GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-20-2012, 08:42   #226
Roger1079
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: South FL
Posts: 1,734
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
Fire everyone he can the first time he gets a whiff of a union walking around.
All that does is get the terminated employees crying to the NLRB. It isn't quite as simple as it sounds.
Roger1079 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 09:34   #227
FFR Spyder GT
Ex-Gunslinger
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Hog Jaw, Arkansas
Posts: 1,132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
I lived where this happened my entire life and was a police officer during strikes. You people who think this is ancient history, because they only made well-known movies about strikes in the 40-s and 50's have no idea what you are talking about - you may as well argue to people from California that the tide doesn't come in and go out. This was before all news was on the internet, as you well know, so good luck to either of us finding anything more recent than the late 70's, when this stuff still made big news. You won't find eastern KY news from the 80's and early 90's on te internet and you won't find small strikes covered by the New York Times or the Scialist Worker.

However, the Pittston strike, 1989-1990, during the period I was a police officer (and possibly related to the Blue Diamond strike I mentioned), was big enough for a Wikipedia article - the article makes the BS argument that the UMWA was against violence and all of the violence was by these mysterious "non-union" miners, which is absolute nonsense.



So, anyhow, that was 1990, which is within the 25 years you mentioned and during the time period I wrote about.

It's a lot like outsiders who know about the big Hatfield and McCoy feud - not realizing that there were many more and much larger feuds and "wars" that they'll never hear of, because they only know what gets the attention of the major press.
Gee, I read the article but it didn't say anything about "assassinating scabs". But it did state that the Union was anti-violence and organized peaceful protest and that the acts of violence were from non-Union members. None of the violent acts were ever link to the Union.

It also didn't mention machine guns either.

Spyder

P.S. You are a cop, right? Gee, cops belong to the most powerful and corrupt Unions and give Unions and Union Members a bad name and you of all people want to bash Unions.
FFR Spyder GT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 09:45   #228
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 33,403
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFR Spyder GT View Post
Gee, I read the article but it didn't say anything about "assassinating scabs". But it did state that the Union was anti-violence and organized peaceful protest and that the acts of violence were from non-Union members. None of the violent acts were ever link to the Union.

It also didn't mention machine guns either.

Spyder

P.S. You are a cop, right? Gee, cops belong to the most powerful and corrupt Unions and give Unions and Union Members a bad name and you of all people want to bash Unions.
The murder I mentioned was never solved or linked to the strike - just a coal truck driver shot from ambush while driving down the road during a strike. I actually shot one of the M16A1's in custody of state police, from the strike.

Polcie here don't belong to unions and I never have. And no, I am not a police officer now.

You seem to have a non-stop flow of stupid remarks and a lack of any real-world knowledge to back them up. Just what you've been taught by the left-wing press.
__________________
Open carry activists are to gun rights what the Westboro Baptist Church is to free speech.

Last edited by Bren; 11-20-2012 at 09:45..
Bren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 10:49   #229
PBR Sailor
Senior Member
 
PBR Sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: CONUS
Posts: 725
I understand the point of view on both sides of this issue. If it were not for unions, I could have been fired at will without good reason over the years. I also could have earned much less than I did when I was working.

On the other side of the issue, pattern bargaining by my union cost me and a few hundred other workers our jobs. The plant closed and a lot of my neighbors lost their health insurance, homes, etc. The plant remained closed for over 10 years before reopening and a few of the workers I spoke with since it has opened really enjoy working there. I have been told that most of the workers do not want to work with the people who are trying to bring the union back in the plant, because they do not want to do their share of the work. This does nothing to promote the union's image.

Both sides of the issue need to think about what they are doing.
__________________
Guerre 'A Mort
PBR Sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 10:56   #230
humanguerrilla
Senior Member
 
humanguerrilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: the woods
Posts: 3,543
Bankruptcy judge said "Hold on you are skipping mediation" and parties now in mediation.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...nion-mediation
humanguerrilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 11:57   #231
Jon_R
Silver Membership
Senior Member
 
Jon_R's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 4,456
Yes the market will sort it out. If you over pay for labor you go bankrupt because you can't compete. If you under pay for labor you lose good employees and you can't produce the product enough or efficient enough to compete and you go bankrupt. There are places with Unions doing okay and there are places without unions that are failing.

