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Old 11-16-2012, 04:54   #26
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Originally Posted by arizona_andy View Post
What on Earth does this have to do with the situation in Israel? I assume it's some attempt at an analogy, but it doesn't fly. At all.



Israel "kicked out" the Palestinians out in 1948-49? Let's back up a bit..

The Ottoman Empire was defeated in WWI, and Great Britain gained control of the region we know today as Israel.

In 1948, the UN agreed to the formation of the independent State of Israel, as well as an Arab State of Palestine, which comprised about half of what we know as Israel today.

On May 14th 1948, David Ben-Gurion declared the establishment of the Jewish state. The next day much of the Arab world declared war on Israel, rejecting a plan which would have given them an independent Palestine.

The Arabs were defeated, and their chance at controlling Palestine vanished. How anyone can say that Israel is not a legitimate state and just "kicked out" these people simply doesn't understand the events that have occurred leading up to its formation.

Israel should of course take all measures necessary to ensure its survival. I can guarantee you they will never forget the despicable sneak attack launched on them by the Arab world on their most holy day in 1973 -- what we know today as the Yom Kippur war. If they ever let their guard down they will be wiped out, and they know it.

For the record, I am not Jewish -- I just happen to like facts.
You are quite correct. It was the Balfour Declaration that started the ball rolling in 1917. However, facts don't well with the Israel haters either on Glock Talk or in the Muslim world.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:05   #27
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God gave the land to the Jews 4,000 years ago.
What does a 4000 year old property deed from god look like? What does a 1400 year old poperty deed from Allah look like? When there are two competing deeds, how do you sort it out since neither side recognizes the others court/judge?
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:07   #28
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Waiting for DanaT to put in his meaningless opinion as well as mentioning the autobahn and Porsche.
Some of us sleep at night.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:11   #29
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That's pretty awesome. Informative, too.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:18   #30
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Waiting for DanaT to put in his meaningless opinion as well as mentioning the autobahn and Porsche.
Well, here you go.

If the original inhabitants of a land are the proper owners, then how many of you GTers supporting this are going to go give your property back to the native Americans? It is VERY clear that they were the ones who "owned" the USA before the Europeans came.

Moving on with history, there have been many groups that have laid cliams to lands and "visitors" come in and take it over.

Do you realize how much the fall of communism affected land ownership? Many people who left the communist block right after WW2 came back with property deeds from before WW2 and wanted the current "owners" (occupiers they claimed) evicted and they wanted their land back. Something had to be done. Basically, the European courts had to make decisions. The decision was they the were forced to abandon land and they gave it it. They were not going to cause another war. They said the war sucked. You lost the land when you left.

No matter what someone was going to lose. There are times when one knows that any outcome will result in a loss, the least damaging is often taken.

The Palestinian problem will not go away until the people live in better conditions. Desperate people turn to radicalism. This has been shown many time in history. The Palestinians are nothing but pawns of the more powerful Arab countries. The more powerful countries need the Palestinians to be living like they.

If the Palestinians were smart, their best solution would be to stop their crap, become peaceful and ask to be part of Israel. If they became Israeli citizens and acted as such, they would go from living in a third world craphole to living in a 1st world country.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:40   #31
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What does a 4000 year old property deed from god look like? What does a 1400 year old poperty deed from Allah look like? When there are two competing deeds, how do you sort it out since neither side recognizes the others court/judge?
It looks like the Torah. It looks like the Wailing Wall. It looks like the hill at Masada. Its referenced in 4,000 years of Jewish and Christian heritage.

Allah never gave that land to the Arabs. The Koran doesn't reference it except to acknowledge that fact that God gave the land to Abraham. Of course Allah also commands his followers to kill all non-believers so maybe the Palestinians just want to fufill their deal as well. Ultimately I don't think the Arabs want to settle a land dispute here. They just want to kill the Jews.


