[F14Scott]

Originally Posted by unit1069

Navy officer Lt. Kara Hultgren was rushed into the seat of a Tomcat to satifsy feminist ideological dictates and she lost her life. This abuse of legitimate womens' desire to contribute on par with men will be repeated with every Radical Left government we elect.

BTW, I knew Kara. She was a friend of mine, a class behind me at the RAG in 1992. She was a great person and a fine officer. She would easily be the exception to many of the generalities about women others and I have posted. She was smart, very big and strong, funny, humble, and she could dish it out as well as she could take it. Just a great addition to the ready room.

She was also a decent pilot, with a lot of hours in the EA-6B. What she wasn't, though, was a up-to-par Tomcat pilot at the boat (the very hardest flying gig in naval aviation). Her instructors and all of us students knew it, just as we all knew about all of our own strengths and weaknesses. The instructors tried to DQ her, but the senior navy leadership, under political pressure to put women in the cockpit, gave her extra remediation and training until she managed to scrape over the bar. If she were a man, she would have washed out, as many of her peers did.

On that day behind Lincoln, the Navy's attempt at gender integration killed her and almost killed her RIO, who ejected 0.4 seconds before she did and lived. She had skidded a wrapped-up start at her pass, blanking and snuffing her port motor, and had then frozen at the controls, failing to execute the proper single-engine waveoff flyaway procedures. She was in over her head in that jet.

She was a great gal, and the world is a lesser place without her.

[CBennett]

Ive ALWAYS thought that for ANY combat MOS that the Physical requirements should be EXACTLY THE SAME...no womens set and mens set....you can either pass them or you cant..if you cant you get recycled or have the option to go to a new NON-combat MOS or get a general discharge that can become honorable after a certain time. But if you cant meet 1 set of standards GT*O!

[pizza_pablo]

Originally Posted by AK_Stick

Reading has never been one of your strong suites eh?

JERK!
I didn't go thru the entire thread. Just threw in my 2 pennies and split.

[AngryPanda]

I can think of several women I would rather take to a fight than most of you jokes.

[fnfalman]

So...two chicks out of two chicks that made the attempt didn't make it. Big deal.

[Big Bird]

Originally Posted by fnfalman

So...two chicks out of two chicks that made the attempt didn't make it. Big deal.

If you read the article it also says they haven't been able to find any more volunteers to continue the test.

[fnfalman]

Originally Posted by Big Bird

If you read the article it also says they haven't been able to find any more volunteers to continue the test.

I read the article.

If there are no more officer chicks sign up to do the course, then there are no more officer chicks sign up to do the course.

No big deal one way or another.

[Chuck TX]

Four pages and nobody asked if they are hot?

[Diesel McBadass]

The way military judges upper body strentgh is a joke. Amount of push ups is a stupid test. I know tiny guys who can do a million push ups but barely bench the bar. How about tests with set amounts of weight?

[Paul7]

Originally Posted by F14Scott

BTW, I knew Kara. She was a friend of mine, a class behind me at the RAG in 1992. She was a great person and a fine officer. She would easily be the exception to many of the generalities about women others and I have posted. She was smart, very big and strong, funny, humble, and she could dish it out as well as she could take it. Just a great addition to the ready room.

She was also a decent pilot, with a lot of hours in the EA-6B. What she wasn't, though, was a up-to-par Tomcat pilot at the boat (the very hardest flying gig in naval aviation). Her instructors and all of us students knew it, just as we all knew about all of our own strengths and weaknesses. The instructors tried to DQ her, but the senior navy leadership, under political pressure to put women in the cockpit, gave her extra remediation and training until she managed to scrape over the bar. If she were a man, she would have washed out, as many of her peers did.

On that day behind Lincoln, the Navy's attempt at gender integration killed her and almost killed her RIO, who ejected 0.4 seconds before she did and lived. She had skidded a wrapped-up start at her pass, blanking and snuffing her port motor, and had then frozen at the controls, failing to execute the proper single-engine waveoff flyaway procedures. She was in over her head in that jet.

She was a great gal, and the world is a lesser place without her.

Political correctness kills.

People here can cite exceptions of great, qualified women combat soldiers, but that's what they are, exceptions.

[Big Bird]

Originally Posted by Diesel McBadass

The way military judges upper body strentgh is a joke. Amount of push ups is a stupid test. I know tiny guys who can do a million push ups but barely bench the bar. How about tests with set amounts of weight?

Marines also do pull-ups.

[aplcr0331]

Originally Posted by AngryPanda

I can think of several women I would rather take to a fight than most of you jokes.

What kind of fight? Are we talking trigger pulling fights? Hand to hand?