The big change unions bring is trying to standardize costs through collective bargaining using the collective to negotiate vs. the individual. More than likely two employees with 5 years in doing similar jobs will be paid the same in a union shop. In a non union shop the one that produces more will likely be paid more than the one that produces less. The only way to normalize it and the system to work is to under pay the top performer and overpay the under performer. Can work if that delta is not to big otherwise top performers leave and you are just left over paying for labor and it fails.

The only ones that can buck the entire system are public unions as they can't fail or go bankrupt or at least it takes a very long time to get to that point. Mostly because on the micro scale the customers can not opt to take their business somewhere else.

If a private business wants unions or not I don't care. Make your choice take your chances but I also don't care if they fail. I will buy the product if I find its value to me is worth the cost of the item.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PBR Sailor View Post
I understand the point of view on both sides of this issue. If it were not for unions, I could have been fired at will without good reason over the years. I also could have earned much less than I did when I was working.

On the other side of the issue, pattern bargaining by my union cost me and a few hundred other workers our jobs. The plant closed and a lot of my neighbors lost their health insurance, homes, etc. The plant remained closed for over 10 years before reopening and a few of the workers I spoke with since it has opened really enjoy working there. I have been told that most of the workers do not want to work with the people who are trying to bring the union back in the plant, because they do not want to do their share of the work. This does nothing to promote the union's image.

Both sides of the issue need to think about what they are doing.
Jon_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 13:19   #232
FFR Spyder GT
Ex-Gunslinger
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Hog Jaw, Arkansas
Posts: 1,132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
The murder I mentioned was never solved or linked to the strike - just a coal truck driver shot from ambush while driving down the road during a strike. I actually shot one of the M16A1's in custody of state police, from the strike.

Polcie here don't belong to unions and I never have. And no, I am not a police officer now.

You seem to have a non-stop flow of stupid remarks and a lack of any real-world knowledge to back them up. Just what you've been taught by the left-wing press.
I'm gonna call BS on your story.

A M16A1? Really? Every M16A1 ever made has been registered ( think NFA ) and it would be very easy to trace to its owner.

I can see it now........

Union member: Hey, is that a machinegun?

Dude: Yes, yes it is.

Union member: Can I borrow it so I can shot at coal trucks as they drive by?

Dude: Sure. Here's a few mags and a case of ammo too.



You seem to have a non-stop flow of stupid remarks and a lack of any real-world knowledge to back them up. Just what you've been taught by the right-wing radio talk shows.



Spyder

P.S. you actually thought Romney was going to win too. Geez, talk about lack of any real-world knowledge.
FFR Spyder GT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 16:49   #233
AWoods
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFR Spyder GT View Post
I'm gonna call BS on your story.

A M16A1? Really? Every M16A1 ever made has been registered ( think NFA ) and it would be very easy to trace to its owner.

I can see it now........

Union member: Hey, is that a machinegun?

Dude: Yes, yes it is.

Union member: Can I borrow it so I can shot at coal trucks as they drive by?

Dude: Sure. Here's a few mags and a case of ammo too.



You seem to have a non-stop flow of stupid remarks and a lack of any real-world knowledge to back them up. Just what you've been taught by the right-wing radio talk shows.



Spyder

P.S. you actually thought Romney was going to win too. Geez, talk about lack of any real-world knowledge.
Straw man after straw man after straw man.
AWoods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 17:19   #234
Hef
Stop Obammunism
 
Hef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Hilton Head, SC
Posts: 4,971
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFR Spyder GT View Post
I'm gonna call BS on your story.

A M16A1? Really? Every M16A1 ever made has been registered ( think NFA ) and it would be very easy to trace to its owner.

I can see it now........

Union member: Hey, is that a machinegun?

Dude: Yes, yes it is.

Union member: Can I borrow it so I can shot at coal trucks as they drive by?

Dude: Sure. Here's a few mags and a case of ammo too.



You seem to have a non-stop flow of stupid remarks and a lack of any real-world knowledge to back them up. Just what you've been taught by the right-wing radio talk shows.



Spyder

P.S. you actually thought Romney was going to win too. Geez, talk about lack of any real-world knowledge.
Only machine guns sold to civilians through lawful channels have been registered under the NFA. Illegally modified semiautomatic rifles wouldn't be registered, and stolen military contract rifles have never been registered.

