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Old 11-17-2012, 17:45   #51
whiskey rebel1
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Question for unions. When will you stop donating to anti gun dems? Put them on notice now! Stop attacking MY Second Amendment rights or you'll get no more union help. III
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Old 11-17-2012, 17:51   #52
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Originally Posted by whiskey rebel1 View Post
Question for unions. When will you stop donating to anti gun dems? Put them on notice now! Stop attacking MY Second Amendment rights or you'll get no more union help. III
That will happen about the same time the Republican candidates start supporting unions. When do you think that will be?
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Old 11-17-2012, 17:55   #53
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Except now they get 99 months of unemployment benefits so there is no incentive to look for another job for 2 years.
99 weeks UI expired in many cases. As the unemployment rate dropped, do did the FedGov's propping up of state's Unemployment Comps.

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Originally Posted by lunarspeak View Post
im sorry but those guys screwed up...they got greedy and wanted it all and now they got nothing.....i mean weren't these guys making like $30+ a hour???? they deserved to lose their jobs if you cant live off of that..
I do not know of many jobs outside of the UAW and UPS that can pay $30 per hour for unskilled labor.

Generally speaking, union work rules are such that they maximize the number of union member are required to do a particular task.

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Originally Posted by PaulMason View Post
The unions could have looked at the books and bankruptcy filing and saw the financials and saw if management had room to negotiate on wages. Maybe they could of negotiated for a piece of the new company for the wage reduction. Why didn't they do that?
Unions aren't particularly concerned with that stuff. They are in the business of demanding a certain wage and benefit level. It is the company management/ownership responsibility to figure out how to make it happen.
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Old 11-17-2012, 17:58   #54
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Originally Posted by MooseJaw View Post
I'm OK w/o Twinkies.. but no more Sno-Balls??

That's Un-American!!
I'm more of a "Ding Dong" man myself!

Seriously though, the question of Unions vs Management has been going on in the U.S. since the early 1900's.

My Dad was a UMWA member and I was a UAW member and I also held management position.

I've always mantained that if corporations had treated their workers fairly in the beginning of the "industrial age", there would never had been a need for unions.
Later on when the unions gained more power they began "flexing their muscles" and making more outrageous demands without concerns of making profits or making their company (ies) stronger or more efficient.

So sad to see such a popular business fail, and even sadder to see more people unemployed.
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Old 11-17-2012, 18:08   #55
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The 2 main ways to buy a company -

1. Buy the common stock - you own the company and all the crap contracts that go along with it - plus any possible future legal problems - even if they happened before you bought the company.

2. Buy the assets - all the baggage in the old company stays with the old company.

I can't imagine anyone wanting the Hostess company common stock - but many will want to buy the assets - which include the brands & manufacturing methods.

Course a bankruptcy judge will have to approve everything - which if you are the high bidder on the assets is not normally a problem.


Interesting...so if they go option #2, the contracts probably will not follow?
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Old 11-17-2012, 18:22   #56
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Except now they get 99 months of unemployment benefits so there is no incentive to look for another job for 2 years.
No incentive? Unemployment insurance is generally a lot less than what you make at a job.

If you said that there is a REDUCED incentive, you'd be correct. But you said no incentive, so you are wrong.
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Old 11-17-2012, 19:07   #57
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What was the deal offered by Hostess? Do you know what the union was being asked to give up? What's the magic number for you, if your boss tells you you're getting a 5% cut, 7%, 8, 10? What would be acceptable to you?
In 2009 the leadership where I work determined they'd screwed the pooch on the budget and gave us all a 7-day furlough period. IIRC, it equated to a 3% pay cut for that fiscal year. The plus side of it was that no one was going to be laid off.

We had the option of scheduling our days off. I won a bid for a replacement window job so I took all my days consecutively. In 3 days I made up all the money I'd lost and enough to pay 3 helpers. You have to be prepared for such things, union or not.
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Old 11-17-2012, 19:19   #58
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I've seen many different unions from the perspective of a fellow employee, customer, vendor, manager, and member. In my opinion, there are unions with totally wrong priorities, and there are unions (small minority of them) that serve a purpose for employees without creating an adversarial relationship with management and hurting efficiency - construction trade unions that I've been around have been good - maintaining consistent pay, safety standards etc, from one location to another.

