[jdw174]

Originally Posted by District18

I feel bad for all those Troopers who bought back up GAPs.

Isn't true that PSP are only permitted to fire authorized ammunition from their duty pistol?

Unless things have changed...and I doubt it...only issued ammo is authorized in the duty weapon.

[bmoore]

Cool. Like an idiot I sold my 2004 G21 (light primer strikes). But totally redeemed myself with a G20SF.

[packinaglock]

Originally Posted by "Cold Dead Hands" !

Yep, your right on.
But, I was just holding a S&W M&P45 a hour ago, and it felt good.
About the same size as a M&P40.
4.5" barrel, 10 round mags.
It feels much smaller than the G21.
It's a full size gun, but streamlined enough to carry easily.
Most of all, it has a 4.5" barrel, like the G21, which gives a big 230gr bullet enough speed to do the job.

I really want to check out a S&W M&P 45c, I keep hearing they are the same size as a G19. But have yet to hold one or even see one.

["Cold Dead Hands" !]

Originally Posted by packinaglock

I really want to check out a S&W M&P 45c, I keep hearing they are the same size as a G19. But have yet to hold one or even see one.

Yeah, you got to hold one side by side, one in each hand.
The G19,23,32 are the perfect size, all around guns.
But the S&W M&P9 or .40 or 45 are not much bigger, and are all 9mm size frames.
And if you want a full size .45, that's still small enough to carry, this M&P45 is nice.
A friend of mine, a life long, die-hard .45acp, 1911 only owner.
I tried to talk him into a polymer gun for lighter weight carry.
He tried them all, but only liked the M&P45 with 4.5"barrel.
M&P's are not quite as good as Glocks.
But this M&P45 is just the right size, for a full size .45 that's still easy to conceal carry.
Why, because it's a full size 45 stuffed into a 9mm size frame !

[DFin]

Considering the similar ballistics of both rounds it would be a total waste of tax payer money for the PSP to buy new G-21's for the entire dept. They only started issuing the G-37's about 4 or 5 years ago.

[Tkz]

Originally Posted by packinaglock

I really want to check out a S&W M&P 45c, I keep hearing they are the same size as a G19. But have yet to hold one or even see one.

So is the G36 also.

[SGT45]

This is not happening in the near future, maybe a few years, but not now with the way the economy is going. I have had contact with numerous troopers, They know nothing about this. They offered;

1. PA has a large deficit and financial problems, can't substantiate cost of new holsters, Mag. Pouches, Magazines etc.
2. Nothing wrong with their present G37's.
3. They appear to like the G37 and have had excellent results in Trooper involved shootings.
4. They have ammo!!!!!
5. .45 GAP is $10.00 less a case then .45 ACP on state bid. I just ordered both for our PD.

[dkf]

Originally Posted by SGT45

This is not happening in the near future, maybe a few years, but not now with the way the economy is going. I have had contact with numerous troopers, They know nothing about this. They offered;

1. PA has a large deficit and financial problems, can't substantiate cost of new holsters, Mag. Pouches, Magazines etc.
2. Nothing wrong with their present G37's.
3. They appear to like the G37 and have had excellent results in Trooper involved shootings.
4. They have ammo!!!!!
5. .45 GAP is $10.00 less a case then .45 ACP on state bid. I just ordered both for our PD.

Thanks for the info.

Wasn't expecting the GAP to be cheaper but really it should be. Cheaper small pistol primer, less brass for the case and less powder.

[gatorboy]

Originally Posted by SiberianErik

Oh hell, just issue DE in .50AE and be done with it. While we are at it swap out the .22 varmint rifle AR's and go w/ a solid .375 H&H. Now when someone gets popped there will be no lame trip to the ER.

This I agree with.

[PattonT]

Originally Posted by SGT45

5. .45 GAP is $10.00 less a case then .45 ACP on state bid. I just ordered both for our PD.

That is because the ammo is being discontinued!




J/k! Were those from the same manufacturer and same style?

[gatorboy]

Originally Posted by packinaglock

I really want to check out a S&W M&P 45c, I keep hearing they are the same size as a G19. But have yet to hold one or even see one.

Check them out, The 45C is almost exactly the size of the 19, a bit heavier but very substantial feeling also. Frame and slide are heavier, nice balance. Actually carries better than my 23 for some reason. Think the frame and slide are the same width as opposed to the wider frame, thinner slide of the small frame Glocks. The large frame Glocks are pretty even also but wider.

Originally Posted by Tkz

So is the G36 also.

It's thin but front to back on grip is long. The 6+1 Kahr P45 is much smaller in the grip, lighter, same barrel length and slide 1/2" shorter behind breech face. The 45C has much better ergonomics (have not met a single person who disagree's) and is 8+1 as a bonus. It is a slightly larger gun in all aspects but grip length. I have all three and carry my 36 slide on 29 frame with 30 mags or the P45 over the complete 36 without exception. It's nice being able to use 9,10 and 13 rd. mags with the 36 on top!

Originally Posted by SGT45

.45 GAP is $10.00 less a case then .45 ACP on state bid. I just ordered both for our PD.

Why both? Does SWAT use ACP and patrol GAP or is there a choice? Seems there are better platforms for undercover considering all but the 36 have fat slides.

