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Old 11-16-2012, 11:32   #76
Billy10mm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
Sorry but outside of penetration, I don't see what the 10mm does that the .40 doesn't already do for all practical purposes.
And penetration is the only part I care about. I want as much of it as I can get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOH212
It's a good cartridge in it's own right but I can't justify the cost and recoil when the .40 or .45 does everything I need them to do without the cost, recoil, bulk, and the sever potential for over penetration.
There is no such thing as "over penetration" with handgun rounds. Any handgun caliber bullet that passes THROUGH a human being gives us a GREAT amount of energy in doing so. It never ceases to amaze me how often this concept of "over penetration" comes up despite the fact that in my 14 years of shooting and being a member of multiple gun-centric internet forums, despite clicking on literally thousands of provided links to local shootings/murders/gun-related events - I've never ONCE read about an actual situation where a handgun-caliber bullet passed through someone COM and still managed to injure someone behind the initial victim. Despite this, there is at least one thread per day where SOMEONE feels like they have to use the term "over penetration".

Let's make this clear: "Over Penetration" is a term coined by people who've chosen a relatively "smaller" caliber firearm for any number of reasons, who wish not to be seen as "wimpy". I feel that .38s and 9mms have their place with benefits like concealment, low-recoil, cost to train, and most importantly, capacity. But since I live in NY and capacity is a moot point (I'm limited to no more than 10 round magazines for any weapon), I'll take 10+1 rounds of physically larger and deeper-penetrating 10mm over 9mm every day of the week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOH212
To sum it up, my personal feeling on the 10mm is it's too much for the two legged critters and too little for the four legged ones. Too much in one case and not (or barely) enough in the other. I just never saw what the 10mm could do for me that cartridges slightly larger or slightly smaller couldn't do already.

The 10mm was a solution in search of a problem and was more of a bastard round than the .40 S&W IMHO.
I like the 10mm because it has the same OAL as a .45ACP which means it fits in those handguns (for instance the 1911, a favored platform of mine) and has significantly more energy and penetration than a .40S&W which already has a penetration advantage over .45ACP.

Also, I don't like wasting things. Putting a short-cased 9mm or .40S&W in a platform like a 1911 designed for a cartridge with a 1.275" OAL is like putting a .38-special into a .357 revolver. Sure, you can do it, but why give up all that potential, especially when the heavy weight of the 1911 platform does so much to reduce the recoil (full power 10mm loads out of my 5" 1911 feel remarkably similar to full power .40S&W loads out of my Glock 23). I'm getting off track here, but that's why I prefer the 10mm.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:38   #77
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Re-reading my above post - it sounds as if I'm putting down smaller calibers. I am not. In fact, I think the Glock 19 is one of the greatest firearms ever and would still have mine (it was my first firearm) if I didn't consolidate calibers a few years back.

My post was not meant to attack smaller calibers but to defend larger ones. That "over-penetration" term is thrown about so often around here one starts to feel like others are looking at them as being irresponsible and I fear that new-comers to our sport/hobby might end up being turned away from the idea of a larger caliber for reasons that aren't sound.

Apologies.
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Old 11-16-2012, 13:10   #78
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Originally Posted by Billy10mm View Post
Re-reading my above post - it sounds as if I'm putting down smaller calibers. I am not. In fact, I think the Glock 19 is one of the greatest firearms ever and would still have mine (it was my first firearm) if I didn't consolidate calibers a few years back.

My post was not meant to attack smaller calibers but to defend larger ones. That "over-penetration" term is thrown about so often around here one starts to feel like others are looking at them as being irresponsible and I fear that new-comers to our sport/hobby might end up being turned away from the idea of a larger caliber for reasons that aren't sound.

Apologies.
So true. We expect ammo makers to make cartridges that will deliver a bullet to the back-side skin of an attacker and not an inch farther. I am happy to use a round that is known to "overpenetrate" because of the wound channel along the way through the target.
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Old 11-16-2012, 18:40   #79
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Originally Posted by JW1178 View Post
Did you just say too much power and mention a handgun cartrige in the same sentence? God forbid using a 12g, that's too much power!!!
Exactly. I love these gt threads... First they'll all blather about how a handgun is too weak, then they'll tell you 10mm is too strong...

Bottom line... My 155 grain underwood 10mm is putting out practically 2x the kinetic energy of the average 45.... In all honestly they aren't even in the same ball park

Hot 10mm is so vastly ballistically superior to 45acp that it isn't even worth discussing. Not saying you need all that power, but the power is there nevertheless.
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Old 11-16-2012, 18:41   #80
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78 posts on caliber confusion ..

If you shoot any creature on earth in the face, it will tend to leave you alone.

PUP
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Old 11-16-2012, 19:57   #81
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If you shoot any creature on earth in the face, it will tend to leave you alone.

PUP
THAT is good info!
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Old 11-16-2012, 20:13   #82
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If you shoot any creature on earth in the face, it will tend to leave you alone.

PUP
Funny
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Old 11-16-2012, 21:13   #83
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Depends on what the creature is and what you shoot it with. It might decide to eff your day up.
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:27   #84
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If you can't get it done with a rifle, better call in an airstrike.
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:14   #85
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Originally Posted by Billy10mm View Post
There is no such thing as "over penetration" with handgun rounds.