You may now recant your statement.
__________________
Molon labe
Hef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 18:19   #235
whoflungdo
Senior Member
 
whoflungdo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: MS
Posts: 6,055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hef View Post
Only machine guns sold to civilians through lawful channels have been registered under the NFA. Illegally modified semiautomatic rifles wouldn't be registered, and stolen military contract rifles have never been registered.

You may now recant your statement.
Have you read any of his posts? Not gonna happen...
__________________

GTDS Certified Member #9
whoflungdo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 18:25   #236
Hef
Stop Obammunism
 
Hef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Hilton Head, SC
Posts: 4,971
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoflungdo View Post
Have you read any of his posts? Not gonna happen...
He's one of those people who thinks he knows everything? I got that impression from his post.
__________________
Molon labe
Hef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 18:52   #237
whoflungdo
Senior Member
 
whoflungdo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: MS
Posts: 6,055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hef View Post
He's one of those people who thinks he knows everything? I got that impression from his post.
Yes...cannot think critically or outside the box. Can only regurgitate talking points...
__________________

GTDS Certified Member #9
whoflungdo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 20:10   #238
KenMac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 216
Unions and workers

Every worker, union or not, owes unions a debt of gratitude for what they have done in the past when working conditions were bad and wages even worse. Nowadays, I'm not sure unions are needed in most workplaces. There is a point when greed and stubborness takes over and the good of the majority gets pushed aside. Common sense has lost it's place in negotiations in some instances, I'm afraid. By the way, I was union officer at every job I've had until I got my present job 17 years ago. Both sides must share the fault here.
KenMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 15:23   #239
PBR Sailor
Senior Member
 
PBR Sailor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: CONUS
Posts: 725
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenMac View Post
Every worker, union or not, owes unions a debt of gratitude for what they have done in the past when working conditions were bad and wages even worse. Nowadays, I'm not sure unions are needed in most workplaces. There is a point when greed and stubborness takes over and the good of the majority gets pushed aside. Common sense has lost it's place in negotiations in some instances, I'm afraid. By the way, I was union officer at every job I've had until I got my present job 17 years ago. Both sides must share the fault here.
I have to agree. One thing that always bothered me though was that some of our union members thought they were employed by the union and not the company. Eventually when the plant where we worked was shut down they discovered that was not the case.
__________________
Guerre 'A Mort

Last edited by PBR Sailor; 11-21-2012 at 15:25..
PBR Sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 15:49   #240
pugman
Senior Member
 
pugman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 6,012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger1079 View Post
An employee always has the option to quit. Nobody is forcing them to deal with unfair business practices. They are employees not prisoners or slaves.
Or Union worker quit job...go back to school...get master degree...work for hedge fund?
__________________
Now when asked when I think things will change I answer "The next time Thomas (aka the fed) robs Peter (aka the 53%) to pay Paul (aka the 47%) and Peter pulls a gun...things will change"
pugman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 16:49   #241
KenMac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by PBR Sailor View Post
I have to agree. One thing that always bothered me though was that some of our union members thought they were employed by the union and not the company. Eventually when the plant where we worked was shut down they discovered that was not the case.

Exactly! I never relied on the union to keep my job for me... I did that by being a good employee. The union was there to negotiate wages and benefits. The bad part of being unionized is that the worst employee in any job class makes the same as the best and most productive employee. Merit raises are nonexistent.
KenMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 16:57   #242
ampeg500
Registered User
 
ampeg500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 16
I'm actually making more at my current non-union job than I was at my old union job. And it's a much nicer place to be. Union membership has been gradually dwindling for the past 70 years...
ampeg500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 17:32   #243
SevenSixtyTwo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tampa Bay Area Fl
Posts: 2,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenMac View Post
Exactly! I never relied on the union to keep my job for me... I did that by being a good employee. The union was there to negotiate wages and benefits. The bad part of being unionized is that the worst employee in any job class makes the same as the best and most productive employee. Merit raises are nonexistent.
If our techs don't perform to the expectation of our supervisor and manager, they get laid off or fired. As a technician myself, I expect the other techs to pull their own weight. We get paid the same to do the same job. Not for me to do it for them. I've kept my job with the same company for over 30 years by being a good employee. I don't know about up north but here in Florida, bad employees don't keep their job in our company. That includes crybabies. If my boss tells me to wash his car, I'm getting out the bucket and suds. He's the guy that pays me. Then I send a check to the hall for dues. Not the other way around. Merit raises are in the form of a percentage above scale. When we need a new tech, it's as simple as calling the hall to see who's available if not locally, anywhere in the US. First and foremost, the best way to be a good union member is to be a good employee. Otherwise we contribute to the anti-union bunch no different than the bad firearms owners feeding the Brady Bunch to the frustration of the NRA and it's members. Union members should strive to be the best employees. Unfortunately, that's not showing to be the case a little too often.
SevenSixtyTwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 19:01   #244
AWoods
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenSixtyTwo View Post
We get paid the same to do the same job.
It's nearly impossible for two people to do the same job, with the same level of quality, and the same level of efficiency. The job would have to be absolutely mindless, utterly simple, and at the same time, not something you can automate or make better in any way including working harder.