If anyone has a right to that land its the Jews. Fact is the Jews allow Arabs to live inside Israel, own land, build business, and participate in their political process.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:44   #32
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So oppressed they are represented in Israeli government?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...of_the_Knesset

Represented in Israel's Supreme Court?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_ci...tary_positions

You know so little yet you always have to "try" to put your .02 cents in the conversation when it comes to Israel, the Palestinians have it better in Israel than they would have in any Arab country.
Yep, Palestinians now make up 70% of the population of Jordan but are discriminated against and have very little representation in the government.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:49   #33
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For all the weeping and wailing about the plight of the "Palestinians," the rest of the Arab world doesn't seem to have done a whole lot for them other than to explicitly and implicity endorse the killing of Jews.


.
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:00   #34
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The people who the Israelis kicked out in 1948-49 had been there for generations. I'd say the statute of limitations had already run on that claim.
If we're going back 60 years, let's go back even further. The 3rd holiest site in Islam is the dome of the rock, which was built in the year 691. The site it sits on is the Second Temple Mount that was built in 350 BC which sits on the site of the First Temple, this isn't proven in books or lore, you can see it for yourself. http://www.simpletoremember.com/jewish/blog/jerusalem/

Israel kills a terrorist and the world cries, Syria kills 10,000 women and children and the world is silent. Nothing more irritating than Jews defending themselves and not laying down for the slaughter like they should right?
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:01   #35
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For all the weeping and wailing about the plight of the "Palestinians," the rest of the Arab world doesn't seem to have done a whole lot for them other than to explicitly and implicity endorse the killing of Jews.


.
The rest of the Arab world needs them exactly like they are. Many of the countries need external distractions to keep their people from focusing on internal problems.
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:04   #36
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The rest of the Arab world needs them exactly like they are. Many of the countries need external distractions to keep their people from focusing on internal problems.
Yup!


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Old 11-16-2012, 06:05   #37
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It looks like the Torah. It looks like the Wailing Wall. It looks like the hill at Masada. Its referenced in 4,000 years of Jewish and Christian heritage.
You mean the dozen times I climbed Masada or went to the Western Wall or the Church of the Holy Sepluchre wasn't just an illusion, it's actual history? Don't lose any sleep over Israel, they will do what they need to do to defend themselves and continue to be. The defensive wall that they built will help mitigate the number of terrorists that are able to come over from the territories, the wall that the enemies of Israel decry. The same wall we should be building at our Southern border.
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:07   #38
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Here Mark Regev, the Israel PM's spokesman, speaks rationally in the face of CNN stupidity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDbNL...ature=youtu.be
WOW!!!!

It is clear to see who the CNN reporter views as the aggressor in this conflict. No surprise though.
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:14   #39
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It looks like the Torah.
Laws must be recognized before they are truly laws. Jeff Warrens and his branch have their own set of "laws" yet, they are not recognized by the USA govt. The reason why land ownership is as it is in the USA is that the court and law system is "agreed" to by it citizens. Imagine if a Mexican (or Canadian) court determined it had the authority to make rulings on USA property deed disputes.

The Torah is a not a universally recognized set of laws, in fact, I dont think any country in the world (except for maybe Israel..they might not even) officially recognize it as law.

Quote:
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It looks like the Wailing Wall. It looks like the hill at Masada.
Those are physical places. You can go to Colmar France and see a German city but it is now in France. Many Prussian are in Poland but they look German. Italy claims part of Sued-Tirol and is the recognized government. Anasazi Indians had dwellings in the southwest USA showing they were there first.



Quote:
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Its referenced in 4,000 years of Jewish and Christian heritage.
If it is the absolute truth, why is it not mentioned in 4000 years of Chinese heritage? Why should the Chinese recognize it? Absolute is absolute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
Allah never gave that land to the Arabs. The Koran doesn't reference it except to acknowledge that fact that God gave the land to Abraham. Of course Allah also commands his followers to kill all non-believers so maybe the Palestinians just want to fufill their deal as well. Ultimately I don't think the Arabs want to settle a land dispute here. They just want to kill the Jews.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
If anyone has a right to that land its the Jews.
Why not the Babylonian ancestors? They built civilizations in the mid-east before anyone. Is this a first there type thing or what give someone more "right" than someone else? Why would a native american not have more right to your property than you do if this is how who has a "right" is deteremined.


