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Old 11-17-2012, 14:29   #26
Jon_R
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How much is the bet that Hostess comes back under maybe another name and resumes without a union. It's all about the dollars. I don't think a company as big as Hostess closes up shop without a plan.
Sure why not. Probably get a good deal on some equipment, factories, trucks etc... Decide what it is worth to you for labor in different jobs and start hiring. I heard there is a big labor surplus now in that field.
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Old 11-17-2012, 14:32   #27
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Unions are wonderful. If you want a job you MUST join union and pay dues or no job. (many jobs/if union) If you have a small business that does similar job to what union does. They will "invite" you to join union and have oppertunity to pay dues.etc. If you decline it will become less and less friendly.
Then they will tell you not to work so hard. I will never join a union.
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Old 11-17-2012, 14:34   #28
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Except now they get 99 months of unemployment benefits so there is no incentive to look for another job for 2 years.

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I can honestly say that I doubt that. I know with my expenses I could not live on $246 a week after taxes. Could you? Also, where are you getting the 99 month figure from? When my girlfriend got laid off they cut her off at 12 months.
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Old 11-17-2012, 14:35   #29
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Sure why not. Probably get a good deal on some equipment, factories, trucks etc... Decide what it is worth to you for labor in different jobs and start hiring. I heard there is a big labor surplus now in that field.
The company sells what it can for what it can get.

Some other company can buy the brands and make them in their bakeries. The brands is where the big money is. Twinkies and HoHos probably will be back.
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Old 11-17-2012, 14:48   #30
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What was the deal offered by Hostess? Do you know what the union was being asked to give up? What's the magic number for you, if your boss tells you you're getting a 5% cut, 7%, 8, 10? What would be acceptable to you?
Compared to no job? 10% seems ok.
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Old 11-17-2012, 15:11   #31
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Not a union defender by any means, but suppose the company told you, dudes, we're on the ropes, we make crap nobody wants anymore. Our two main products have become the generic names for bad junk food and cheap, mass produced mediocre white bread. So, why don't you all take a xx% pay cut, pay more for your health insurance, lose some other stuff and then in a few months or a year maybe we'll bow to the inevitable and go bankrupt and lay you off anyway.

I have no idea what the union was offered, but sometimes your choice is a crap sadwich or a crap sandwich with cheese.

Another possibility is that unions and management develop a real hate relationship over the years of constant bargining, grievences, arbitrations etc. Unions and management routinely lie to each other and the press to gain an advantage in bargining so how do we know the union members both knew and believed the financial state of the company.
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Old 11-17-2012, 15:24   #32
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Originally Posted by gilfo View Post
How much is the bet that Hostess comes back under maybe another name and resumes without a union. It's all about the dollars. I don't think a company as big as Hostess closes up shop without a plan.
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Sure why not. Probably get a good deal on some equipment, factories, trucks etc... Decide what it is worth to you for labor in different jobs and start hiring. I heard there is a big labor surplus now in that field.
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The company sells what it can for what it can get.

Some other company can buy the brands and make them in their bakeries. The brands is where the big money is. Twinkies and HoHos probably will be back.

I certainly hope so. A world without Twinkies frightens me.
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Old 11-17-2012, 15:27   #33
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Months?? I hope it is still weeks though I know how the election went so maybe.
Eight years does sound like a bit long for unemployment. Wasn't there a Seinfeld episode somewhat like that in which Kramer thought he might actually have to go back to work because some decade old strike might have been ending?
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Old 11-17-2012, 15:36   #34
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Except now they get 99 months of unemployment benefits so there is no incentive to look for another job for 2 years.

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Wouldn't that be like 8 years 3 months.
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Old 11-17-2012, 15:39   #35
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...how do we know the union members both knew and believed the financial state of the company.
Because bankruptcy filings are very expensive and public. Also it is illegal to lie about financials on a public statement. Seems like it would not be too difficult to believe.


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Old 11-17-2012, 15:40   #36
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I dislike unions myself but I think I understand their position. If the union caved in and accepted the not agreed to pay cut then every company in the future in the same type of situation will simply threaten to close the doors and shut down unless the union accepts the offer.


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A company can not use lies in the negotiating process.

Sure there is some gray area but using a threat that we will have to close and go out of business if we don't get X% cut - if not true would cause an unfair labor practice charge and the NLRB would fine the crap out of them.

The union is however allowed to say almost anything - lie or not - and they (almost) never get into any trouble.

IIRC - during a union organizing effort (prior to the company getting a union) - if a company threatens to close the business if a union is formed - EVEN IF TRUE - they still can not say it.
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Old 11-17-2012, 15:48   #37
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We are at the point of no return here folks, draw your line in the sand and be ready to defend it.

Do you have the guts to risk everything for what you believe in?

Hostess products will not die.
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Old 11-17-2012, 15:49   #38
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I certainly hope so. A world without Twinkies frightens me.

I'm OK w/o Twinkies.. but no more Sno-Balls??

