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Old 11-21-2012, 12:10   #61
gatorboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packinaglock View Post
I really want to check out a S&W M&P 45c, I keep hearing they are the same size as a G19. But have yet to hold one or even see one.
Check them out, The 45C is almost exactly the size of the 19, a bit heavier but very substantial feeling also. Frame and slide are heavier, nice balance. Actually carries better than my 23 for some reason. Think the frame and slide are the same width as opposed to the wider frame, thinner slide of the small frame Glocks. The large frame Glocks are pretty even also but wider.

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Originally Posted by Tkz View Post
So is the G36 also.
It's thin but front to back on grip is long. The 6+1 Kahr P45 is much smaller in the grip, lighter, same barrel length and slide 1/2" shorter behind breech face. The 45C has much better ergonomics (have not met a single person who disagree's) and is 8+1 as a bonus. It is a slightly larger gun in all aspects but grip length. I have all three and carry my 36 slide on 29 frame with 30 mags or the P45 over the complete 36 without exception. It's nice being able to use 9,10 and 13 rd. mags with the 36 on top!

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Originally Posted by SGT45 View Post
.45 GAP is $10.00 less a case then .45 ACP on state bid. I just ordered both for our PD.
Why both? Does SWAT use ACP and patrol GAP or is there a choice? Seems there are better platforms for undercover considering all but the 36 have fat slides.
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Old 11-21-2012, 16:28   #62
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Interesting if they do go to .45 ACP in the future though.. I am not sure how good the GAP round is as I have no experience with it but I was told by the instructor at my Glock Armorer's class that it is "a tack driver" and pretty accurate. Are they using Speer Gold Dots???

How has the round performed for them?

Would they change for budgetary reasons or are they looking for performance?
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:52   #63
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http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp...e-Shootout.pdf

Found this on another website. more fuel for the caliber debate
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:51   #64
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I have seen that same report before and to be honest it is why I no longer buy Gold Dots. I experienced some failure to expand out of the Gold Dots about that same time out of a different caliber. I will say in my opinion a 9/45/357 that penetrated that shallow and didn't expand probably wouldn't have made a difference.
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Old 11-22-2012, 13:04   #65
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I'm always interested in police department's caliber choices. We transitioned from .40 to the .45 acp this past year. It was a long journey with extensive testing.
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Old 11-22-2012, 13:47   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blkt6 View Post
http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp...e-Shootout.pdf

Found this on another website. more fuel for the caliber debate
Wow !
Who would have believed that was possibe
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Old 11-22-2012, 16:50   #67
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Originally Posted by "Cold Dead Hands" ! View Post
Wow !
Who would have believed that was possibe

It can happen with any pistol caliber and Gold Dot is one of the best rounds available. Shot Placement Matters.
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Old 11-22-2012, 17:12   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by "Cold Dead Hands" ! View Post
Since Cops open carry, and can carry extra full magazines.
A Glock 21's 13 rounds would be some great firepower.
45acp's also have better stopping power than the 45 Gap, due to more room for gunpowder.
Their all good choices, 9mm, .40's, .357 Sig.
But, if I was a Cop, open carrying, I would choose a G21.
Then carry a G19, G23 or G32 off duty.
If it was me id choose the 20 for duty and 29 for off duty
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Old 11-22-2012, 17:20   #69
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The sp here in Fl like their 37's, at least the ones I know say they do. Our county pd issues the gen 4 22,23,27 and like them alot. They are currently testin the fn 40's now and most would rather keep the glocks.
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Old 11-22-2012, 17:57   #70
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Originally Posted by dvrdwn72 View Post
If it was me id choose the 20 for duty and 29 for off duty

Many have trouble shooting the G22. Scores would surely drop with the G20 and very few could qualify with the G29.
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Old 11-22-2012, 17:58   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBP55 View Post
It can happen with any pistol caliber and Gold Dot is one of the best rounds available. Shot Placement Matters.

I downloaded the PDF file and briefly skimmed it.

  • Shot placement does not count if rounds are only penetrating 1" deep into the thoracic cavity.

  • Dude had a ruptured aorta and a destroyed lung, and they had to "fight him" to cuff him? And he already had a broken femur and a shattered hip as well as a bullet lodged in his throat and THIRTEEN other rounds that went thru his body as well as another 4-6 that were in him?
That dude was the outlier/exception to the rule. The only way he was going down in that instant, in that instance, was to shut the lights off (direct CNS hit, opening his head up and spreading brain matter all over; or a brain stem hit).