That's the best joke I've heard in a long time! Thanks for the laugh!


I won't even waste my time with the rest of your post. No offense but you really need to do your research and homework before making statements like that.

Go up to GATE and inquire to Mas about overpenetration and handgun bullets.

You will become enlightened to the fact that not only is it possible, it's very real, has happened many times, and there are many people dead and in jail because of it.
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:18   #86
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Originally Posted by JW1178 View Post
Did you just say too much power and mention a handgun cartridge in the same sentence? God forbid using a 12g, that's too much power!!!
Did I say power or penetration?


Did you misread what I wrote or did you read what you thought I meant?





For that matter did you even read my post?




If you did read my post than you missed my point either accidentally or on purpose.





Nevermind.........
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:45   #87
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9mm for flexibility.

.45 is the undisputed king of manstoppers.
I mostly agree!
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:43   #88
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If you shoot anyone COM with any hand gun cal, they will die!.....the big question is how soon will they die. Will they live long enough to kill you then die 3 days later from a massive infection and blood loss, or 10 seconds after that GSW stops their heart from working as a pump?
Also if I'm standing 10 feet away from you and shoot you in the forehead, does it make any difference what cal. I use? Most likely not!
Carry what you can carry and shoot accurately. there is no way my wife can carry and shoot accurately a 50 AE Desert eagle......but she's a bad ass with that .38 J frame.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:07   #89
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Originally Posted by Billy10mm View Post
There is no such thing as "over penetration" with handgun rounds. Any handgun caliber bullet that passes THROUGH a human being gives us a GREAT amount of energy in doing so. It never ceases to amaze me how often this concept of "over penetration" comes up despite the fact that in my 14 years of shooting and being a member of multiple gun-centric internet forums, despite clicking on literally thousands of provided links to local shootings/murders/gun-related events - I've never ONCE read about an actual situation where a handgun-caliber bullet passed through someone COM and still managed to injure someone behind the initial victim. Despite this, there is at least one thread per day where SOMEONE feels like they have to use the term "over penetration".
So because YOU'VE never heard about it, it's never happened? As NEOH212 says, go ask Mas Ayoob about the cases he has documented where innocents HAVE BEEN KILLED by passthroughs through bad guys. It's happened. Mas is in the GATES Self-Defense forum and responds to all messages usually within hours. We're looking forward to seeing your question for him posted there.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/arch...?t-302002.html

And what makes you think that a round that goes 24" in gel wouldn't still have a GREAT DEAL of energy left after going the first 10-12"? Obviously it does if it's still going another 14". Geez, doesn't anyone have logical and critical thinking skills any more??

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Old 11-17-2012, 11:09   #90
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If you shoot anyone COM with any hand gun cal, they will die
People get shot all the time COM (and sometimes multiple times) and survive.

I seriously wonder sometimes if you people are joking and I just don't get the punchline.

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Old 11-17-2012, 11:40   #91
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And what makes you think that a round that goes 24" in gel wouldn't still have a GREAT DEAL of energy left after going the first 10-12"? Obviously it does if it's still going another 14". Geez, doesn't anyone have logical and critical thinking skills any more??
One reason I don't like slow moving, heavy for caliber bullets. If it fails to expand it will penetrate essentially like a FMJ and have a high sectional density.
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Old 11-17-2012, 14:13   #92
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Have carried all the above calibers for self defense, LEO duty, Security, even as a BUG for hunting.
For multiple aggressors, a 15 rd mag does equalize the playing field. 9mm, 40 cal, and 45 all fit the bill. The 38 spec fits for a great home defense, or CCW for shooters who don't want the semi auto.
The Magnums(357, 44, 41) all have their niche and as a outdoor application you should match your need to supply.
As for the last, 45 acp, or 45 LC, I would carry either as both are multi purpose. It is a known man stopper, and 1911 started the roll call.
Keep shooting, be safe, and good luck.
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Old 11-17-2012, 15:02   #93
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People get shot all the time COM (and sometimes multiple times) and survive.

I seriously wonder sometimes if you people are joking and I just don't get the punchline.
I'd like to read the doctor's report of the wound channels in question on people who have been shot multiple times COM.

I bet that the description would often include reports of shallow bullet penetration and/or missed aorta or vital organs.