I was teamster and have seen them do things that resulted in massive numbers of lost jobs, especially in the trucking industry. The newsletter that I received quarterly typically started off with the status of Jackie Presser's criminal charges and legal proceedings.

Do some research on the Hostess bankruptcy. It's an interesting read - following the company through profitable years until the past two decades where its products fell out of favor with Americans, then ownership changed to private equity. The teamsters agreed to the recent concessions. It was the Bakery and Confectioner union that refused the latest round. I think that the central issue was that management wanted dissolution of the company's obligation the pension fund - $942 mil debt. The workers had been through previous rounds of concessions and felt like the company was going out of business sooner or later anyway, so why let them off the hook.
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Old 11-17-2012, 19:30   #59
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Originally Posted by holesinpaper View Post
Compared to no job? 10% seems ok.
If 10% will still keep your head above water, maybe you could take it. But what about the people who couldn't survive a 10% cut?


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Originally Posted by lunarspeak View Post
so the guys that work for hostess are now jobless and the guys that refused the offers by hostess still have jobs and prob make something into the 6 figures..


im sorry but those guys screwed up...they got greedy and wanted it all and now they got nothing.....i mean werent these guys makeing like $30+ a hour???? they deserved to lose thier jobs if you cant live off of that.. i only make $14 a hour and i own a house and a nice car and have never wanted for anything...well that one chic at olive garden but im working on that.
Depends where you live, 14/hr @80 hrs a pay period wouldn't pay rent for a 1 bedroom in most of AK where I live. Much less gas/food/everything else you need to get by.
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Old 11-17-2012, 19:40   #60
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I do not know exactly what was on the table so I would just look dumb knocking what happened.

I know locally we went through this with Winchester. The company had pushed the Unions back twenty years and still wanted more. The insult to the members was Winchester had been making record profits and working the employees on mandatory OT for years. The strain of doing more with less wore them thin.

Winchester finally pushed the wrong button by asking them to give up vacations and more wages in exchange Winchester would keep their jobs for up to seven years.

I thought they should take the up to seven year deal. The members voted to reject. The Union continued to negotiate benefits away and the President ended up assaulted and left bleeding in the parking lot.

A second vote ended up with a loud F U to Winchester. The gamble paid off because the guys are getting these years and did not supplement Winchester move with their pay.

Most are happy in the fact that they were losing their jobs to cheap unskilled labor no matter what they did or gave up. They stood up to the company and scored a victory. Many are still working working tons of over time trying to correct the unskilled labors problems. They will continue to suck up every penny that they can until the plant here closes.
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Old 11-17-2012, 19:53   #61
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Originally Posted by dherloc View Post
That will happen about the same time the Republican candidates start supporting unions. When do you think that will be?
My Union does not automatically donate based on party. They will only donate based on the politicians position on labor.
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Old 11-17-2012, 20:09   #62
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Except now they get 99 months of unemployment benefits so there is no incentive to look for another job for 2 years.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
I don't think so, not in Indiana, if I am reading this correctly. They voluntarily went on strike, no unemployment for them.

http://www.state.in.us/legislative/i.../ar4/ch15.html
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Old 11-17-2012, 21:00   #63
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Originally Posted by dherloc View Post
Interesting...so if they go option #2, the contracts probably will not follow?
Normally yes -

It would be like -

You buy a truck from Hostess you are not responsible for the accident the truck had last year -

You buy the company - you assume the contingent liabilities.

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Old 11-17-2012, 21:04   #64
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My Union does not automatically donate based on party. They will only donate based on the politicians position on labor.
Politicians position on labor!!!

Last edited by Z71bill; 11-17-2012 at 21:12..
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Old 11-18-2012, 00:59   #65
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Where I work:
A few year back we took a 10% cut for 1 year to help the company
Managers took a 15% cut for that year
Senior managers took a 20% cut for that year

No one got laid off

I think that's better than the whole company shutting its doors.

We are NOT a union shop.
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Old 11-18-2012, 01:16   #66
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I have worked in unionized industries since I got out of HS, I have never worked in a union shop and never would!
If you don't make enough money, find a better paying job or employer! If you can't you aren't worth what you think you are!
If my shop went union I'd quit! I couldn't afford the pay cut.
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:57   #67
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
Say they lost the 5% this year and kept going...