Last edited by Gallium; 11-22-2012 at 17:59..
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Old 11-22-2012, 19:03   #72
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Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
I downloaded the PDF file and briefly skimmed it.

  • Shot placement does not count if rounds are only penetrating 1" deep into the thoracic cavity.

  • Dude had a ruptured aorta and a destroyed lung, and they had to "fight him" to cuff him? And he already had a broken femur and a shattered hip as well as a bullet lodged in his throat and THIRTEEN other rounds that went thru his body as well as another 4-6 that were in him?
That dude was the outlier/exception to the rule. The only way he was going down in that instant, in that instance, was to shut the lights off (direct CNS hit, opening his head up and spreading brain matter all over; or a brain stem hit).
The rounds didn't only penetrate 1". That was misinformation/a typo in the original ME report. There are several expanded bullets in the x-ray photographs; full expansion is simply impossible with only an inch of penetration. The FBI testing concluded the pistol rounds performed to standard.
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Old 11-22-2012, 19:21   #73
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Originally Posted by rockapede View Post
The rounds didn't only penetrate 1". That was misinformation/a typo in the original ME report. There are several expanded bullets in the x-ray photographs; full expansion is simply impossible with only an inch of penetration. The FBI testing concluded the pistol rounds performed to standard.
Ok. I have the file on my phone, so viewing is limited (the JHPs).

Good to hear the bullets performed to specification. Unfortunately, anyone who takes that many hits, including a hit to the aorta AND a lung... and is offering resistance to being handcuffed, that is a determined MF right there. I want to be the dude reading about it on the web instead of being the dude confronting that dude with a pistol.

Thank you for the clarification.

- G
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Old 11-22-2012, 19:23   #74
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Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
Ok. I have the file on my phone, so viewing is limited (the JHPs).

Good to hear the bullets performed to specification. Unfortunately, anyone who takes that many hits, including a hit to the aorta AND a lung... and is offering resistance to being handcuffed, that is a determined MF right there. I want to be the dude reading about it on the web instead of being the dude confronting that dude with a pistol.

Thank you for the clarification.

- G
No problem. The presentation is laid out in such a way that it's misleading, although I don't think that was intentional.
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Old 11-22-2012, 23:23   #75
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Originally Posted by PattonT View Post
That is because the ammo is being discontinued!




J/k! Were those from the same manufacturer and same style?
Yes, Federal FMJ's. Same price for the Gold Dots in both calibers.
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:15   #76
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I've heard this rumor at a gun shop in Honesdale PA. The reason was getting ammo for officers to shoot on their own time. The .45 G.A.P. has a very good track record with the NYSP. The 200 grain Gold Dot has proven to expand in these OIS. From actual tests the .45 G.A.P. performed better than the .40 S&W. The Gen 4 G21 would be my choice, however, the G37 has a smaller grip and easier for smaller officers to shoot. Troopers do like the G37, some even say it recoils the same as the G17 and more accurate.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:43   #77
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Originally Posted by hunter won View Post
I've heard this rumor at a gun shop in Honesdale PA. The reason was getting ammo for officers to shoot on their own time. The .45 G.A.P. has a very good track record with the NYSP. The 200 grain Gold Dot has proven to expand in these OIS. From actual tests the .45 G.A.P. performed better than the .40 S&W. The Gen 4 G21 would be my choice, however, the G37 has a smaller grip and easier for smaller officers to shoot. Troopers do like the G37, some even say it recoils the same as the G17 and more accurate.
Link to the ammunition test?
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Old 11-30-2012, 00:07   #78
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Got this from my uncle at my grandmother's funeral a year ago. His son (my cousin) is a firearms instructor for PSP. He doesn't like the GAP because sometimes it fails to feed. My cousin feels it is because it is a short fat stubby round. That has been his experience with the 45GAP, he doesn't like it, as he says "my girls must work every time"
FWIW
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Old 11-30-2012, 00:44   #79
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If they're going to switch to anything, why wouldn't they switch to .357 Sig? Better barrier penetration than .45, if I remember right. And more rounds.

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No.

Nothing toward the PSP in particular. I just cant stand that everytime some PD talks about switching calibers everyone wants to jump on the band wagon. LIke the PD is the final word on caliber. It's usually just because they got a new captain or cheif and they need to justify their job.

And come on. They are "testing" a G21 45acp? LIke the 21 or the 45acp has not been proven over an over already.
And I can't stand when people who know they'll just complain about the subject, still go in the thread.
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:48   #80
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I would imagine the Penn State cop-chicks would have something to say about switching to a larger caliber being that they are of the lowest common denominator and any male dominated line of work.
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