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Fact is the Jews allow Arabs to live inside Israel, own land, build business, and participate in their political process.
Hence why I said if the Palestinians were smart they would want to be Israeli citizens. Their quality of life would improve immensely. But, as I said in other posts, the other Arabs have a stake in making sure that doesnt happen.
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:15   #40
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Roll the tanks and level the place and get it over with. Don't mess with the IDF because they value life.

Last edited by mgs; 11-16-2012 at 06:17..
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:34   #41
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After the 1948 division the Palestinians WERE GIVEN THEIR OWN COUNTRY. It was west of Jordan and east of what was then the newly formed Israel They decided to get greedy and wanted more and expanded out of the TransJordan area with the help of the Egyptians and others.
In the development of their place in life they chose a downward path that led them from a 2nd class society to a 4th class society: one of violence, theft, graft and suppression.
Isreal in the meantime built a 1st class society and strives to protect it.
The Palestinians dont own it and have/ had no historical rights to it.
What they had and lost is history, Israel then gave them another chance and gave them Gaza a few years ago. When Israel gave them Gaza they gave them that land complete with all the modern facilities there, roads, electrical, sewer, water and so on. Of course the new citizens then promptly destroyed that infrastructure. They then further returned the gift with kidnapping, killings and missiles all the while taking donations from all over the world for improvements to their society and, true to form, diverting those charitable donations into weapons and private bank accounts.
Unlike most if not the majority of the posters here, I worked there, I commuted to there and know that area almost better than I do my own town here in the USA.

>>I sincerely hope that the Israelis do what they are famous for, that they destroy their enemies with extreme prejudice.
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:35   #42
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Israel kills a terrorist and the world cries, Syria kills 10,000 women and children and the world is silent.
What Syria is doing to the people is 100% wrong. I also do not believe for one second that the shelling of IDF stations by Syria was an "accident". Syria is deeply involved in Hamas. I think this current Palestinian uprising is actually being influenced by Syria (Hamas) to take attention away from Syria and its massacres.

And the world isnt "silent". If you watch European TV, they have Syria on the news everyday. It just in the USA we are silent on Syria.

Also, Syria is supported by Russians and Chinese. They nearly explicitly give the Syria the justification for what they are doing. I think the USA is scared to do anything because we know less about the people fighting the Syrian govt than the Syrian govt.

Make no mistake about the "arab Spring" will not be good for the USA. Egypt is starting to get involved in the Palestinian affairs. I.e. the PM of Egypt visits Gaza. Israel says it will have a cease fire while he is there so he is not endangered. The Palestinian militants didnt stop so Israel started back up. The militants WANTED Israel to kill the Egyptian PM so that Egypt would be enraged.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:16   #43
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Laws must be recognized before they are truly laws. Jeff Warrens and his branch have their own set of "laws" yet, they are not recognized by the USA govt. The reason why land ownership is as it is in the USA is that the court and law system is "agreed" to by it citizens. Imagine if a Mexican (or Canadian) court determined it had the authority to make rulings on USA property deed disputes.

The Torah is a not a universally recognized set of laws, in fact, I dont think any country in the world (except for maybe Israel..they might not even) officially recognize it as law.



Those are physical places. You can go to Colmar France and see a German city but it is now in France. Many Prussian are in Poland but they look German. Italy claims part of Sued-Tirol and is the recognized government. Anasazi Indians had dwellings in the southwest USA showing they were there first.





If it is the absolute truth, why is it not mentioned in 4000 years of Chinese heritage? Why should the Chinese recognize it? Absolute is absolute.








Why not the Babylonian ancestors? They built civilizations in the mid-east before anyone. Is this a first there type thing or what give someone more "right" than someone else? Why would a native american not have more right to your property than you do if this is how who has a "right" is deteremined.