Next year is another 5%, and when there are complaints, they say "Well, you were fine with it last year..."

When is "well, I still have a job" worth more than getting reamed year after year?

What was given up by the union in the last 2, 3, 4 contract renewals? How much has been given up before now that made them draw this line in the sand.


My point is that I don't know these answers. Maybe this is the first time there's ever been a push to reduce salaries, but do you really believe that, from a company that's been in such financial trouble?
I cannot answer those questions either, however the numbers still make sense. If the company is in the red and in the middle of a bankruptcy filing, cuts have to be made. I doubt the only cuts they made were with payroll. Other expenses bit the dust too I am sure. The bottom line is that the bakers union called the companies bluff and lost. Now over 18000 people are unemployed because the union representing 5000 refused to compromise. And the irony of it all is that the unions are supposedly there to prevent the exact practices that they perform on a regular basis.
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:58   #68
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Where I work:
A few year back we took a 10% cut for 1 year to help the company
Managers took a 15% cut for that year
Senior managers took a 20% cut for that year

No one got laid off

I think that's better than the whole company shutting its doors.

We are NOT a union shop.
Which is why common sense prevailed and you still have a job with that company. During tough times, sacrifices must be made. Maybe one day the unions will get it too.
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:23   #69
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original question

Anyone have an idea why teamsters didn't tell its members to cross the picket line and try to keep the jobs. Teamsters had an obligation to its members, not bakers union scum.
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:48   #70
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At my last job of 12 years, I was a member of the Teamsters Union. Actually, I was forced to be in it if I wanted to work for that company.

From my experience, they are lazy people with some type of addiction. Whether itís alcohol, illegal drugs or prescription pain killers.

They also do not work well with others. They are self-serving people. If you were struggling with doing a task that requires great physical ability and you were about to get hurt, they would not help you. They would most likely say something like, thatís not my job or I put my time in. I have had this happen numerous times. I loathed my coworkers.

While at Union Meetings, voting on contracts I witnessed many people attempting to rile up others to vote down contracts. Even when the offer was about the best you were going to get. These people live for strikes. In my opinion, they are nothing more than instigators.

A Union would never advise its members to ever cross a Picket Line. Itís just not their way of doing things. They would rather see a company close up than to give in. They are not smart or rational people.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:21   #71
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if I heard the CEO correctly on the morning news, he said Teamsters DID cross picket lines to work. Too little, too late, they could not keep delivering.

I'm on my way to the mega marts to see if I can still get some Twinkies.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:26   #72
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Anyone have an idea why teamsters didn't tell its members to cross the picket line and try to keep the jobs. Teamsters had an obligation to its members, not bakers union scum.
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if I heard the CEO correctly on the morning news, he said Teamsters DID cross picket lines to work. Too little, too late, they could not keep delivering.
Some Teamsters did.

What I read (I'll see if I can find a source) was that the Teamsters leadership decided to end the strike, thought the bakers union was going to go along, and didn't think to give the Teamsters membership clear direction about what to do.

Then when the Teamsters got to work, and they were faced with a picket line, some of them crossed it but most stood around in confusion. The Teamsters leadership wanted its folks back to work but did not want to order them to cross a picket line.

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Old 11-18-2012, 08:34   #73
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Hostess's time has come and gone with or without union employees. Very few people still buy Twinkies and there are far better options for white bread. Who do you folks blame when thousands of non union companies go out of business? Customers?
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:52   #74
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Hostess's time has come and gone with or without union employees. Very few people still buy Twinkies and there are far better options for white bread. Who do you folks blame when thousands of non union companies go out of business? Customers?
"Come and gone"? Hostess has six times the revenue of Smith & Wesson.

It loses about a hundred million dollars on almost three billion of revenue. A 10% improvement in operating margin would put it in the black. Since (I imagine) much of its cost structure was tied up in labor, they probably could have made it if the unions had made concessions.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:19   #75
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Originally Posted by wjv View Post
Where I work:
A few year back we took a 10% cut for 1 year to help the company
Managers took a 15% cut for that year
Senior managers took a 20% cut for that year

No one got laid off

I think that's better than the whole company shutting its doors.

We are NOT a union shop.
It's really sounding like NOT being union gives an employer the flexibility to survive the hard times.
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