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Old 11-16-2012, 10:12   #51
tsmo1066
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Originally Posted by Weiser 878 View Post
Pro abortion arguments for the health of the mother, or in case of rape or incest piss me off. If you're pro-life because of a religious belief, then don't pick and choose caveats; be pro-life no matter what.



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Yes, it's always so much more convenient and intellectually easy when you can arbitrarily force all those whose opinions differ from your own into little boxes with absolutist/extremist labels on them.

It must be frustrating as hell to have to deal with the reality that most people who oppose abortion are actually reasonable folks who exist in the reasonable middle ground and, in fact, agree with varying exceptions under which women should be able to terminate a pregnancy.

Believe it or not, the same reasonableness extends both ways! The majority of folks who label themselves "pro-choice" actually do believe in having some varying restrictions on abortions, such as banning late-term, partial birth abortions, etc.

Only a few extremists on the outer fringes of the debate actually buy into the "No abortions EVER" or "Unlimited abortion on demand, no matter what" arguments.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:28   #52
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Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
What do all the dead aborted babies matter in the context of this story?
Well they are dead because they were murdered.
It matters because though the story sounds tragic (It is a CNN story so I take what is reported with a grain of salt), millions of tragedies take place here and I don't see too many that posted in this thread upset about it.

Rather, you'll talk about the horrors of religion, flying cars, going back to the stone age. How exactly does that matter in the context of the listed story?
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:33   #53
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The bigger issue is the criminal liability. Procuring an unnecessary abortion means loss of medical licence and a 5 year jail term for the doctor. The mother faces life in prison. The law defining when an abortion is legal is so vague that in practice doctors routinely refuse to abort whatever the circumstances.

Edit for clarity: the 1992 court decision that abortion was legal if the mothers life was in peril was never put into legislation. No-one knows if it would protect doctrs or not.
And this is exactly what this story is about. It has nothing to do with the type of medical system or who pays for it. It has everything to do with archaic and ambiguous legislation. HH
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:14   #54
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Yes, it's always so much more convenient and intellectually easy when you can arbitrarily force all those whose opinions differ from your own into little boxes with absolutist/extremist labels on them.

It must be frustrating as hell to have to deal with the reality that most people who oppose abortion are actually reasonable folks who exist in the reasonable middle ground and, in fact, agree with varying exceptions under which women should be able to terminate a pregnancy.

Believe it or not, the same reasonableness extends both ways! The majority of folks who label themselves "pro-choice" actually do believe in having some varying restrictions on abortions, such as banning late-term, partial birth abortions, etc.

Only a few extremists on the outer fringes of the debate actually buy into the "No abortions EVER" or "Unlimited abortion on demand, no matter what" arguments.
This reminds me of a movie from a while back. I don't think it was ever released in theaters but it was about a group of college students that all lived together in a house. They had a drifter show up one night and invited him to dinner, got into an argument and wound up killing him.

After that they invited different "bad people" mostly characatures of conservatiges (the "gun toting redneck who can't wait to kill someone" for example) and would poison them at dinner after discussing the particular issue (gun control, religion, whatever the person's particular characteristic was). The last guy they had over was played by Ron Pearlman and was basically a spoof of Rush Limbaugh. He told them that he didn't actually believe the extreme stuff he said, such as that no abortion should ever be legal, or that no environmental laws should ever be passed. He only said it because he was trying to bring people to the moderate right, and he could only do it by acting like he was on the extreme right. Kind of like bending steel - to get a 90 degree bend, you have to bend it past 90 degrees so that it will have room to spring back.

I don't remember the name but it had Coutney B Vance and Cameron Diaz (before she was really famous) in it.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:20   #55
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Well they are dead because they were murdered.
It matters because though the story sounds tragic (It is a CNN story so I take what is reported with a grain of salt), millions of tragedies take place here and I don't see too many that posted in this thread upset about it.

Rather, you'll talk about the horrors of religion, flying cars, going back to the stone age. How exactly does that matter in the context of the listed story?
Want to take CNN with a grain of salt? Well how about your revered Faux News?

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/1...r-woman-death/

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11...daughter-dies/

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/1...king-abortion/
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:21   #56
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There are/were no laws limiting a Doctors ability to do what needs to be done to address a misscarriage.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:31   #57
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I don't remember the name but it had Coutney B Vance and Cameron Diaz (before she was really famous) in it.
"The Last Supper"
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:25   #58
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norton,

I think where the viability of a fetus is statistically improbable (as in this case), a medically induced abortion is a great thing, just like amputations to save someone's life can be a great thing, just like needle decompression might be great for dealing with certain types of pneumothorax.

Can you point out in this thread those responses that support your stated observation?

- G
G
I got the impression from some of the posts that we were overloaded with Pro Choice people in this thread. Maybe not. But it makes me sad to think that abortions are performed -for convenience-for birth control-A society that will not protect its most vulnerable is doomed.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:29   #59
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G
I got the impression from some of the posts that we were overloaded with Pro Choice people in this thread. Maybe not. But it makes me sad to think that abortions are performed -for convenience-for birth control-A society that will not protect its most vulnerable is doomed.
I'm not sure your impression is wrong. I'm not saying that everyone here thinks abortions should be 100% allowed for anything but, based on other threads, there are many who do, and others who think that it has to be legally a black-and-white issue (ie allowed or not, with no extenuating circumstances). Quite a few here do not seem to value human life.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:45   #60
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G
A society that will not protect its most vulnerable is doomed.
And I figured you'd be all for abortions.