When people get paid the same, it's an injustice. It can only happen when the more valuable people have their pay reduced and the less valuable people have their pay increased.

This is the essence of socialism.
AWoods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 19:53   #245
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,685


Quote:
Originally Posted by AWoods View Post
It's nearly impossible for two people to do the same job, with the same level of quality, and the same level of efficiency. The job would have to be absolutely mindless, utterly simple, and at the same time, not something you can automate or make better in any way including working harder.

When people get paid the same, it's an injustice. It can only happen when the more valuable people have their pay reduced and the less valuable people have their pay increased.

This is the essence of socialism.
I think you hit the nail on the head here.

Quote:
The job would have to be absolutely mindless, utterly simple, and at the same time, not something you can automate or make better in any way including working harder.
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 20:29   #246
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 33,403
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFR Spyder GT View Post
I'm gonna call BS on your story.

A M16A1? Really? Every M16A1 ever made has been registered ( think NFA ) and it would be very easy to trace to its owner.
No, in fact, that's BS. Tell it to the state police captain who made the papers after getting caught with with one of them 10 years after the strike. Far as I know, the one I fired is still not registered to its owner. I never meant to imply that they were legal and they aren't. They may very well have been registered at one time...to somebody. During this particular strike, one owner had several, new in the box, that he gave to the guys who used them. I know of at least 2 of them turning up later - 1 I fired and 1 that made the papers.

I've run into a lot more illegal factory full-autos than that. Heck a guy tried to trade a friend of mine an M3 greasegun for a pistol in Perry Co. (auto and unregistered) back in the 80's - he almost went for it. They are fairly plentiful here, as are explosives (at the time we were No. 1 in America for criminal bombings - I've seen a truck load of blasting caps stolen just to sell the aluminum wire for recycling).

Must be nice to know that much from sitting on your couch surfing the internet.
__________________
Open carry activists are to gun rights what the Westboro Baptist Church is to free speech.

Last edited by Bren; 11-21-2012 at 20:33..
Bren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 21:18   #247
larry_minn
Silver Membership
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 17,803
FFR Spyder GT. I don't find Bern's post unbelievable at all. Growing up I had contact with a number of full auto. That were NOT legit. At age 17 I told the folks I knew to NEVER talk about, show me them again. (as I was going into LEO as a profession)
Also it is common knowledge that weapons were used as "strike breakers".
larry_minn is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 21:22   #248
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,685


There are LOTS of unregistered FA weapons out there.
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 03:49   #249
Roger1079
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: South FL
Posts: 1,734
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
There are LOTS of unregistered FA weapons out there.
Shame on you for even saying such a thing. I am sure even the weapons from the Fast & Furious disaster were in the NFA registry too.

Roger1079 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 06:35   #250
SevenSixtyTwo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tampa Bay Area Fl
Posts: 2,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by AWoods View Post
It's nearly impossible for two people to do the same job, with the same level of quality, and the same level of efficiency. The job would have to be absolutely mindless, utterly simple, and at the same time, not something you can automate or make better in any way including working harder.

When people get paid the same, it's an injustice. It can only happen when the more valuable people have their pay reduced and the less valuable people have their pay increased.

This is the essence of socialism.
So our military is socialist? They are mindless, utterly simple and an injustice? More valuable people get more perks and privileges and often move into management positions. Less valuable people don't make it to full scale or get let go.
SevenSixtyTwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 16:54.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,201
416 Members
785 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42