Hence why I said if the Palestinians were smart they would want to be Israeli citizens. Their quality of life would improve immensely. But, as I said in other posts, the other Arabs have a stake in making sure that doesnt happen.
Look. You can argue about this like a craphouse lawyer all you want. Bottom line is the Jews have ANCIENT biblical claim to their homeland AND they have the force of Arms to keep it...even expand it if they want. That's all the LAW anyone has ever needed to lay claim to a piece of land. Are the Arabs victims? Sure... But so were the people the Arabs killed and claimed the land from in 800-900 AD.
So were the Hashassains when the Mongols wiped that Islamic sect from the face of the earth 900 years ago. So what?

All those places I mentioned are physical testaments to the
truth that Israel is the Jewish Homeland and has been for 4 thousand years with a couple of interruptions by the Romans and Babylonians.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:30   #44
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All those places I mentioned are physical testaments to the
truth that Israel is the Jewish Homeland and has been for 4 thousand years with a couple of interruptions by the Romans and Babylonians.
You sound like you understand that the history of the Middle East is as old at time itself.

You should realize then that the "State of Israel" as it has existed since 1948 has no long term feasibility, and has never stood on it's own two feet without being propped up by the United States- not for one day.

As the will and ability of the United States to keep bailing them out starts to fade, and as the pro-status-quo Arab dictators are replaced by governments which do the will of the people, we will see a change- one that will require us to update our maps.

The "State of Israel" is just a blip in a very long timeline that will go on forever...

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Old 11-16-2012, 08:30   #45
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All those places I mentioned are physical testaments to the
truth that Israel is the Jewish Homeland and has been for 4 thousand years with a couple of interruptions by the Romans and Babylonians.
There are physical testiments to the truth that native ameircans had the USA as a homeland long before Europeans. Does that mean they have the "right" to take it from european descended american's by force if they had the means?
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:49   #46
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Israel kills a terrorist and the world cries, Syria kills 10,000 women and children and the world is silent. Nothing more irritating than Jews defending themselves and not laying down for the slaughter like they should right?
The worlds view of Jews & Israel summed up in one short paragraph.

Where was the worlds outrage when Obama "drones" dirtbag terrorists in Yemen or Pakistan? There isn't any difference other than he isn't Jewish nor representing Israel.

Can you imagine the outrage if San Diego was being shelled from Mexico? What if Muslim terrorists were doing the shelling? Is it now ok?
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:33   #47
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There are physical testiments to the truth that native ameircans had the USA as a homeland long before Europeans. Does that mean they have the "right" to take it from european descended american's by force if they had the means?

Moot point. They didn't have the means to hold it back then and they don't have the means to take it back now.

If they did it would change the dynamics of the argument however it may not change the outcome.

No amount of self loathing, naval gazing, or finger pointing will change that.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:35   #48
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You sound like you understand that the history of the Middle East is as old at time itself.

You should realize then that the "State of Israel" as it has existed since 1948 has no long term feasibility, and has never stood on it's own two feet without being propped up by the United States- not for one day.

As the will and ability of the United States to keep bailing them out starts to fade, and as the pro-status-quo Arab dictators are replaced by governments which do the will of the people, we will see a change- one that will require us to update our maps.

The "State of Israel" is just a blip in a very long timeline that will go on forever...
Maybe--maybe not. US support is primarily military hardware. I seriously doubt we are the only nation in the world that would send/sell arms to Israel.

Also, the Israeli's have something most of their neighbors don't--the ability to make mushroom clouds against existential threats.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:43   #49
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Moot point. They didn't have the means to hold it back then and they don't have the means to take it back now.

If they did it would change the dynamics of the argument however it may not change the outcome.

No amount of self loathing, naval gazing, or finger pointing will change that.
So this means that might makes right?
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:53   #50
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Maybe--maybe not. US support is primarily military hardware. I seriously doubt we are the only nation in the world that would send/sell arms to Israel.

Also, the Israeli's have something most of their neighbors don't--the ability to make mushroom clouds against existential threats.
"We" ( the USA) use Israel by proxy to test our weapons software and effectiveness. Been there done that was in that business. It was one of the major issues that caused the fall of communism, they realised our stuff was better than their stuff in real combat as witnessed in the Israeli conflicts.
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