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Old 11-14-2012, 16:35   #26
Bruce M
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Originally Posted by PattonT View Post
... I will say that agencies that seek the CALEA accreditation can't have service weapons older than 4 yrs so if they update to new handguns they may as well switch.
Good thing they never look at "KF" date coded USP.

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what department uses the G21s ? or is individual officer choice ? thanks
One of the large agencies now issues a G17 but allows officers a G21 they purchase themselves.

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Old 11-14-2012, 16:41   #27
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Here in DE (pa neighbor) the state police carry 229's in 357 SIG.
I'd love to get my hands on an agency trade-in.
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Old 11-14-2012, 16:46   #28
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Massachusetts State Police have ordered 2,500 S&W M&P pistols in .45 and Vermont State Police are having theirs in .40. I know a lot of people think Glocks are ugly but I have never cared for the M&Ps.
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Old 11-14-2012, 17:18   #29
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They Beretta 96 with robar finish for a while then went to the 96 with the heavey slide in 40 cal and they were D models
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Old 11-14-2012, 17:25   #30
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The DOT guy I talked with was a gun type guy most are not . I told him about Glock talk he didnt know about it . He said the PSP had some shooting up their when they had 40 cal and the Win 180 didnt didnt work as good as they wanted . When the bad guy was in surgery the had to go in with him he said wnen those 40 were dug out they looked like you could reuse them. the 45 gap has been better . I think their gap guns are maybe about 6 to 8 years old
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Old 11-14-2012, 17:41   #31
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The DOT guy I talked with was a gun type guy most are not . I told him about Glock talk he didnt know about it . He said the PSP had some shooting up their when they had 40 cal and the Win 180 didnt didnt work as good as they wanted . When the bad guy was in surgery the had to go in with him he said wnen those 40 were dug out they looked like you could reuse them. the 45 gap has been better . I think their gap guns are maybe about 6 to 8 years old


They changed calibers over ammunition not expanding in 1 shooting?
Sounds like an ammunition issue, not a caliber issue. They do not always expand as expected.

Last edited by JBP55; 11-14-2012 at 17:42..
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Old 11-14-2012, 19:18   #32
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What I heard is that the state police needed new guns to replace their worn out ones and for the new troopers that they were hiring. Beretta was no longer going to make the 96D. State Police were happy with the .40 S&W performance. They chose Glock and Glock offered them a better deal if they adopted the .45 GAP. That's just what I heard, who knows if it's true or not.
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Old 11-15-2012, 14:16   #33
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Blah, blah, blah, who gives a crap what the PA state police are doing
I do.
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Old 11-15-2012, 18:00   #34
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Their was more than one shooting with this ammo and poor stoping power. And they could not get the Beretta 96 D anymore so Glock it was . I Smith gets wind they may give their MP 45 to them.
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Old 11-15-2012, 18:54   #35
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Their was more than one shooting with this ammo and poor stoping power. And they could not get the Beretta 96 D anymore so Glock it was . I Smith gets wind they may give their MP 45 to them.

The .40 works pretty well in most of the USA. Shot placement?
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Old 11-15-2012, 21:22   #36
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Their was more than one shooting with this ammo and poor stoping power. And they could not get the Beretta 96 D anymore so Glock it was . I Smith gets wind they may give their MP 45 to them.
There is negligible difference between .45gap and .45acp in ballistics, in fact several .45gap loads mimic some .45acp loads. The gap even uses the same bullets as the .45acp. There is +P in .45acp but that only slightly more velocity which does not mean much. Chances are that "failure" would have happened whether it was .45gap or .45acp.
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Old 11-15-2012, 21:54   #37
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Since Cops open carry, and can carry extra full magazines.
A Glock 21's 13 rounds would be some great firepower.
45acp's also have better stopping power than the 45 Gap, due to more room for gunpowder.
Their all good choices, 9mm, .40's, .357 Sig.
But, if I was a Cop, open carrying, I would choose a G21.
Then carry a G19, G23 or G32 off duty.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:49   #38
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jdw174.....sent you a pm.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:34   #39
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Blah, blah, blah, who gives a crap what the PA state police are doing
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I do.
I do too.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:41   #40
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Blah, blah, blah, who gives a crap what the PA state police are doing
I do. If you're just going to be a jerk, don't post in the thread. I happen to like threads like this. I personally don't enjoy how every third thread in GT these days is about atheism, abortion, gay people, or socialists and which one is ruining the country this week, but I'm not conceited enough to think every single thread on a discussion forum is going to be something I personally want to talk about.

