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Old 11-16-2012, 17:20   #76
RicoGordo
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Originally Posted by norton View Post
I think you missed my point. This thread has morphed into "gee ain't abortion great".
Load of crap. You are taking a similar flawed reasoning that Limbaugh spews when he says that anyone who is pro-choice likes abortion and is pro-abortion.
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Old 11-16-2012, 17:29   #77
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Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
How can you make that assertion? You don't know my occupation, or where I live.

Furthermore, I don't need to know the sun is hot from not having lived there, or that equatorial regions are warmer than living at the poles.

I can blame the doctors because I know what the Hippocratic Oath is, and BASED ON THE INFORMATION IN THE ARTICLE AND IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN it is clear where the blame lies.
Fair enough. I ass-u-med and I have to apologize for that.

But I still have to ask, How can you blame a doctor for following the law? If they refuse to do something that could end their careers and ruin their lives, it is hard for me to condemn them.

Did they refuse to terminate the pregnancy because the law prohibited them from doing so? Would they have faced losing their medical licenses or going to prison if they had done the abortion?

I blame the lawmakers. But unless the doctors could have aborted without facing legal sanctions, I can't blame them.
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Old 11-16-2012, 17:30   #78
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LOTS of missing information here...living babies don't typically kill people. If she had a septic abortion, that's a different story, but there's no heartbeat with that one. I think that she either had a premature rupture of membranes w/ endometritis (probably would have died anyway) or she had a botched abortion (common in countries like this, and the uterine manipulation can cause sepsis in the mother). I've never heard of a closed uterus w/ a living fetus causing the mother to die if she hasn't been in some kind of traumatic accident....this looks like the media having a witchhunt.

Are you an obstetrician?
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Old 11-16-2012, 17:35   #79
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Yes, it's always so much more convenient and intellectually easy when you can arbitrarily force all those whose opinions differ from your own into little boxes with absolutist/extremist labels on them.

It must be frustrating as hell to have to deal with the reality that most people who oppose abortion are actually reasonable folks who exist in the reasonable middle ground and, in fact, agree with varying exceptions under which women should be able to terminate a pregnancy.

Believe it or not, the same reasonableness extends both ways! The majority of folks who label themselves "pro-choice" actually do believe in having some varying restrictions on abortions, such as banning late-term, partial birth abortions, etc.
You're talking about me!


Pro-choice, but I think a fetus that is 8 weeks from delivery is a human being, and should only be aborted for life/health reasons.

If it is 8 weeks from conception, I do not see a person. Certainly not 8 days after conception, as the nutbags who want to outlaw Morning after pills and IUDs because they consider them to be abortion methods.
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Old 11-16-2012, 17:55   #80
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Load of crap. You are taking a similar flawed reasoning that Limbaugh spews when he says that anyone who is pro-choice likes abortion and is pro-abortion.
I believe in a higher power. I don't go to Church. My bad.
But I think that some day all of us have to answer for what we did or supported while on this earth. Abortion in all but extreme cases is a crime against mankind.
And most of the pro choice people I know think its a womans right to abortion on demand.
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Old 11-16-2012, 19:35   #81
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I believe in a higher power. I don't go to Church. My bad.
But I think that some day all of us have to answer for what we did or supported while on this earth. Abortion in all but extreme cases is a crime against mankind.
And most of the pro choice people I know think its a womans right to abortion on demand.
And that's all fine and dandy, but should your beliefs be law? HH
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Old 11-16-2012, 19:39   #82
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And that's all fine and dandy, but should your beliefs be law? HH
Naw, I think people should be able to do whatever they want. Rape, murder, incest. O yeah!
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Old 11-16-2012, 19:42   #83
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Naw, I think people should be able to do whatever they want. Rape, murder, incest. O yeah!
Just as I suspected. HH
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Old 11-16-2012, 20:06   #84
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Naw, I think people should be able to do whatever they want. Rape, murder, incest. O yeah!
Are you suggesting that only those who share your beliefs refrain from rape, murder and incest?
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Old 11-16-2012, 20:06   #85
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Faux News? Never heard that before, you must be really clever.
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Old 11-16-2012, 20:20   #86
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I believe in a higher power. I don't go to Church. My bad.
But I think that some day all of us have to answer for what we did or supported while on this earth. Abortion in all but extreme cases is a crime against mankind.
And most of the pro choice people I know think its a womans right to abortion on demand.
I wonder why the Bible does not address this if it is such a crime.
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Old 11-16-2012, 20:22   #87
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Originally Posted by RicoGordo View Post
You're talking about me!