That's Un-American!!
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Old 11-17-2012, 15:52   #39
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Eight years does sound like a bit long for unemployment. Wasn't there a Seinfeld episode somewhat like that in which Kramer thought he might actually have to go back to work because some decade old strike might have been ending?
Yup...he went back to work at H&H Bagels. Then he went on strike again.
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Old 11-17-2012, 15:53   #40
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I certainly hope so. A world without Twinkies frightens me.
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Old 11-17-2012, 15:55   #41
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How much is the bet that Hostess comes back under maybe another name and resumes without a union. It's all about the dollars. I don't think a company as big as Hostess closes up shop without a plan.
100% will happen -

BUT the current owners of Hostess will not be the new owners.

It is not like you can file for bankruptcy - then just start up again as if nothing happened.

They are trying to sell everything - equipment - trucks - brands & trade secrets.

Then some judge will decide who gets paid -

Lawyers always get paid first -
Then any unpaid employee wages
Secured creditors - then unsecured

If there as anything left over the owners may get something - normally they does next to nothing.

The logic is "sort of" the same as if you can't pay your mortgage.

If the house is worth more than the mortgage balance - say house is worth $250K - mortgage is $175K - the homeowner will sell the house and pay off the loan - and not let it go into foreclosure.

If hostess had a lot of extra value over and above its existing debts - the current owners would have sold the company as a complete business.

Hostess must be worth more dead than alive - poor management and greedy unions killed it.
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Old 11-17-2012, 16:00   #42
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How much is the bet that Hostess comes back under maybe another name and resumes without a union. It's all about the dollars. I don't think a company as big as Hostess closes up shop without a plan.
My exact thought when I heard the news this morning.

Too many people on food stamps who like their Twinkies. Tons of money to be made for the new and improved Hostess.
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Old 11-17-2012, 16:05   #43
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You and lard *** Rosey O'Donnell
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Old 11-17-2012, 16:11   #44
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Bakers union wasnt in the teamsters. They were AFLCIO.
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Old 11-17-2012, 16:41   #45
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http://www.businessinsider.com/how-h...unions-2012-11
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Old 11-17-2012, 17:21   #46
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Went looking for the actual contract these guys have and found this:

http://bctgm.org/2012/11/hostess-dem...in-the-making/

CEO who got a 300% raise during all this is jobless too.

Guess he is going to file for unemployment?
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Old 11-17-2012, 17:25   #47
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Found this for those who have never seen a contract:

http://www.emporiawebsites.com/Marke...1_proposal.pdf

Haven't read it all, but it starts with how they pay their casual drivers and their benefits.

This may only be a proposal since it is not signed.
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Old 11-17-2012, 17:28   #48
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Whatever it takes to keep the business running is the acceptable number. The bakers union stood their ground and now look at those morons. Instead of getting paid less, they opted to get paid nothing. Then again these people were stupid enough to join a union in the first place so I can see how basic math may have been too complicated for them. Lets use your numbers as a reference point.

Paycheck - 5% > 0
Paycheck - 7% > 0
Paycheck - 8% > 0
Paycheck - 10% > 0

Seems fairly simple to me. I guess the bakers union doesn't provide intelligence as part of the contract.
Say they lost the 5% this year and kept going...

Next year is another 5%, and when there are complaints, they say "Well, you were fine with it last year..."

When is "well, I still have a job" worth more than getting reamed year after year?

What was given up by the union in the last 2, 3, 4 contract renewals? How much has been given up before now that made them draw this line in the sand.


My point is that I don't know these answers. Maybe this is the first time there's ever been a push to reduce salaries, but do you really believe that, from a company that's been in such financial trouble?
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Old 11-17-2012, 17:35   #49
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100% will happen -

BUT the current owners of Hostess will not be the new owners.

It is not like you can file for bankruptcy - then just start up again as if nothing happened.

They are trying to sell everything - equipment - trucks - brands & trade secrets.

Then some judge will decide who gets paid -

Lawyers always get paid first -
Then any unpaid employee wages
Secured creditors - then unsecured

If there as anything left over the owners may get something - normally they does next to nothing.

The logic is "sort of" the same as if you can't pay your mortgage.

If the house is worth more than the mortgage balance - say house is worth $250K - mortgage is $175K - the homeowner will sell the house and pay off the loan - and not let it go into foreclosure.

If hostess had a lot of extra value over and above its existing debts - the current owners would have sold the company as a complete business.

Hostess must be worth more dead than alive - poor management and greedy unions killed it.
Something to add to this...many times union contracts have successor clauses. IF the company comes back in some way shape or form, they MAY still be dealing with the Bakers and Teamsters again.
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Old 11-17-2012, 17:43   #50
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Something to add to this...many times union contracts have successor clauses. IF the company comes back in some way shape or form, they MAY still be dealing with the Bakers and Teamsters again.
The 2 main ways to buy a company -

1. Buy the common stock - you own the company and all the crap contracts that go along with it - plus any possible future legal problems - even if they happened before you bought the company.

2. Buy the assets - all the baggage in the old company stays with the old company.

I can't imagine anyone wanting the Hostess company common stock - but many will want to buy the assets - which include the brands & manufacturing methods.

Course a bankruptcy judge will have to approve everything - which if you are the high bidder on the assets is not normally a problem.



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