I've served in three branches of the military for the last 14 years and I've never met a woman I'd rather have in a fight over a male military member. But, there are probably some exceptions out there.

For the record I think that women should be given every opportunity at all combat MOS's. I'm a big fan of unintended consequences. Those are my favorite. Let them try everything they want. Heavy Machinegunner? Have at it. Foot Soldier? Kickass. Ranger...pass the indoc. SF? By all means. Lets see what happens.

[Carrys]

Originally Posted by Paul7

Political correctness kills.

People here can cite exceptions of great, qualified women combat soldiers, but that's what they are, exceptions.

Now you've done it.

How dare you speak the truth?

People don't want to know/hear the truth, they would much rather live their dreams.

[AK_Stick]

Originally Posted by Diesel McBadass

The way military judges upper body strentgh is a joke. Amount of push ups is a stupid test. I know tiny guys who can do a million push ups but barely bench the bar. How about tests with set amounts of weight?

Those are the basics, most infantry/combat arms units have more stringent/extra requirements.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Regarding women having superior reflexes and motor skills: is this why sports like ipsc and bowling have separate gender leagues- to protect the men from getting thrashed?

Give me a break. The story about the f14 fatality is infuriating. As a civilian pilot, I have seen the same PC garbage. Lowering standards for any protected group is immoral. It's unfair to the people who they put at risk, and to the people who have to pull their slack. If a woman can meet the bar, great. If not, do something else, and quit blowing smoke about nonsensical female ninja-skills. Somebody has been watching too many movies.

[acorn42047]

Originally Posted by tsmo1066

Swimming is obviously critical for a SEAL. When's the last time you saw an infantryman save his ass in a firefight by dropping and doing 20 pushups, however?

You are assuming that the current PT standards, standards that ignore critical traits like hand-eye coordination and reaction time, are the be-all and end-all of measuring infantry potential.

I don't think they are.

Personally, I feel that the military PT standards are long overdue to be shifted to a system that stresses overall physical conditioning as well as fine motor skills and coordination, rather than just upper body strength and the ability to crank out sit-ups.

I see your argument and it has a some merit. While a woman has better fine motor skills which is a factor in marksmanship, infantry Soldiers do not appear in combat fire a few well placed shots and disappear. They hump their gear in dig foxholes and fight for hours on end with little to no sleep (and many of them are expert marksmen). Infantry school is not just about push ups and sit ups, it's about pushing your body to the breaking point.

I will go on record as saying if women can meet the same standard as men they should be able to participate in anything.

[Carrys]

Originally Posted by acorn42047

I will go on record as saying if women can meet the same standard as men they should be able to participate in anything.

Well, that's just it....they can't.

It's only in some folks dreams/desires/wishes that they can hold up an end like men. They are allowed to do so simply because it sooths the desires of some people. They want to think women can do anything and that they "don't need men"....something certain women (and some men) have been thinking for a long time.

I mean, some folk have the envy indeed.

[Paul7]

Originally Posted by Carrys

Now you've done it.

How dare you speak the truth?

People don't want to know/hear the truth, they would much rather live their dreams.

Another instance of political correctness killing is the Ft. Hood shooting, where nobody called out the Muslim who was making treasonous statements. Can't criticize a Muslim, don't you see.....

Perhaps next the PC crowd can get the NFL to take women.

[tsmo1066]

Originally Posted by acorn42047

I see your argument and it has a some merit. While a woman has better fine motor skills which is a factor in marksmanship, infantry Soldiers do not appear in combat fire a few well placed shots and disappear. They hump their gear in dig foxholes and fight for hours on end with little to no sleep (and many of them are expert marksmen). Infantry school is not just about push ups and sit ups, it's about pushing your body to the breaking point.

I will go on record as saying if women can meet the same standard as men they should be able to participate in anything.

Just for clarification, when I discuss the need for improvement in current military PT standards, I am discussing the need to shift away from the "push-up/sit-up" evaluations and look more into true strength and endurance training.

As another poster mentioned earlier, the ability to crank out push ups does not even really translate into any sort of meaningful measure of upper body strength. There are plenty of small men with very weak upper bodies who can crank out push-ups all day long simply by virtue of having no real chest mass to lift in the first place.

The current PT standards exist primarily because they are EASY TO MEASURE and can be readily evaluated and tracked across large numbers of people with very little expense and effort.

A more meaningful training and fitness program for the military would be one that combines total body conditioning (to include flexibility and core performance endurance) with targeted strength training that uses weights and employs progressive goals and lifting targets - and I absolutely agree with pushing the body to its breaking point as part of such a training program in order to strive for those lifting and endurance targets and goals.