Pro-choice, but I think a fetus that is 8 weeks from delivery is a human being, and should only be aborted for life/health reasons.

If it is 8 weeks from conception, I do not see a person. Certainly not 8 days after conception, as the nutbags who want to outlaw Morning after pills and IUDs because they consider them to be abortion methods.
Personally, I lean towards legal abortion for any reason during the first two trimesters, or until measurable brainwave activity from the fetus exists (usually week 22-24 or so). Third trimester abortions I would limit unless there is a significant risk to the health of mother (as opposed to any sort of imminent fear of death standard like Ireland).

Thanks for your candor on the topic!



Exceptions to this being minors, who I think should have access to abortion, but not without parental consent.
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Old 11-16-2012, 20:33   #88
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I wonder why the Bible does not address this if it is such a crime.
Abortion was already old hat by the time they decided to sit down and write the Old Testament. HH
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Old 11-16-2012, 21:29   #89
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Personally, I lean towards legal abortion for any reason during the first two trimesters, or until measurable brainwave activity from the fetus exists (usually week 22-24 or so). Third trimester abortions I would limit unless there is a significant risk to the health of mother
The majority of abortions are being performed early with 88% occurring in the first 12 weeks, and only 1.5% occurring after the 20th week.

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Old 11-16-2012, 21:30   #90
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Naw, I think people should be able to do whatever they want. Rape, murder, incest. O yeah!
Well people are doing it anyways, whether you like it or not. There are plenty of laws against rape, murder, and I'm not sure about incest. But laws or not, they're still doing it anyways. Just because you think it's wrong doesn't stop anybody from doing it.

I honestly believe a woman should be able to do whatever she wants. It's her body, not your's. You should have no say over what someone else does with their body, unless it directly affects you. But I don't see how a woman several thousand miles away has any direct impact upon you.

Why can't people be bothered to follow the golden rule? Would you really like some random person trying to tell you what you can and can't do in the privacy of your own home?
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Old 11-16-2012, 21:57   #91
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I honestly believe a woman should be able to do whatever she wants. It's her body, not your's. You should have no say over what someone else does with their body, unless it directly affects you. But I don't see how a woman several thousand miles away has any direct impact upon you.

Why can't people be bothered to follow the golden rule? Would you really like some random person trying to tell you what you can and can't do in the privacy of your own home?
Do you even know what the Golden Rule is? Hint: it's not not telling others what to do. How about people follow the golden rule like not stick a vacuum somewhere and suck out a fetus and murdering it. I'm guessing most people don't want done to them so why do it to a living breathing human who doesn't have a voice?

I'm all for women having choices. Do it before you get pregnant and don't murder your baby just for the sake of convenience.
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Old 11-16-2012, 22:01   #92
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Do you even know what the Golden Rule is? Hint: it's not not telling others what to do. How about people follow the golden rule like not stick a vacuum somewhere and suck out a fetus and murdering it. I'm guessing most people don't want done to them so why do it to a living breathing human who doesn't have a voice?

I'm all for women having choices. Do it before you get pregnant and don't murder your baby just for the sake of convenience.
The golden rule is treat others based upon how you'd like to be treated. Would you like a Wiccan to try and tell you what you can and can't do based on their beliefs? Do you want them to force you to attend their ceremonies because they believe it's the right thing to do?