OP: I think .45 ACP is a wiser choice than .45 GAP. I think the GAP was a pretty cool idea, but support for it makes .357 SIG and 10mm look mainstream. Logistically speaking, the .45 ACP makes a lot more sense.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:25   #41
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I feel bad for all those Troopers who bought back up GAPs.

Isn't true that PSP are only permitted to fire authorized ammunition from their duty pistol?
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Old 11-18-2012, 13:06   #42
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Wish Glock would make a 45acp the same size as the S&W M&P full size double-stack
It's smaller than the G21 and easier to conceal carry.

Last edited by "Cold Dead Hands" !; 11-18-2012 at 13:08..
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Old 11-18-2012, 15:24   #43
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They have been saying they are switching for about two years now. I don't foresee it happening. I will say that agencies that seek the CALEA accreditation can't have service weapons older than 4 yrs so if they update to new handguns they may as well switch.
Hmmmmm. Not sure about this info. My agency hooked up with CALEA last year, our commissioner I'd even in the national board, but we've had our "new" duty pistols about 5 or 6 years now.

As for the PSP and their GAP, face it. That round is dead or dying. It was a gimmicky attempt at fixing a problem that wasn't really affecting many people. The poster above mentioned that the GAP mimics the .45 ACP, so why not use the more popular, easier to find, field tested, veteran approved, doctor recommended round?
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Old 11-18-2012, 15:32   #44
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Oh hell, just issue DE in .50AE and be done with it. While we are at it swap out the .22 varmint rifle AR's and go w/ a solid .375 H&H. Now when someone gets popped there will be no lame trip to the ER.
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Old 11-18-2012, 18:30   #45
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Wish Glock would make a 45acp the same size as the S&W M&P full size double-stack
It's smaller than the G21 and easier to conceal carry.
G30sf ?
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Old 11-18-2012, 18:32   #46
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G21sf would be ideal.
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Old 11-18-2012, 20:51   #47
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Here in TN the State Police (Troopers) switched from G22 to G31 a few years back..I was told the 357Sig was better at penetrating Car doors and windshields...

I like the 45acp myself...
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Old 11-18-2012, 21:44   #48
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G30sf ?
Yep, your right on.
But, I was just holding a S&W M&P45 a hour ago, and it felt good.
About the same size as a M&P40.
4.5" barrel, 10 round mags.
It feels much smaller than the G21.
It's a full size gun, but streamlined enough to carry easily.
Most of all, it has a 4.5" barrel, like the G21, which gives a big 230gr bullet enough speed to do the job.

Last edited by "Cold Dead Hands" !; 11-18-2012 at 23:09..
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Old 11-19-2012, 00:36   #49
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It is not only about testing the weapon for function, reliability, etc. It is important for large police agencies to test the prospective weapons with the people who will be issued same weapons. For example, the strong shooters, the weak shooters, the males with large hands, the females with small hands, patrol units, investigative units, etc. The weapon has to be a "fit" for the people using it. Not to test the weapons in this manner would be irresponsible.
And to add, testing for fit in holsters with summer gear, winter gear, teams that serve other purposes outside of classic "road patrol" (ESU/Rescue/SWAT), testing with flashlights, testing for fit on a belt that already has/needs 5-8 other items there, testing with gloves, etc.

A study on a flat piece of paper is great, but most of us don't buy even the most mundane of products without some hands on time with the product. We check out furniture, cars, beds, gloves, eyeglasses, etc.

What says a dept that is telling it's officers about a critical piece of gear they may have to, and in many cases, will have to roll the fate of their lives on?


Would you (not you 4949) be cool with buying and using a parachute because another agency tested it extensively? NOT ME!
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Old 11-19-2012, 03:23   #50
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Would you (not you 4949) be cool with buying and using a parachute because another agency tested it extensively? NOT ME!
Me neither!
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