Who doesn't like abortions? Pro-Life.
Who is generally Pro-Life? Conservatives/Republicans.
Who likes abortions? Pro-Choice.
Who is generally Pro-Choice? Democrats.
Who is going to get abortions, Democrats or Republicans? Democrats
What do abortions mean? Less Democrats.
If you guys ever want to win an election, you should be all for making abortions as legal as possible. Since you guys never get them anyways, it means less competition.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:49   #61
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Originally Posted by Sharkey View Post
Well they are dead because they were murdered.
It matters because though the story sounds tragic (It is a CNN story so I take what is reported with a grain of salt), millions of tragedies take place here and I don't see too many that posted in this thread upset about it.

Rather, you'll talk about the horrors of religion, flying cars, going back to the stone age. How exactly does that matter in the context of the listed story?

There is a bright line that can be drawn between the abortion issue and religion - particularly Christianity.

There is also a clear connection that can be made between "The Church" and suppression of science and discovery in a period preceding, during and after the Renaissance.

This is not to say Christianity is all bad. But it would be almost infantile for us if we couldn't speak of our strengths and weaknesses passionately, or dispassionately.

- G
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Old 11-16-2012, 13:06   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-Glock View Post
There are/were no laws limiting a Doctors ability to do what needs to be done to address a misscarriage.
That's simply not true. This story is proof.
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Old 11-16-2012, 13:07   #63
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Originally Posted by TK-421 View Post
And I figured you'd be all for abortions.

Who doesn't like abortions? Pro-Life.
Who is generally Pro-Life? Conservatives/Republicans.
Who likes abortions? Pro-Choice.
Who is generally Pro-Choice? Democrats.
Who is going to get abortions, Democrats or Republicans? Democrats
What do abortions mean? Less Democrats.
If you guys ever want to win an election, you should be all for making abortions as legal as possible. Since you guys never get them anyways, it means less competition.
You see though, it's all part of "the plan."

If the Conservatives hate abortion, the Libs will all want to support it and go have them. In 20 or 30 years...

sh## - I've said too much.
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Old 11-16-2012, 13:19   #64
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If their head of state was a female, and she was afflicted with the same condition as the deceased lady, what do you think the course of action would have been?
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Old 11-16-2012, 13:48   #65
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You see though, it's all part of "the plan."

If the Conservatives hate abortion, the Libs will all want to support it and go have them. In 20 or 30 years...

sh## - I've said too much.
Except that they're too busy arguing with the conservatives over whether it should be legal or not, and so they don't have the time to go get them. Plus with all the negative social-stigma that still surrounds it, they might not be as willing, for fear of any repercussions if their friends found out they had one done.

Take away the negative social-stigma that still permeates it, take away the anti-abortion crowds parading around with signs and chants in front of abortion clinics or planned parenthoods, and let them know they're able to have as many abortions as they want, and they're more likely to have abortions than they are now.
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Old 11-16-2012, 14:12   #66
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Originally Posted by Cali-Glock View Post
There are/were no laws limiting a Doctors ability to do what needs to be done to address a misscarriage.
Please read the story. HH
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Old 11-16-2012, 14:12   #67
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Want to take CNN with a grain of salt? Well how about your revered Faux News?
Dude, did I ever say I watch Fox News? Of course, I see where you are from and it all begins to make sense. If it pours salt in the wound, the female "newscasters" on Fox are way better looking than CNN or MSNBC.
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Old 11-16-2012, 14:16   #68
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If their head of state was a female, and she was afflicted with the same condition as the deceased lady, what do you think the course of action would have been?
Well, since we are dealing with hypotheticals, If their head of state was an androgynous atheist that flew in on a unicorn, what would the course of action have been?
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Old 11-16-2012, 15:44   #69
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All religion tries to bring people back into the stone ages. Religious laws like Sharia, and hard line anti-abortion laws like this do nothing but harm people.
Abortion predates Christianity, so pro-choice is more primitive than pro-life.
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Old 11-16-2012, 16:27   #70
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Perfect example of what would happen here if the anti-choice zealots got their way. Go GOP, overturn Roe vv.Wade.
Yea she would be better off living in the good ol US where women can murder unborn babies for any reason
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Old 11-16-2012, 16:29   #71
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Yea she would be better off living in the good ol US where women can murder unborn babies for any reason
At least she'd still be alive. HH
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Old 11-16-2012, 16:34   #72
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Just another reason not to mix religion and politics.
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Old 11-16-2012, 16:36   #73
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Just another reason not to mix religion and politics.
Full agreement here. HH
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Old 11-16-2012, 17:07   #74
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Dude, did I ever say I watch Fox News? Of course, I see where you are from and it all begins to make sense. If it pours salt in the wound, the female "newscasters" on Fox are way better looking than CNN or MSNBC.
Sure, you might think it matters where I live, but I'm not from here.

Besides, you specifically called out CNN and said you'd take the story with a grain of salt because of where it came from. Instead of calling out individual news stations, why don't you just accept the fact that all news stations are biased in one form or another, and all news stations need to be taken with a grain of salt.
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Old 11-16-2012, 17:17   #75
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Pro abortion arguments for the health of the mother, or in case of rape or incest piss me off. If you're pro-life because of a religious belief, then don't pick and choose caveats; be pro-life no matter what.



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I can understand the reasoning of not allowing abortion for rape/incest. In fact, if you start from the premise that a fertilized egg is a human being, it doesn't seem that rape or incest is enough to justify an abortion.

The health/life of the mother exception, is not inconsistent with the premise that a fetus is a person.

I am pro-choice, BTW.
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