If not, why try to force others to follow your beliefs?

Just because you think it's right, doesn't mean it is right. It should be left up to the individual to do what they believe is best for themselves.
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Old 11-16-2012, 22:08   #93
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I'm all for women having choices. Do it before you get pregnant and don't murder your baby just for the sake of convenience.
This woman wanted to become pregant. She wanted to carry the baby to term. When the pregancy went south, she died because the medical technology that could have easily saved her life was denied because of anti-abortion laws. HH
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Old 11-16-2012, 22:11   #94
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This woman wanted to become pregant. She wanted to carry the baby to term. When the pregancy went south, she died because the medical technology that could have easily saved her life was denied because of anti-abortion laws. HH
I understand that and I said that was tragic. We've gone off topic so I am just going down that rabbit trail. This tragic event happens how many times compared to the millions of abortions done for convenience in the US?
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Old 11-16-2012, 22:16   #95
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I understand that and I said that was tragic. We've gone off topic so I am just going down that rabbit trail. This tragic event happens how many times compared to the millions of abortions done for convenience in the US?
For the sake of this thread, those "millions of abortions done for convenience" is completely irelevant. This is about imminent threat to the mother...nothing more, nothing less. HH
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Old 11-16-2012, 22:17   #96
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The golden rule is treat others based upon how you'd like to be treated. Would you like a Wiccan to try and tell you what you can and can't do based on their beliefs? Do you want them to force you to attend their ceremonies because they believe it's the right thing to do?

If not, why try to force others to follow your beliefs?

Just because you think it's right, doesn't mean it is right. It should be left up to the individual to do what they believe is best for themselves.
We're not talking about Wiccans and being forced to go to their ceremonies anymore than we are talking about people being forced to go to church. For the love of Allah, stay on freaking topic.

We are talking about abortion. Do Wiccans believe in murder?
Atheists? You were talking about a woman's choice to murder her unborn child because she doesn't want it? It's wrong regardless of your religion or lack there of. Now this case in Ireland is no doubt a sad affair but let us be honest, it is a very isolated occurance compared to the millions of ladies having abortions that don't die.
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Old 11-16-2012, 22:27   #97
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We're not talking about Wiccans and being forced to go to their ceremonies anymore than we are talking about people being forced to go to church. For the love of Allah, stay on freaking topic.

We are talking about abortion. Do Wiccans believe in murder?
Atheists? You were talking about a woman's choice to murder her unborn child because she doesn't want it? It's wrong regardless of your religion or lack there of. Now this case in Ireland is no doubt a sad affair but let us be honest, it is a very isolated occurance compared to the millions of ladies having abortions that don't die.
There you go again trying to pass your beliefs off as fact. Just because you believe it's murder doesn't mean it's murder. I don't believe it's murder. Does that mean it's a fact that it's not murder? No, it just means that it's my belief. The difference is that I don't claim my belief as fact. I've known people who have had abortions. Did they believe it was murdering an innocent life? No. So please don't try to parade your belief around as fact, because it's not.
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:58   #98
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Abortion was already old hat by the time they decided to sit down and write the Old Testament. HH
So was murder. Doesn't make it right.
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Old 11-17-2012, 17:45   #99
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Personally, I lean towards legal abortion for any reason during the first two trimesters, or until measurable brainwave activity from the fetus exists (usually week 22-24 or so). Third trimester abortions I would limit unless there is a significant risk to the health of mother (as opposed to any sort of imminent fear of death standard like Ireland).

Thanks for your candor on the topic!



Exceptions to this being minors, who I think should have access to abortion, but not without parental consent.
My opinion is, with your clearly articulated positions on abortion, it looks like you are good to go for when you get pregnant!
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Old 11-17-2012, 18:10   #100
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So was murder. Doesn't make it right.
Murder is well covered in the Old Testament, but there is nothing in there about abortion.

Why is that? Why does Norton continue to ignore this question?
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