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Old 11-18-2012, 11:46   #101
DanaT
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
You, sir, are absolutely correct. My apologies. Baking well is an art form that requires years to perfect. Allow me to rephrase:

How much should a factory worker who puts ingredients in an industrial cake making machine and pushes the button to turn it on make? To the best of my understanding, it's not a job that requires a lot of skills.

(Also, I'd kill to find a good French croissant in the US. Every one I've ever found was too big and tasted like greasy air.)
Now I am happy. You cant call those people "bakers".

YEs, good French croissants are awesome. They are just different.

I would say they are worth about $10-12 an hour.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:52   #102
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Well, that sure seems like an unbiased bit of information.
Agreed

How many Union managers lost their jobs?
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:03   #103
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I have only worked in a union shop once. This was in Georgia and I had no choice except to join the CWA (Communications Workers of American) as it was a closed shop. You work there, you are union.

When the company I worked for began bouncing paychecks, making us use our own tools, forcing us to drive POVs to worksites, no workman comp insurance, no health insurance, keeping the money taken out for taxes, child support etc, threatening employees who questioned these things, our wonderful CWA Union guy was the first to jump up, shake a fist, and do NOTHING else. The Union was absolutely useless. Completely totally ineffective. The company owner told him to his face..." I am NOT going to abide by the contract signed".

LMAO at the "power" of the Union. CWA...F'em

Note..this is the same union that represented Bell South in the city. Obviously there was enough money in BSouth for the union whores to adequately represent. Our little company of 30 employees got nothing but bullcrap and lip service for over a year once the trouble started. In the end they proved to have no power, no authority, no way of enforcing a contract. Useless waste of money.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:07   #104
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One of the biggest problems with unions is the work rule BS.

I got a job as a cost accountant for a union company while I was in college - I was considered part time & temp -was not part of any union. I learned nothing about accounting at this job but a lot about unions. Mostly that they suck.

I had been on the job a few days - I was stuck in a back office with a bunch of random office furniture. It was a mess.

I decided to reorganize my work space - I moved some of the furniture around - putting my desk in a better place - and also moved a FLOOR LAMP that was in the corner over to give me a little better lighting.

Some guy walks by my office and then comes back and asks - Did I move the furniture around by myself? I said yes - it was not very heavy - he then ask about the LAMP.

I said sure - it wasn't doing me any good over in the corner.

He looked sort of mad- I had no idea why - it was strange - he left -

A few minutes later I hear someone yelling and arguing - and the next thing I know my boss & his boss and some supervisor in maintenance come in to my office and ask me about the furniture and light.

I had no freaking idea that I had broken several of the companies union rules.

I was not to be moving furniture unless it was on wheels - I could move my chair - but not the desk or book shelves.

But the BIGGEST problem was moving the lamp.
It was considered a violation that involved safety. I had performed electrical work and I was not certified to do so -
I was not a union electrician (found out latter the guy that stopped in before was).

I was chewed out pretty hard - and told to never do anything like that again or I would be fired.

Now I could understand if I had spliced into a breaker box or was rewiring something - but I unplugged a lamp - moved it over 5 feet and plugged it into another outlet.


It is stupid stuff like this that gives unions a bad name.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:10   #105
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One of the biggest problems with unions is the work rule BS.

I got a job as a cost accountant for a union company while I was in college - I was considered part time & temp -was not part of any union. I learned nothing about accounting at this job but a lot about unions. Mostly that they suck.

I had been on the job a few days - I was stuck in a back office with a bunch of random office furniture. It was a mess.

I decided to reorganize my work space - I moved some of the furniture around - putting my desk in a better place - and also moved a FLOOR LAMP that was in the corner over to give me a little better lighting.

Some guy walks by my office and then comes back and asks - Did I move the furniture around by myself? I said yes - it was not very heavy - he then ask about the LAMP.

I said sure - it wasn't doing me any good over in the corner.