I know about the reduced capabilities of handgun bullets, so I am ready to use all 17 of my 9mm +p+ 115gr bullets if I ever need to shoot an attacker.
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Old 11-17-2012, 15:26   #94
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I've got a family of 5 living on the other side of 2 sheets of drywall. Skinny meth-heads couldn't contain many high power handgun rounds and the drywall sure won't either. Misses happen under stress. I'm responsible for them all.
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Old 11-17-2012, 17:00   #95
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These are all theoretical discussions and are all based on once feelings and or what type of weapons they carry.
My choice has been the .45 acp for over 20 years in various guns and I feel as good and protected by it as the first day.
Actually even more so with the advancements made in bullets.
Which is also one of the arguments I read that the 9mm has come such a long way due to the advancements in bullet design but at the same time these same people don't acknowledge the same advancements in all other calibers too.

on the other hand when having to go in deep concealment I even use a .380 acp and feel fine and protected too.
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Old 11-17-2012, 17:02   #96
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I've got a family of 5 living on the other side of 2 sheets of drywall. Skinny meth-heads couldn't contain many high power handgun rounds and the drywall sure won't either. Misses happen under stress. I'm responsible for them all.
You are right, I too live in an apartment and this is a real concern as you are responsible for every round that comes out of your gun.
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Old 11-17-2012, 17:38   #97
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Greetings everyone,

I missed the .40/10mm thing, what I mean is I don't own either one of these pistols. I do have a 380, 9mm, 38 special, 357 magnum, .45 & a .44 magnum. I have nothing against either one, as a matter of fact one of these days I'm going to have to pick these up for some reloading, I'm collecting a ton of brass for each.

What is enlightening about this discussion is the diversity of firearms and everyone's particular use for what they own. My neighbors are not very close to me so over penitration is not that much of an issue where as like in FishyOne's case... "I've got a family of 5 living on the other side of 2 sheets of drywall. Skinny meth-heads couldn't contain many high power handgun rounds and the drywall sure won't either. Misses happen under stress. I'm responsible for them all." I think this is nothing short of brilliant insight!

I personally carry and practice with a G19 & G26 as my EDC, Although I may not agree with OP's opinion about "If you can't kill it with a 9mm...", my opinion is that the object is not to kill but to stop the treat, and a 9mm with do that quite well.

I just wanted to make this observation this far into this tread. Great conversation by all.

By the way... just between me - you - and the lamp post... I like the .40 over the 10mm any day.
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Old 11-17-2012, 21:44   #98
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I've got a family of 5 living on the other side of 2 sheets of drywall. Skinny meth-heads couldn't contain many high power handgun rounds and the drywall sure won't either. Misses happen under stress. I'm responsible for them all.
Have you ever thought about putting up bookcases along that wall? Either that or something else that would stop a bullet from passing through into their apartment in the event someone broke into your apartment and needed some shooting?
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Old 11-17-2012, 21:49   #99
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Greetings everyone,

I missed the .40/10mm thing, what I mean is I don't own either one of these pistols. I do have a 380, 9mm, 38 special, 357 magnum, .45 & a .44 magnum. I have nothing against either one, as a matter of fact one of these days I'm going to have to pick these up for some reloading, I'm collecting a ton of brass for each.

What is enlightening about this discussion is the diversity of firearms and everyone's particular use for what they own. My neighbors are not very close to me so over penitration is not that much of an issue where as like in FishyOne's case... "I've got a family of 5 living on the other side of 2 sheets of drywall. Skinny meth-heads couldn't contain many high power handgun rounds and the drywall sure won't either. Misses happen under stress. I'm responsible for them all." I think this is nothing short of brilliant insight!

I personally carry and practice with a G19 & G26 as my EDC, Although I may not agree with OP's opinion about "If you can't kill it with a 9mm...", my opinion is that the object is not to kill but to stop the treat, and a 9mm with do that quite well.

I just wanted to make this observation this far into this tread. Great conversation by all.

By the way... just between me - you - and the lamp post... I like the .40 over the 10mm any day.
I've backed off a little from the position originally taken in this thread. What I meant was, if you shoot someone multiple times center mass with a 9mm and they aren't stopping, a .45 isn't gonna magically drop them. It's probably more of a shot placement issue or an issue of needing a 12 guage with 9 pellets of 00 buckshot.

If you can shoot a .45 just as well as a 9mm, then you should consider carrying it instead. However, if you cannot or maybe just prefer to have 15 rounds in the mag instead of 10 or whatever, then the 9mm is what you want.
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:16   #100
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Shot Placement! I have see a BG shot with several 40's and 45's, ranger'T ammo. all hits were around COM and thighs. He stopped....but he is fine.

Another BG pulled an airsoft on an officer. Officer shot back with 45, Ranger-T, bg's puffy coat must have plugged up the hollow point, did minimal damage, passing through the torso. Survived.

Another BG shot in a car with 9mm RA9T. One hit. Good shot placement, this BG bled out quickly and did not survive.

Anther BG shot with 45 RangerT and 9mm Gold Dot 147. Again, low abdomen and leg shots. Although.....one leg shot was high inside thigh, I believe it hit an artery, bled badly. I had to hold direct pressure on that one.....The cool part...I didnt want to stare at his crotch the entire time, so I looked around and saw, the expanded 45 and partially expanded 9mm lying on the ground right under and around the BG! Not so cool part....he peed on my hand, fortunaltely i was wearing gloves, and it was cold outside, sooooooo.....

I like the 9mm, 40 and 45. It's all about shot placement. Sometimes the hollow points work, sometimes they dont. **** happens.

I have choice between calibers. In my research and testing and experience, I believe they all work about the same. In watching ammo reps shooting gel blocks...they all work about the same. There are so many good choices.

My choice? 9mm. I shoot it better than the others. I will not poo-poo another's choice, because I'm a gun nut and I still like them all. All good choices.
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