[pag23]

Interesting if they do go to .45 ACP in the future though.. I am not sure how good the GAP round is as I have no experience with it but I was told by the instructor at my Glock Armorer's class that it is "a tack driver" and pretty accurate. Are they using Speer Gold Dots???

How has the round performed for them?

Would they change for budgetary reasons or are they looking for performance?

[blkt6]

http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp...e-Shootout.pdf

Found this on another website. more fuel for the caliber debate

[PattonT]

I have seen that same report before and to be honest it is why I no longer buy Gold Dots. I experienced some failure to expand out of the Gold Dots about that same time out of a different caliber. I will say in my opinion a 9/45/357 that penetrated that shallow and didn't expand probably wouldn't have made a difference.

[denn1911]

I'm always interested in police department's caliber choices. We transitioned from .40 to the .45 acp this past year. It was a long journey with extensive testing.

["Cold Dead Hands" !]

Originally Posted by blkt6

http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp...e-Shootout.pdf

Found this on another website. more fuel for the caliber debate

Wow !
Who would have believed that was possibe

[JBP55]

Originally Posted by "Cold Dead Hands" !

Wow !
Who would have believed that was possibe

It can happen with any pistol caliber and Gold Dot is one of the best rounds available. Shot Placement Matters.

[dvrdwn72]

Originally Posted by "Cold Dead Hands" !

Since Cops open carry, and can carry extra full magazines.
A Glock 21's 13 rounds would be some great firepower.
45acp's also have better stopping power than the 45 Gap, due to more room for gunpowder.
Their all good choices, 9mm, .40's, .357 Sig.
But, if I was a Cop, open carrying, I would choose a G21.
Then carry a G19, G23 or G32 off duty.

If it was me id choose the 20 for duty and 29 for off duty

[dvrdwn72]

The sp here in Fl like their 37's, at least the ones I know say they do. Our county pd issues the gen 4 22,23,27 and like them alot. They are currently testin the fn 40's now and most would rather keep the glocks.

[JBP55]

Originally Posted by dvrdwn72

If it was me id choose the 20 for duty and 29 for off duty

Many have trouble shooting the G22. Scores would surely drop with the G20 and very few could qualify with the G29.

[Gallium]

Originally Posted by JBP55

It can happen with any pistol caliber and Gold Dot is one of the best rounds available. Shot Placement Matters.

I downloaded the PDF file and briefly skimmed it.

• Shot placement does not count if rounds are only penetrating 1" deep into the thoracic cavity.

• Dude had a ruptured aorta and a destroyed lung, and they had to "fight him" to cuff him? And he already had a broken femur and a shattered hip as well as a bullet lodged in his throat and THIRTEEN other rounds that went thru his body as well as another 4-6 that were in him?

That dude was the outlier/exception to the rule. The only way he was going down in that instant, in that instance, was to shut the lights off (direct CNS hit, opening his head up and spreading brain matter all over; or a brain stem hit).

[rockapede]

Originally Posted by Gallium

I downloaded the PDF file and briefly skimmed it.

• Shot placement does not count if rounds are only penetrating 1" deep into the thoracic cavity.

• Dude had a ruptured aorta and a destroyed lung, and they had to "fight him" to cuff him? And he already had a broken femur and a shattered hip as well as a bullet lodged in his throat and THIRTEEN other rounds that went thru his body as well as another 4-6 that were in him?

That dude was the outlier/exception to the rule. The only way he was going down in that instant, in that instance, was to shut the lights off (direct CNS hit, opening his head up and spreading brain matter all over; or a brain stem hit).

The rounds didn't only penetrate 1". That was misinformation/a typo in the original ME report. There are several expanded bullets in the x-ray photographs; full expansion is simply impossible with only an inch of penetration. The FBI testing concluded the pistol rounds performed to standard.

[Gallium]

Originally Posted by rockapede

The rounds didn't only penetrate 1". That was misinformation/a typo in the original ME report. There are several expanded bullets in the x-ray photographs; full expansion is simply impossible with only an inch of penetration. The FBI testing concluded the pistol rounds performed to standard.

Ok. I have the file on my phone, so viewing is limited (the JHPs).

Good to hear the bullets performed to specification. Unfortunately, anyone who takes that many hits, including a hit to the aorta AND a lung... and is offering resistance to being handcuffed, that is a determined MF right there. I want to be the dude reading about it on the web instead of being the dude confronting that dude with a pistol.

Thank you for the clarification.

- G

[rockapede]

Originally Posted by Gallium

Ok. I have the file on my phone, so viewing is limited (the JHPs).

Good to hear the bullets performed to specification. Unfortunately, anyone who takes that many hits, including a hit to the aorta AND a lung... and is offering resistance to being handcuffed, that is a determined MF right there. I want to be the dude reading about it on the web instead of being the dude confronting that dude with a pistol.

Thank you for the clarification.

- G

No problem. The presentation is laid out in such a way that it's misleading, although I don't think that was intentional.

[SGT45]

Originally Posted by PattonT

That is because the ammo is being discontinued!




J/k! Were those from the same manufacturer and same style?

Yes, Federal FMJ's. Same price for the Gold Dots in both calibers.