He looked sort of mad- I had no idea why - it was strange - he left -

A few minutes later I hear someone yelling and arguing - and the next thing I know my boss & his boss and some supervisor in maintenance come in to my office and ask me about the furniture and light.

I had no freaking idea that I had broken several of the companies union rules.

I was not to be moving furniture unless it was on wheels - I could move my chair - but not the desk or book shelves.

But the BIGGEST problem was moving the lamp.
It was considered a violation that involved safety. I had performed electrical work and I was not certified to do so -
I was not a union electrician (found out latter the guy that stopped in before was).

I was chewed out pretty hard - and told to never do anything like that again or I would be fired.

Now I could understand if I had spliced into a breaker box or was rewiring something - but I unplugged a lamp - moved it over 5 feet and plugged it into another outlet.


It is stupid stuff like this that gives unions a bad name.
Never happened. Pure fabrication. If it did, link to any union contract that states an office geek can't move a lamp.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:33   #106
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Never happened. Pure fabrication. If it did, link to any union contract that states an office geek can't move a lamp.


Maybe they were just busting up the new guy - I was 19/20 and sort of green - it sure as heck seemed real to me - and no one ever said - WE SURE GOT YOU ON THAT ONE!


The company was Division of Walter Kidde & Company ~~1978.

This company was dysfunctional - the hostility between management & union was horrible.

They ended up closing the place after several strikes.

IIRC I was not allowed to change light bulbs either.

Last edited by Z71bill; 11-18-2012 at 12:41..
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Old 11-18-2012, 13:09   #107
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What was the deal offered by Hostess? Do you know what the union was being asked to give up? What's the magic number for you, if your boss tells you you're getting a 5% cut, 7%, 8, 10? What would be acceptable to you?
I suppose it depends on what my options are.

If my skill set is dumping flour and sugar into a vat and pressing the start button I might take the cut
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Old 11-18-2012, 13:22   #108
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Unions are Worthless! God i hope Ohio becomes a right to work state soon!
Wrong on the first account but I totally agree with your second sentiment. Florida is a right to work state. We have a great relationship with our company.
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Old 11-18-2012, 13:27   #109
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Maybe they were just busting up the new guy - I was 19/20 and sort of green - it sure as heck seemed real to me - and no one ever said - WE SURE GOT YOU ON THAT ONE!


The company was Division of Walter Kidde & Company ~~1978.

This company was dysfunctional - the hostility between management & union was horrible.

They ended up closing the place after several strikes.

IIRC I was not allowed to change light bulbs either.
I have to believe they were just busting on the new guy. I've been union for 32 years. Never seen a strike or grievance. If they were for real, sounds like a good place to run from.
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Old 11-18-2012, 13:33   #110
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so the guys that work for hostess are now jobless and the guys that refused the offers by hostess still have jobs and prob make something into the 6 figures..


im sorry but those guys screwed up...they got greedy and wanted it all and now they got nothing.....i mean werent these guys makeing like $30+ a hour???? they deserved to lose thier jobs if you cant live off of that.. i only make $14 a hour and i own a house and a nice car and have never wanted for anything...well that one chic at olive garden but im working on that.

Wow, dude. Even by today's standards, $14/hr is very low. I hope you're getting health care & other bennies. If you have a family of 4, you're $5k over the poverty level. Sorry if this seems cruel to say. Have you used your resources to get retrained or to further your education? This economy isn't going to get better anytime soon. I hope you're very young & working on improvement. Best of luck.

