're absolutely right. They could have prolonged the inevitable for a few more months I suppose. The brains at the top needed to come up with a gimmick to boost sales union or not. They failed miserably. I don't even remember the last time I heard someone say "Hey let's stop at the store for a Twinkie". They've been outdone by so many other options at the gas station convenience store.
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Old 11-18-2012, 18:44   #161
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Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

Seems like instead of dreaming up other reasons, you could just save face and say, "the union is the reason 18k people are jobless this holiday season".

But carry on
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Old 11-18-2012, 18:47   #162
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i would guess that the more the workers get paid the more the teamsters are paid soooooooooo......id guess they were just greedy
Not greedy - pure lunacy. The union KNEW Hosress would go belly up yet they continued anyway. How do UNEMPLOYED WORKERS get paid more? Did the union expect to take their pensions and run? THAT would be the ONLY way they would get ANY money.
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Old 11-18-2012, 19:10   #163
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It is only a problem if you are paying an employee over their value. If my employer said he was cutting my pay 10% I would just go to other companies in the field because I can. Other people that can would to. You would only be left with the ones that can't because there is limited market for their skills. If there is limited market for their skills well then that means something.

Exactly. No different than someone claiming their house is worth $300k when the best offer is $150k. Guess what? It's worth $150k. Unions only benefit the least valuable employees. The rest don't need them and in fact are hurt by them


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Old 11-18-2012, 19:29   #164
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It's a very simple "protection " scam. The union makes money from employees that join by will or coercion. They only join unions because they believe;

1) I cannot effectively represent my own interests on my own;
2) the union will protect me if I pay them.

Therefore, most of them see inefficiencies, idiocy, and occasionally outright criminal behavior they condone or keep silent about on a daily basis because they cannot survive without their protector. So what incentive do unions have to reasonably and responsibly work with management? Absolutely none. The instant the workers realize they are being duped, the house of cards falls.
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Old 11-18-2012, 19:33   #165
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Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

Seems like instead of dreaming up other reasons, you could just save face and say, "the union is the reason 18k people are jobless this holiday season".

But carry on
So, in your world, the way it works is "You'll take whatever corporate decides to offer - including stripping your pay and benefits however they see fit - and you'll like it, otherwise you're simply greedy and ungrateful and you get what you deserve"?
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Old 11-18-2012, 19:49   #166
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So, in your world, the way it works is "You'll take whatever corporate decides to offer - including stripping your pay and benefits however they see fit - and you'll like it, otherwise you're simply greedy and ungrateful and you get what you deserve"?
Yes, unless you have a better option. Apparently these union morons thought unemployment was better than the cuts in comp.

No one is a slave or indentured to their employer. Employer makes an offer. You weigh your options and make a choice.

Even worse, these 5,000 union idiots took the other 13,000 down with them.

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Old 11-18-2012, 20:07   #167
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So, in your world, the way it works is "You'll take whatever corporate decides to offer - including stripping your pay and benefits however they see fit - and you'll like it, otherwise you're simply greedy and ungrateful and you get what you deserve"?
I've always negotiated my pay. There are limits that the market will bear but I consistently put myself at the upper edge of that curve. I delivered skill sets and performance to match.
As such, I've only had companies either offer me more to join them or offer me more to stay.


Unions multiply the magnitude of this negotiation but the principle is basically the same, isn't it?
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Old 11-18-2012, 20:13   #168
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So, in your world, the way it works is "You'll take whatever corporate decides to offer - including stripping your pay and benefits however they see fit - and you'll like it, otherwise you're simply greedy and ungrateful and you get what you deserve"?
No, in the real world, that's basically how it works.
You get paid equal to the relative value to give your employer.
If you don't like the terms, you move on to another job.


In this case, something like 1/3 of the workers decided no job was better than the job they had.

My guess is there are plenty of people that would have been happy to work for what was being offered if there was no union in the way.
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Old 11-18-2012, 20:36   #169
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I have not eaten a Twinkie in twenty years and couldn't care less about Hostess's survival.

But frankly, the union screwed itsself.
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Old 11-18-2012, 23:49   #170
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These three kids are sitting around talking, and the first kid says, "My dad is so fast, he can shoot an arrow down range and run down there to see where it lands".

The second little kid says, "That's nothing, my dad is so fast that when he goes to sleep at night and turns off the lights, he can be in bed before the room gets dark".

The third little kid says, "I got all you guys beat. My dad is in the Teamsters. He's so fast that when he gets off of work at 4:30, he's home by 2:15".


Brought to you by the non union workers of America. Unlike union members, I work for a living.
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:12   #171
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Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

Seems like instead of dreaming up other reasons, you could just save face and say, "the union is the reason 18k people are jobless this holiday season".

But carry on
You are right but, is the CEO's concern for the 18k employees that walked out of a job or for the survival of the company? Do you buy a house in a hostile neighborhood when there are better neighborhoods in the area and then blame the criminals for your poor choice of location? Yes they are responsible for their immediate termination. Management is responsible for choosing the location of production.
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:42   #172
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What I heard on FNC business segments this morning was that the bakers union had some pretty ridiculous things in their contract that they would not let go of to save $, such as twinkies and wonder bread not being able to be delivered in the same truck, or the truck driver could not unload/stock the shelves, that was for another union employee to handle...
THAT is the kind of stuff that really causes problems for union companies. Quite often non-union jobs in the same industry offer competitive wages. Toyota in Tennessee pays as much as most union shops.

Their advantage is if they want to make a process improvement that reduces labor in one area (and them move that worker somewhere else) they can do it. Some unions will block this.

That said I will acknowledge that not all unions are the same.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:25   #173
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Supervisor should have been fired on the spot. Manager should have walked the part to the courier. If a union member had a problem with it, let him file a grievance and lose. My supervisor has helped me with simple details many times over the years if I was too busy on something else. Once again, I'd like to see the contract that restricts where a supervisor can be and that he can't hand a part to a courier. Either this is more fabrication or local management has absolutely no 00's at all. None. Zero. I'm thinking fabrication.
I don't doubt it at all. That supervisor would have been doing someone elses work at that point. Unions frown upon that because the company may realize just how much said employee is unneeded, but because it makes unions in general look bad, your only defense is that it has to be a fabrication.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:31   #174
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You're absolutely right. They could have prolonged the inevitable for a few more months I suppose. The brains at the top needed to come up with a gimmick to boost sales union or not. They failed miserably. I don't even remember the last time I heard someone say "Hey let's stop at the store for a Twinkie". They've been outdone by so many other options at the gas station convenience store.
That is still a few more months of pay rather than being in the unemployment line now 6 weeks away from Christmas.

So you honestly think it is fair that less than 33% of the employees at Hostess made the decision to take the jobs from the other 67% for them? I am certainly thankful you are not a coworker of mine with the attitude you have.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:43   #175
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THAT is the kind of stuff that really causes problems for union companies. Quite often non-union jobs in the same industry offer competitive wages. Toyota in Tennessee pays as much as most union shops.

Their advantage is if they want to make a process improvement that reduces labor in one area (and them move that worker somewhere else) they can do it. Some unions will block this.

That said I will acknowledge that not all unions are the same.
This I agree with 100%. I've done my job as technician, helped with construction, done sales, filled in for my supervisor and helped him move a piano years ago to his house on company time. We don't have crafts that we're assigned or limited to. We have lunch with management and no friction. If our union told I couldn't do a job other than my normal routine, I'd be working on changing that. I want my small part of the company to grow and succeed as much as anyone.
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