Of course such a system would be far more expensive to implement and would require a much greater investment in training time for the NCOs and unit leaders responsible for administering such training, so it is very doubtful such an extreme conversion will happen anytime soon.

[aplcr0331]

Originally Posted by tsmo1066

A more meaningful training and fitness program for the military would be one that combines total body conditioning (to include flexibility and core performance endurance) with targeted strength training that uses weights and employs progressive goals and lifting targets - and I absolutely agree with pushing the body to its breaking point as part of such a training program in order to strive for those lifting and endurance targets and goals.

Of course such a system would be far more expensive to implement and would require a much greater investment in training time for the NCOs and unit leaders responsible for administering such training, so it is very doubtful such an extreme conversion will happen anytime soon.

You should want people fit to fight. Train in combat readiness type tasks. Who care's who is good at exercising. Welcome to the Marine Corps CFT:

The CFT consists of three events: an 880 yard run, ammo can lifts, and manuever under fire:

880 Yard Run. Marines will run for 880 yards while wearing boots and camouflage uniform (pants and t-shirt).

Ammo Can Lifts. Marines will lift a 30 pound ammo can from the ground, over their heads as many times as they can in two minutes.

Manuever Under Fire. Marines must move through a 300 yard course, and perform designated tasks, in the time limit authorized. The tasks include:

• Moving in a quick scurry for 10 yards, then a high craw for another 15 yards.
• Drag a casualty for 10 yards, while zigzagging through several cones. Then lift the casualty and carry him/her at a run for 65 yards.
• Carry two 30-pound ammo cans for 75 yards, while zigzagging through a series of cones.
• Toss a dummy grenade 22 1/2 yards and land it in a marked target circle.
• Perform three push-ups, pick up the two 30-pound cans and sprint to the finish line.

Scoring.....

Same as for the PFT. Different pass/fail/score rates for the sexes.

[MulletLoad]

Originally Posted by unit1069

Navy officer Lt. Kara Hultgren was rushed into the seat of a Tomcat to satifsy feminist ideological dictates and she lost her life. This abuse of legitimate womens' desire to contribute on par with men will be repeated with every Radical Left government we elect.

Then there is the ideologiocal dictates of an Admiral's son getting into the seat of an F14 and then proceeds to shoot down a USAF RF-4C.

I think the guy was also promoted to Admiral or something recently.

[Peace Warrior]

Originally Posted by MulletLoad

Then there is the ideologiocal dictates of an Admiral's son getting into the seat of an F14 and then proceeds to shoot down a USAF RF-4C.

I think the guy was also promoted to Admiral or something recently.

I think my brother (USAF) was working radar in the area (maybe on an AWACS) when this one occurred.

The AF brass was extremely pissed. The Tomcat pilot's dad was said to have shot down a friendly while flying over Vietnam. (If the latter is true, I guess the apple really doesn't fall too far from the tree.)

[Tx-SIG229]

nope, can't ever recall seeing an infantry OFFICER humping anything heavy out in the field other then their own rucksack... why would a female infantry officer carry anything heavy?

[arclight610]

Originally Posted by aplcr0331

You should want people fit to fight. Train in combat readiness type tasks. Who care's who is good at exercising. Welcome to the Marine Corps CFT:

The CFT consists of three events: an 880 yard run, ammo can lifts, and manuever under fire:

880 Yard Run. Marines will run for 880 yards while wearing boots and camouflage uniform (pants and t-shirt).

Ammo Can Lifts. Marines will lift a 30 pound ammo can from the ground, over their heads as many times as they can in two minutes.

Manuever Under Fire. Marines must move through a 300 yard course, and perform designated tasks, in the time limit authorized. The tasks include:

• Moving in a quick scurry for 10 yards, then a high craw for another 15 yards.
• Drag a casualty for 10 yards, while zigzagging through several cones. Then lift the casualty and carry him/her at a run for 65 yards.
• Carry two 30-pound ammo cans for 75 yards, while zigzagging through a series of cones.
• Toss a dummy grenade 22 1/2 yards and land it in a marked target circle.
• Perform three push-ups, pick up the two 30-pound cans and sprint to the finish line.

Scoring.....

Same as for the PFT. Different pass/fail/score rates for the sexes.

The ammo can presses and manuever under fire separate the men from the boys. I always ended up missing the grenade though.

[reelnative]

yea put a lady in every fox hole nothing better to get the men motavated then a blow job before battle, but really the only reason ladies get into battle is when theres no more men to fight, get real people this liberal everyone gets a prize cause they played crap has to come to an end, face it we are diff then each other and everyone has there place a test is a test and if you cant pass it well then you loose theres nothing wrong with being second,