Last edited by 10-S; 11-18-2012 at 13:38..
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Old 11-18-2012, 13:48   #111
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Wow, dude. Even by today's standards, $14/hr is very low. I hope you're getting health care & other bennies. If you have a family of 4, you're $5k over the poverty level. Sorry if this seems cruel to say. Have you used your resources to get retrained or to further your education? This economy isn't going to get better anytime soon. I hope you're very young & working on improvement. Best of luck.
Depending on what he does for a living... New hires earning union wages at Chrysler aren't making much more.

http://www.uaw.org/content/gains-new-hires
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Old 11-18-2012, 13:54   #112
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
You, sir, are absolutely correct. My apologies. Baking well is an art form that requires years to perfect. Allow me to rephrase:

How much should a factory worker who puts ingredients in an industrial cake making machine and pushes the button to turn it on make? To the best of my understanding, it's not a job that requires a lot of skills.

(Also, I'd kill to find a good French croissant in the US. Every one I've ever found was too big and tasted like greasy air.)
The best way to calculate that is to determine how many units of product the position processes per hour (average), multiplied times the value of the finished unit at cost, multiplied again times the percentage of the manufacturing process that the position accounts for. This is the value per hour for the position, so the pay rate must be below this figure after all employment related expenses are added in or the employee is overpaid and the company loses money.
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Old 11-18-2012, 13:58   #113
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Unions are necessary and serve a vital role for those who's skill and value doesn't speak for itself.
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Old 11-18-2012, 14:02   #114
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No, they're not.

The $110M line item in 2004, for instance--it COULDN'T be reinvested into the business. It had to be used to pay outstanding debts. That's why they went into bankruptcy in the first place. And "reinvesting" isn't a simple thing. The snack food cakes market isn't growing.

The 2009 item--yes, Hostess brands is now owned by a collection of hedge funds and private equity firms. What that means is, those funds injected hundreds of millions of dollars of investors' cash into the company--money that they'll never see again.

The 2011 item is odd, because it doesn't support the union side. The company was still losing money, labor costs are a huge portion of their cost structure, and the union refuses to make further concessions. What did they think was going to happen?



Yep. No one disputes that. The unions have agreed to cuts in the past few years. That is a fact.



This is bull****.

The management team which was brought aboard attempted to bring the company's cost structure in line with their revenues. They simply couldn't afford to keep paying the wages they were paying, and there was no identifiable opportunity to grow the business. Their market is shrinking. The union refuses to see the fact that there simply is no money.

Changing the labor cost structure is the only lever management could pull, and the union wouldn't let them. That's the bottom line.
I asked my guys if they were all willing to give up $1/hr because the economy sucks. They all said "NO!" I told them I would never ask them to, and that I expected a "no" answer, but if they want to keep their jobs they all need to stay conscious of how fast they work, their quality, and not making mistakes.
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Old 11-18-2012, 14:06   #115
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What would really be great would be for employers in localities to band together and fix wages and employment terms for various employee classes.

Like a union for businesses.
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Old 11-18-2012, 14:08   #116
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The primary reason the company went under is it has a BILLION dollars in debt, most of which was acquired by management buying up other businesses. The company has excellent sales and profit margins, but a staggering debt load.

In the past decade, the company has shed almost half it's workforce, going from 35,000 to 18,000 people. There have been significant concessions by the three unions that work there.

The current pay structure is $22,500 to $28,500 for a baker. The insurance is about $250/month for crappy health insurance with a $1500 deductible and large co-pays.

While demanding an 8% pay cut and an eventual 30% give-back on benefits, the CEO pay went from $750k to $2.5 million. Hardly the kind of thing to inspire solidarity in "shared sacrifice" with your workforce.)

Twinkees will be back, probably made by non-union illegal immigrants, (who get their benefits paid for by Uncle Sugar) on the very same machines the "high-paid union scum" used to run for modest wages.

This country used to pay people to make great products and build great companies. Today we destroy companies.

All of you "free market capitalists" who want to deride union workers, please ask yourselves if you would take a 1/3 pay cut and not say a word besides "Gee, that's just spiffy boss."

Those of you who said "yes", please remember that when we become a third-world country and there are no more boots to lick. (The people you are criticizing are more like you than the Wall Street wizards who destroyed this company.)

We are approaching the day where nothing but excuses will be made in America.
Have you ever skipped a month or two of paychecks so that everyone else could get paid?
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Old 11-18-2012, 14:16   #117
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Unions are necessary and serve a vital role for those who's skill and value doesn't speak for itself.
Wait! Weren't you trying to bust the Firefighters union a week or so ago? How's that coming along?
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Old 11-18-2012, 14:17   #118
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i would guess that the more the workers get paid the more the teamsters are paid soooooooooo......id guess they were just greedy
I just hope the old timer's retirements are safe. The unions really shafted that company and the workers too.
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Old 11-18-2012, 14:26   #119
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What would really be great would be for employers in localities to band together and fix wages and employment terms for various employee classes.

Like a union for businesses.
That's a fantastic idea! Maybe for the betterment of the state of our economy instead of simply satisfying the insatiable greed of the few. Here's a great example!

http://www.businessinsider.com/henry...ncrease-2012-8
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Old 11-18-2012, 14:28   #120
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What would really be great would be for employers in localities to band together and fix wages and employment terms for various employee classes.

Like a union for businesses.
I worked at a GM Dealership for four years. The Dealers Association was my first experience with what you are suggesting.
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Old 11-18-2012, 14:32   #121
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Teamsters knew from their press release a few days before the Hostess strike deadline that Hostess was not bluffing, as the Teamsters had seen the company books. Bakers union didn't see it that way. Why didn't teamsters basically advise its workers, to whom it owes a duty, to go back to work and cross a picket line created by a less sophisticated and less informed union?

I mean, I have always presumed union members to be lazy and without a grasp of how to stand on individual merit. I did not know they apparently were stupid.

IMHO many that work for wages be they Union or Not have no direct knowledge of what the cost of operating a business are, or the cost are associated with having employees.

So these people will never understand why a business. That appears to be doing well operating in the black is not and is operating in red ink.
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Old 11-18-2012, 14:35   #122
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I just hope the old timer's retirements are safe.
They're not.

When a company goes bankrupt, there's no more money to fund pensions. The old-timer pensions end up either getting paid by the new company that emerges from bankruptcy (unlikely in this case) or by the PBGC (a federal agency).
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Old 11-18-2012, 14:48   #123
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Unions are necessary and serve a vital role for those who's skill and value doesn't speak for itself.
I see what you did there.
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Old 11-18-2012, 14:52   #124
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I see what you did there.
Think about that the next time you hop on a commercial airliner.

CF is like a scorned woman. We just don't know who hurt his feeling yet.
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Old 11-18-2012, 14:58   #125
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That's a fantastic idea! Maybe for the betterment of the state of our economy instead of simply satisfying the insatiable greed of the few. Here's a great example!

http://www.businessinsider.com/henry...ncrease-2012-8
It is a great example.

But the most important takeaway from that example is this:

Quote:
the historical consensus is that Ford actually made this decision for a different reason: To reduce employee turnover--and, in so doing, reduce recruiting and replacement cost.
At the time that Henry Ford made that decision, it made business sense.

He didn't do it out of kindness. He did it because it would make him more money. Ultimately, he did it out of the very greed that you villify.

Today, things are both the same and different. There are lots and lots of companies out there who offer top pay and top benefits in order to reduce turnover and replacement costs (I know, I work for one, and I'm hugely loyal to my organization because I know that a) I'd have a hard time replacing my wages if I left and b) they treat me very, very well). The reason they do so is because top talent is hard to find.

However, factory work doesn't require top talent. A factory worker is far cheaper to replace than the ones of Henry Ford's day, because the general level of education today has made skills that were scarce in Henry Ford's day far cheaper.

The Henry Ford example is a great example of corporate greed being allowed to guide corporate decisions, improve the competitiveness of a company, which allowed the company to continue providing wages and benefits to its labor force, to the ultimate benefit of the owners, the workforce, and the nation.
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